Peter The Rock
- Thread starter Mungo
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
Here is what the experts say:
Strong's Concordance
kaleó: to call
Original Word: καλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kaleó
Phonetic Spelling: (kal-eh'-o)
Definition: to call
Usage: (a) I call, summon, invite, (b) I call, name.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
to call
NASB Translation
call (13), called (99), calling (2), calls (7), give (1), invite (2), invited (15), invited guests (1), invites (1), name given (1), named (2), so-called (1), summoned (2).
Matthew 4:18
[ The Calling of the First Disciples ] As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
Simon was already called Peter.
Who did Christ want to honor, The Father, or Peter?
God or Man at the head of the congregation.
Didn't we just have this conversation recently?
1. First, remember, the same word can be used to mean and denote different things. "Lord" in the NT can be a reference to God, but the same Greek word can also simply mean "master" or a title of respect like addressing someone as "Sir." Only context can tell us which use is intended.
2. Second, the fact remains that BOTH Jesus and Peter are called "rock/stone" in the NT. But this is not a contradiction, because the same word is used to convey two entirely different meanings. Jesus is the ROCK---the chief cornerstone. The foundation. Peter is not. True enough, Jesus still did call Peter a "rock" and did indeed say that on "this rock" (Peter) "I will build My church"---but it's still Christ's church, not Peter's. Christ is still the Rock, the foundation, the chief cornerstone. Peter is a "rock," but he's not the Rock.
So, hopefully everyone can at least get on the same page in regards to that (though I'm not holding my breath
). Hopefully, we can at least all agree that (1) BOTH Peter & Christ are referred to as "rock" in the NT; and (2) That Jesus is the Rock, the chief cornerstone, the foundation of the Church. It is not the church of Peter. It is still Christ's Church. Christ's Church is founded on Christ Himself. (3) Jesus still did say that on "this rock (Peter) I will build My Church," so that's the relevant part of the debate: figuring out what Jesus meant by that.
*If we can find agreement on that (again, not holding my breath), then that helps clarify the discussion. And the question is no longer "Did Jesus say on this "rock" (Peter) I will build MY Church?"---yes, Jesus did say that, and in the very next verse says He will give Peter "the keys of the Kingdom." So, the 'real' question is "What did Jesus mean by that?" What did Jesus mean by "keys of the Kingdom." That's the harder question that is still up for debate (and that, unfortunately, I can't imagine anyone ever agreeing on!).
1. First, remember, the same word can be used to mean and denote different things. "Lord" in the NT can be a reference to God, but the same Greek word can also simply mean "master" or a title of respect like addressing someone as "Sir." Only context can tell us which use is intended.
2. Second, the fact remains that BOTH Jesus and Peter are called "rock/stone" in the NT. But this is not a contradiction, because the same word is used to convey two entirely different meanings. Jesus is the ROCK---the chief cornerstone. The foundation. Peter is not. True enough, Jesus still did call Peter a "rock" and did indeed say that on "this rock" (Peter) "I will build My church"---but it's still Christ's church, not Peter's. Christ is still the Rock, the foundation, the chief cornerstone. Peter is a "rock," but he's not the Rock.
So, hopefully everyone can at least get on the same page in regards to that (though I'm not holding my breath
). Hopefully, we can at least all agree that (1) BOTH Peter & Christ are referred to as "rock" in the NT; and (2) That Jesus is the Rock, the chief cornerstone, the foundation of the Church. It is not the church of Peter. It is still Christ's Church. Christ's Church is founded on Christ Himself. (3) Jesus still did say that on "this rock (Peter) I will build My Church," so that's the relevant part of the debate: figuring out what Jesus meant by that.*If we can find agreement on that (again, not holding my breath), then that helps clarify the discussion. And the question is no longer "Did Jesus say on this "rock" (Peter) I will build MY Church?"---yes, Jesus did say that, and in the very next verse says He will give Peter "the keys of the Kingdom." So, the 'real' question is "What did Jesus mean by that?" What did Jesus mean by "keys of the Kingdom." That's the harder question that is still up for debate (and that, unfortunately, I can't imagine anyone ever agreeing on!).
You are right. We cannot agree on this.Didn't we just have this conversation recently?
1. First, remember, the same word can be used to mean and denote different things. "Lord" in the NT can be a reference to God, but the same Greek word can also simply mean "master" or a title of respect like addressing someone as "Sir." Only context can tell us which use is intended.
2. Second, the fact remains that BOTH Jesus and Peter are called "rock/stone" in the NT. But this is not a contradiction, because the same word is used to convey two entirely different meanings. Jesus is the ROCK---the chief cornerstone. The foundation. Peter is not. True enough, Jesus still did call Peter a "rock" and did indeed say that on "this rock" (Peter) "I will build My church"---but it's still Christ's church, not Peter's. Christ is still the Rock, the foundation, the chief cornerstone. Peter is a "rock," but he's not the Rock.
