Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell

[phatdawg]

The timing and positioning of the Kings and Priests in the book of Revelation is peculiar in relation to this subject in the book of Revelations.

All the overcomers have been glorified. All the wicked have been nicely put away in the Lake of Fire. Yet, the overcomers are to be kings and priests unto our God, and they shall reigh a thousand years.

Crucial question: Did the office and responsibilities of a priest suddenly change here at this time? There is no reason to believe so. The root responsibilities of a priest have always been intercession. That being so, who, pray tell, are they interceding for?

Where is Jesus in this picture? Well, He is in the midst of the Lake of Fire with all His Holy Angels.

Ok, but what is the job of an angel? It is to be a minister to them who are the heirs of salvation. They have other jobs, but in whatever they do, it is for the sake of those who are the heirs of salvation.

Ok, but who are these heirs of salvation that the angels are ministering to?

And who is it that the overcomers are interceding for?

And just what in the world is Jesus doing in this picture in the Lake of Fire?

The answer to the first two questions is "those who are in the Lake of Fire".
The answer to the third question is the same thing Jesus has always been doing: Seeking and saving that which was lost.

The Bible is once again a seamless, congruous whole.

 

[cj]

The timing and positioning of the Kings and Priests in the book of Revelation is peculiar in relation to this subject in the book of Revelations.

All the overcomers have been glorified. All the wicked have been nicely put away in the Lake of Fire. Yet, the overcomers are to be kings and priests unto our God, and they shall reigh a thousand years.

This is perhaps one of the crucial misunderstandings within Christianity.... overcomers are not the entire church, that is, up until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, at which time, all believer apart from those who are referred to as overcomers, having suffered the discipline of the Lord.... in which they are found gnashing their teeth...... will join the overcomers and together make up the Bride that becomes one with the Lord, and is manifested as the New Jerusalem.

The entire believing body, together with the Head, is the city, called the New Jerusalem. But during the thousand year reign of Christ, only those who have overcome during their life on this earth, will reign with Christ in His millennium reign. This is the reward for overcoming in this lifetime.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Read your Bible, Free.

I did, and it disagrees with you.

You'd think so huh.


Ahhhh Free, to be so quietly.... trenchant.

My hero.

In love,
cj

 

[phatdawg]

Cj,
Surely you misunderstand what I said. I never said the Overcomers were the whole church. Not once did I say that. I wouldn't say that because I don't believe it to be the truth.

 

[cj]

Cj,
Surely you misunderstand what I said. I never said the Overcomers were the whole church. Not once did I say that. I wouldn't say that because I don't believe it to be the truth.

Forgive me Phatdawg... I did struggle with understanding what you were saying and should have asked you to clarify before jumping the gun.

I have seen some speaking from the UR camp about the matter of overcomers and I thought your speaking was following this line.

I'm all ears, tell me what you meant.

In love,
cj

 

[guibox]

Okay. Can we get back on topic here. Let's not make this a universalist vs the world thread.

I still have yet to hear a traditionalist refute the arguments above. At least even with merely an opinion. Apparently they find these concerns relevant but would rather hang on to the fact that "it must be true so I have to deal with it". I guess that is why most preachers don't stand up and preach fire and brimstone. It is hard for Christians to see a loving God in that, especially when they look at their 'lost' family.

To try and just say, "oh well" can only eventually sear our conscience or we'd go mad thinking about it.

 

[Dean]

Can we get back on topic here. Let's not make this a universalist vs the world thread.

I tried, guibox.

 

[Free]

guibox,

How am I being selective? The context of explaining some of these terms must be looked at in association with others. Where is your disputations on these matters? Where is it wrongly applied? To ignore the context is to misapply the meaning.

Matt. 25:46, "'These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'"

Either both literally mean "eternal," or both don't. The same word used in the same verse, which puts them in the same context.

Rev. 14:11, "'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name'" (See also Rev. 20:10).

Emphatic even. How can this simply be referring to a period of time?

You have provided no reason as to why one should interpret aionios as "eternal" for the righteous and "a temporary period of time" for the unrighteous.

And you get this from where?

Rev. 20:4-6,15.

The first resurrection is the resurrection when Christ comes. Those that 'sleep in Jesus' will be brought forth from the grave and reign with Christ a 1000 years. They are not reigning over anyone, nevermind the wicked. The wicked are then resurrected in the second resurrection where they are judged (Revelation 20:8,9)

Rev. 20:7-8, "7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore."

To reign, one must have something to reign over. One does not reign over nothing. You will notice that in verses 7 and 8, Satan is released from the Abyss for the purpose of deceiving the nations. Please tell me, who is Satan deceiving if no one is around? If all the wicked are dead already, as you have claimed, then who is it that gathers to battle one final time against God, those whose "number...is like the sand of the seashore"? That's a lot of non-beings, an aweful lot of nothing.

You now have two large problems: (1) Jesus and many martyrs are reigning over no one, and (2) Satan is released from his 1000 year captivity to deceive no one.

And there is yet another problem: verse 15 clearly states that "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." The very clear implication of this is that there are those in the second resurrection whose names are, in fact, written in the book of life.

You haven't, you can't.

I just did. :D

 

[guibox]

Matt. 25:46, "'These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'"

Either both literally mean "eternal," or both don't. The same word used in the same verse, which puts them in the same context.

Your biggest assumption here is that the wicked have immortality. They do not and the bible shows that they aremorta. Therefore you cannot have eternal torment with the wicked. If you looked at the 'aionios' thread, you'd see that the word used here 'aionios' means "age lasting", "an unspecified period of time". If that is the case we must look elsewhere for its context. We see that 'forever' is applied to 'as long as life lasts' when it applies to people.

Again compare this with the other verse "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". the more opposite these punishments are the better. You cannot have eternal life for the righteous and then 'eternal life for the wicked' when elsewhere their two fates contradict each other.

Eternal punishment, not punishing. The punishment is death and its results are eternal.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire - Jude 7

The are not burning now but it can never be rebuilt. Eternal here means in its results, not its duration.

Rev. 14:11, "'And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name'" (See also Rev. 20:10).

Hmm. Where have I read this before?

And the streams thereof shall be turned into piitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch...It shall not be quenched night nor day. The smoke thereof shall go up for ever from generation to generation it shall lie waste. None shall pass through it forever and ever - Isaiah 34:9, 10

We see the imagery here to describe the utter destruction of Edom. The language used here is the exact same as in Revelation. Obviously Edom is not burning now. The smoke going up forever and ever was to show the totality of its destruction. You cannot ignore the importance of Revelation using this language.

Other uses of 'unquenchable fire' and 'worm dieth not' are used in the OT as well to show complete destruction, not everlastin torment.

Rev. 20:7-8, "7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore."

To reign, one must have something to reign over. One does not reign over nothing. You will notice that in verses 7 and 8, Satan is released from the Abyss for the purpose of deceiving the nations. Please tell me, who is Satan deceiving if no one is around? If all the wicked are dead already, as you have claimed, then who is it that gathers to battle one final time against God, those whose "number...is like the sand of the seashore"? That's a lot of non-beings, an aweful lot of nothing.

So what you're saying is that there will be people (wicked) earth for a 1000 years? How is that possible when it says that the wicked shall be destroyed with the brightness of His coming"? Secondly, the Bible doesn't say that the righteous reigning are reigning on this earth. Rather we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 that we are caught up in the air to meet the Lord and Revelation says that we reign with Christ a thousand years. Then the New Jerusalem with the righteous in it comes down from heaven.

Your problem is that you are taking everything in Revelation 20 chronologically. You must be careful when doing so with symbolic literature.

And there is yet another problem: verse 15 clearly states that "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." The very clear implication of this is that there are those in the second resurrection whose names are, in fact, written in the book of life.