So, hopefully everyone can at least get on the same page in regards to that (though I'm not holding my breath
*If we can find agreement on that (again, not holding my breath), then that helps clarify the discussion. And the question is no longer "Did Jesus say on this "rock" (Peter) I will build MY Church?"---yes, Jesus did say that, and in the very next verse says He will give Peter "the keys of the Kingdom." So, the 'real' question is "What did Jesus mean by that?" What did Jesus mean by "keys of the Kingdom." That's the harder question that is still up for debate (and that, unfortunately, I can't imagine anyone ever agreeing on!).
A cornerstone is not the foundation on which a building is built. It is the stone at the corner (hence the name ) on which the building is aligned.
Paul writes about this:
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; (Eph 2:19-21)
Just throwing this out there. There's another way to look at this and I know the Catholic church disagrees with me and likewise, I disagree with the Catholic church. I have engaged in this argument before and it is likely neither side will change their minds.
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:15-18 NKJV
I believe that when Jesus said, "On this rock I will build My church," He was not speaking of the man, Peter, but the revelation that Peter received from the Father.
In ancient times, the cornerstone was part of the foundation (the bottom most layer of stones on which the rest of the building rests). In fact, it was the first stone of the foundation that they often dedicated in special ceremonies. Hence, why Ephesians says the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone (the first stone) of that foundation. As a metaphor it of course means the part of the building that's of greatest importance and upon which everything else depends.
Last edited:
The problem with this is that St. Peter was not the first to reveal and identify who Christ is. It was actually St. Peter's brother, St. Andrew, along with Nathaniel, who first made this revelation and proclamation of who Christ is...
"... Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter. He, first of all, found his own brother Simon, and told him, 'We have discovered the Messias, which means, the Christ'". (John 1:40-41)
"Then Nathaniel answered him, 'Thou, Master, art the Son of God.'" (John 1:49)
Yet neither of these men, who are the first to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah and Son of God, are declared to be the rock.
Yes, there is. A Greek commentary on Ephesians will have comprehensive review of the ancient understanding.
But the context itself makes it very clear what is intended:
"19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
Christ is the "chief cornerstone." Whatever "chief cornerstone" means it's clear that we're meant to understand that in Christ Jesus "the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord."
I said in ancient times the cornerstone was part of the foundation and the first stone laid and that as a metaphor it's the part of the building of greatest importance on which everything else depends, and that's true. But that's also the sense conveyed by the verse that in Christ Jesis "the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord." Clearly everything else depends on Jesus Christ and he is of greatest importance
I don't think anyone would deny that everything depends on Jesus and he is of the greatest importance.
But that take nothing away from Peter being the Rock on which Jesus built his Church.
Thank you for your comment. And that's where I was heading and what I was advocating. We can't deny that Jesus is THE ROCK. But we also can't deny that Jesus really did call Peter rock and said on this rock Peter He would build his church. The Protestant argument that what Jesus was actually saying was just calling Peter "a little stone" (petros) and saying that on Himself (petra) ("rock") He would build His church (on Himself), doesn't work. And I say that as a Protestant!
In Aramaic the word is the same: "Thou [Peter] art kefa (rock/stone) and on this kefa (rock/stone) I will build My church"---the play on words is unmistakable. The Greek: "Thou are petros and on this petra I will build My church"--is the only way to translate the Aramaic into Greek while still maintaining the pun/word play. And since rock is a feminine noun in Greek with a feminine ending (petr-a), and you can't designate a male that way (hence, the masculine petr-os), that doesn't mean Jesus wasn't calling Peter rock, it's just the only way to say it by the rules of Greek grammar.
So, both Jesus and Peter are referred to as rock, but completely different things are meant by it. Jesus is still THE ROCK but Peter was given a special, unique founding role as "this rock" upon which Christ would build His church.
Now what precisely "upon this rock" and "keys of the kingdom" mean, and whether that contains apostolic succession, and whether that succession is centrally (through the primacy of the bishop of Rome) or the Eastern Orthodox view that local churches with a bishop function as the See of Peter (if I used that correctly), or no apostolic succession at all (as in the Protestant view), I don't pretend to be educated enough to enter into such a conversation, so will have to bow out of the convo at that point.
But I at least hope everyone can agree by now that Jesus did, in fact, designate Peter "this rock" upon which He would build His church and that saying this in no way threatens or displaces Jesus as THE ROCK and chief cornerstone the church is founded on.
So Jesus Christ is the rock of ages the rock of salvation! Amen!
But Christ the only one with authority to build a church builds on Peter and the apostles and their successors the bishops in every place and time
Why is Peter even mentioned?
Why does Jesus change His name?
Why does Jesus say Peter is blessed?
Why does Jesus give Peter the keys of the kingdom (jurisdictional authority)
Why does Jesus give Peter power to bind and loose?
Why does scripture say God chose Peter? Acts 15:7
What does Peter standing up signify? Acts 1:15 & 15:7
But Christ the only one with authority to build a church builds on Peter and the apostles and their successors the bishops in every place and time
Why is Peter even mentioned?
Why does Jesus change His name?
Why does Jesus say Peter is blessed?
Why does Jesus give Peter the keys of the kingdom (jurisdictional authority)
Why does Jesus give Peter power to bind and loose?
Why does scripture say God chose Peter? Acts 15:7
What does Peter standing up signify? Acts 1:15 & 15:7
Peter always first and singled out!
Leader of the apostles!
Appointed by Christ the Head of the church on earth in Christ’s place till He returns in glory!
Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Peter receives revelation from the father!
Matt 16:16-17
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Peter receives the keys of the kingdom (jurisdictional authority) to govern the church in Christ’s place till he returns in glory!
Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jn 20:2 to Peter
Peter takes charge!
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said,
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter works miracles
Acts3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Peter moved by the power of the Spirit, special anointing!
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Peter always first:
Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Peter again:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Peter first always singled out:
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
God made choice among the apostles who would act in the person of Christ and govern His church on earth!
PETER!
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Note:
Judas already dead, Paul does not become an apostle till acts 9,
Without apostolic succession how are there 12 apostles acts 2:14 Peter and the eleven?
Leader of the apostles!
Appointed by Christ the Head of the church on earth in Christ’s place till He returns in glory!
Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Peter receives revelation from the father!
Matt 16:16-17
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Peter receives the keys of the kingdom (jurisdictional authority) to govern the church in Christ’s place till he returns in glory!
Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jn 20:2 to Peter
Peter takes charge!
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said,
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter works miracles
Acts3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Peter moved by the power of the Spirit, special anointing!
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Peter always first:
Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Peter again:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Peter first always singled out:
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
God made choice among the apostles who would act in the person of Christ and govern His church on earth!
PETER!
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Note:
Judas already dead, Paul does not become an apostle till acts 9,
Without apostolic succession how are there 12 apostles acts 2:14 Peter and the eleven?
And Christ did, although that doesn't mean there was some structured institutionalized organization with today's version of a "bishop." The early church appointed "bishops/leaders" sure enough, but as servants, overseers to help local "church" assemblies of believers that met in homes
not always.
Peter was the leader of the Church at Jerusalem at the outset, but James takes over that position. Peter may have been viewed as James’s superior at the outset, but by the time Paul wrote Gal. 2:9 it is James that gets first billing, ahead of Peter. There Paul refers to the so-called Pillars of the Church which he names as: James, Peter, and John.
They could have stayed with 11 apostles. They could have gone with 13 or more, but (Acts 1 shows that) they chose to replace Judas by casting lots so as to return the group to 12 in number. “Succession” suggests that a replacement was installed over and over again, but there is no record of anyone replacing Matthias or of anyone replacing any of the other 11. This isn’t surprising as the requirements for membership in the 12 was: a man who had been with the 11 the whole time that the Lord Jesus was living among them, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up to heaven. As such, there could be no successors to the 12 once those alive (throughout Jesus’s ministry) had all died. Apostolic succession, if it was a thing, ceased with the first generation.
God always establishes peace and by obedience to hierarchical authority!
There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!
The angelic kingdom:
The civil gov:
The church:
The family:
All are ordered with obedience to hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!
Hierarchical nature of the new covenant church:
If you agree that Christ is the head of the church then you have consented to the fact there is a hierarchical nature of the new covenant church!
God is the head of Christ:
Christ is the head of the church:
Peter has the role of representing Christ here in earth, visible head, and the apostles / bishops their successors and those they ordain for ministry in union with Peter administer the kingdom, govern the church, teach and sanctify all men, the lay people or nations!
Spiritual anarchy produces spiritual chaos just look at the 25000 sects all full of errors and contradictions that came out of Luther’s little experiment!
The fruits of the reformation:
Atheism and the so-called enlightenment (reason without faith)
Fundamentalism (faith without reason)
Modernism (subjective changing truth)
And a Spirit of confusion / chaos
There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!
The angelic kingdom:
The civil gov:
The church:
The family:
All are ordered with obedience to hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!
Hierarchical nature of the new covenant church:
If you agree that Christ is the head of the church then you have consented to the fact there is a hierarchical nature of the new covenant church!
God is the head of Christ:
Christ is the head of the church:
Peter has the role of representing Christ here in earth, visible head, and the apostles / bishops their successors and those they ordain for ministry in union with Peter administer the kingdom, govern the church, teach and sanctify all men, the lay people or nations!
Spiritual anarchy produces spiritual chaos just look at the 25000 sects all full of errors and contradictions that came out of Luther’s little experiment!
The fruits of the reformation:
Atheism and the so-called enlightenment (reason without faith)
Fundamentalism (faith without reason)
Modernism (subjective changing truth)
And a Spirit of confusion / chaos