So some wicked are resurrected to life but other wicked go to the lake of fire at the second resurrection? That's not what the Bible says.

Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life. and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation - John 5:28,29

There are two resurrections. The first at His coming, the next at the end of the 1000 years. One is to life, the other to damnation (see also Daniel 12:2)

And verse 15 says that 'whosoever wasn't written in the book of life'. This is merely stating a fact according to the judgment. The righteous are in heaven because their names are written in the book. The wicked are not, therefore they are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Charlotte]

guibox,

What do you think the book of life is?

Charlotte

 

[Shana]

Greetings, both views, the view of God eternally tormenting or annihilation any one of His creatures who are said to be enslaved, deceived, and under the domain of Satan have major problems to me. I can understand how some have come to their conclusions based on what they see in the scriptures yet neither perspective upholds the agape love or power of God to me. In both instances God throws away those who need Him the most and the effects of sin and Satan will forever stain the creation of God. This means that darkness is able to defeat the purpose of God. God bless.

 

[phatdawg]

It's alright Cj. No harm done.
The point to my post was that there are things about this whole Lake of Fire scenario in the Book of Revelations that go unnoticed by a majority of people.
Unnoticed, unacknowledged or otherwise ignored.

 

[phatdawg]

Hi Shana,
I was just noticing earlier today that I hadn't seen or heard of you the past couple of days All is well I take it/

 

[Free]

guibox,

Your biggest assumption here is that the wicked have immortality. They do not and the bible shows that they aremorta.

Can you provide chapter and verse?

Therefore you cannot have eternal torment with the wicked. If you looked at the 'aionios' thread, you'd see that the word used here 'aionios' means "age lasting", "an unspecified period of time".

So, in other words, the interpretation of aionios as it relates to the unrighteous, is based on the presupposition that the unrighteous will not inherit immortality.

Again compare this with the other verse "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". the more opposite these punishments are the better. You cannot have eternal life for the righteous and then 'eternal life for the wicked' when elsewhere their two fates contradict each other.

Do you not understand the nuances of Scripture and what is actually being said? Eternal life for the believer is more than just "living for eternity," otherwise the whole notion becomes somewhat absurd. Eternal life means "having life to the full," the way it was meant to be lived, which is far beyond anything we experience here. It is living in complete, intimate union with God and experiencing all that that brings.

This does not preclude unbelievers from "living for eternity." They will be alive, but at the other end of the spectrum, at life's most base survival. They will be in torment, for eternity.

Eternal punishment, not punishing. The punishment is death and its results are eternal.

That's an interesting interpretation, but it is not supported by Scripture, which I suppose is why you haven't supported it yet.

The are not burning now but it can never be rebuilt. Eternal here means in its results, not its duration.

You are going beyond what the text is stating. Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example, "suffering the vengence of eternal fire." That's it, nothing more. Their destruction by fire serves as an example of what is to come, namely, "punishment of eternal fire."

We see the imagery here to describe the utter destruction of Edom. The language used here is the exact same as in Revelation. Obviously Edom is not burning now. The smoke going up forever and ever was to show the totality of its destruction. You cannot ignore the importance of Revelation using this language.

So then it is up to you to show where Scripture mentions this destruction of Edom. I did a quick check and didn't see anything. Has it even happened yet?

So what you're saying is that there will be people (wicked) earth for a 1000 years?

Yes.

Secondly, the Bible doesn't say that the righteous reigning are reigning on this earth.

Perhaps you should look up Dan. 7:27.

Your problem is that you are taking everything in Revelation 20 chronologically. You must be careful when doing so with symbolic literature.

It's a problem, is it? Perhaps you need to reread Rev. 20 and see that there is no mistaking my reading of it. I can see why you would use that argument since Rev. 20 devastates your position, but it is very chronological:

Rev. 20:2,3, "2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

20:4,5, "4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

20:7,8, "7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

20:9, "10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

See, there is no mistaking that: (1) at least some saints, martyrs, are resurrected in the first resurrection, (2) that there are unrighteous people very much alive and "well" on the earth, (3) these people are who the martyrs reign over, and (4) the beast and the false prophet are still in the lake of fire, being tormented.

So some wicked are resurrected to life but other wicked go to the lake of fire at the second resurrection? That's not what the Bible says.

No. Again your false presuppositions are getting in the way of a simple, plain reading of the text. As I have stated, Rev. 20 clearly shows that the first resurrection is that of the martyrs. There is a second resurrection where those whose names are not in the book of life go to the lake of fire. My point is that this implies there are those in the second resurrection who are believers, whose names are, in fact, written in the book of life.

But really, this point is moot and I don't see how either of our positions would change anything else in the discussion.

 

[Restin]

This Life...

Greetings, both views, the view of God eternally tormenting or annihilation any one of His creatures who are said to be enslaved, deceived, and under the domain of Satan have major problems to me. I can understand how some have come to their conclusions based on what they see in the scriptures yet neither perspective upholds the agape love or power of God to me. In both instances God throws away those who need Him the most and the effects of sin and Satan will forever stain the creation of God. This means that darkness is able to defeat the purpose of God. God bless. (emphasis/R)

Hi Shana,
Take another look ---

This life in the flesh, is the only 'heaven' the wicked enjoy.

• 
  Psalm 73:3 .... the prosperity of the wicked.
  4 For there are no pains in their death, And their body is fat.
  5 They are not in trouble as other men, Nor are they plagued like mankind.
  6 Therefore pride is their necklace; The garment of violence covers them.
  7 Their eye bulges from fatness; The imaginations of their heart run riot.
  12 Behold, these are the wicked; And always at ease, they have
  increased in wealth.
  
  Job 21:7 "Why do the wicked still live, Continue on, also become very powerful?
  8 "Their descendants are established with them in their sight,
  And their offspring before their eyes,
  9 Their houses are safe from fear, And the rod of God is not on them.
  
  Psalm 10:3 For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire,
  And the greedy man curses and spurns the LORD.
  4 The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance,
  does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, " There is no God."

Who is/are the biggest sinners?
Ezekiel 16 addresses 'Jerusalem' -- she is full of abominations.
Spiritually the 'Bride of Christ'. In Ezekiel 16, Jerusalem is the biggest sinner.
She had committed more sins, more abominations (v47) than Sodom and Samaria.
Read it over for yourself, it is something that the people of God are actually the
greatest sinners -- actually they have the 'greatest light' & knowledge of God.

To the Righteous --
God does bring discipline (cause grief) to his children.
The righteous are tried 'like gold' in the fire 7 times.
Go through hardships, prisons, beatings, abuses of all kinds.
'Strangers and pilgrims' -- as God draws them into His fellowship in this life.

• Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake,
  not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
  
  Lamentations 3:32 For if He causes grief,
  Then He will have compassion
  According to His abundant lovingkindness.
  33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve
  the sons of men.
  
  NASU, w/emphasis supplied

God Bless
......Restin

 

[Shana]

Hi Phatdawg, been very busy at school and fighting a bug. Hope that all is well with you!

Restin, take another look:

It has been revealed that God will have all, the wicked included.

Col. 1: "It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself"
No one is excluded. God will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. He will have all. One day the creation/creature itself is to be set free from the bondage to corruption and changed into the glorious freedom of the children to God. (Romans 8) Now, why do we think that a wicked heart of a deceived person is any match for the Kings of kings and Lord of lords???? Have a blessed day!!

 

[guibox]

Your biggest assumption here is that the wicked have immortality. They do not and the bible shows that they aremorta.

Can you provide chapter and verse?

Romans 6:23
John 3:16,17
John 6:40,47
John 11:22-26

If the ones who have eternal life and immortality (and no, Free, not just an 'abundant life' your argument there to explain eternal torment is a poor attempt at interpretation) are those who belief in God and receive His gift, then those who are wicked and do NOT believe in Christ receive the opposite. They are mortal as they have not there sins forgiven and still receive the wages of sin.

So, in other words, the interpretation of aionios as it relates to the unrighteous, is based on the presupposition that the unrighteous will not inherit immortality.

Yes. The word 'aoinios' cannot be taken as one meaning for everything. The word itself lends itself to different meanings "age lasting", "unspecified period of time". It does not mean 'forever and ever without end eternal'. It's application therefore is what lends it meaning.

This does not preclude unbelievers from "living for eternity." They will be alive, but at the other end of the spectrum, at life's most base survival. They will be in torment, for eternity.

You miss the usage of opposites in the scriptures. Light-darkness, sheep-goats, life-death. 'The wages of sin is eternal life..BUT the gift of God is eternal life'. That makes no sense, plus it negates the meaning of the words 'death' perishing' destruction and 'wasting away' which all describe the fate of the wicked. You cannot make death mean anything other than death. The Bible doesn't make these words mean 'torment forever', 'living in ruin' and 'existing miserably'. That is traditionalist necessity to make their theory fit the scriptures that show annihilation.

The are not burning now but it can never be rebuilt. Eternal here means in its results, not its duration.

You are going beyond what the text is stating. Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah are an example, "suffering the vengence of eternal fire." That's it, nothing more. Their destruction by fire serves as an example of what is to come, namely, "punishment of eternal fire."

And how is that exactly? The words used here are the same meaning as those in Revelation 20. How can these words mean two different things? Is S&G burning now? then how can you make eternal mean 'continuing forever without end'? You haven't explained that. If they suffered 'eternal fire' and that fire is an example of what is to come, then the 'eternal fire' must be explained the same. You cannot explain them two different ways with the same method. That is ignoring the linguistic usage and trying to make it fit your interpretation.

So then it is up to you to show where Scripture mentions this destruction of Edom. I did a quick check and didn't see anything. Has it even happened yet?

You're kidding right? Are you honestly that stubborn to hold on to your beliefs that you ignore plain truth in front of you? Verse 5 gives the Hebrew name 'Idumea'. So this verse means that God is going to punish Edom eternally in the future? I guess the onus now falls on you to prove this ridiculous assumption.

Is this the lengths traditionalists go to ignore and refute what they don't want to listen to?

I could list all the texts in the world that explain the ultimate death of the wicked. However, you obviously don't care to look at the plain truth, so why bother? You'd look at your meagre text or two and use that brush to paint the whole bible. Until you study the subject including the meanings and uses of the words 'soul' and 'spirit', you can make any excuse you want.

If you're not afraid of the truth, then I suggest you study it from the beginning. I have a paper I wrote (27 pages) dealing with all of these issues straight from the Bible. I present the mindset of the Hebrews and Christians concerning the state of the dead. It might help you understand the scriptures better in these regards rather than try to work out from a few ambiguous, metaphorical texts and build a theology around it.

It's your call.

In Christ,

guibox

 

[Restin]

All reconciled

Restin, take another look:

It has been revealed that God will have all, the wicked included.

Col. 1: "It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself"
No one is excluded. God will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. He will have all. One day the creation/creature itself is to be set free from the bondage to corruption and changed into the glorious freedom of the children to God. (Romans 8) Now, why do we think that a wicked heart of a deceived person is any match for the Kings of kings and Lord of lords???? Have a blessed day!!

• Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
  
  1 Corrinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
  
  NASU, w/emphasis supplied

The death of Christ reconciled -- paid the debt of sin for the whole world. However,
reconciliation does not save anyone. It is his resurrected life that which saves believers.

Peace & Blessings......Restin

 

[FineLinen]

The death of Christ reconciled -- paid the debt of sin for the whole world. However, reconciliation does not save anyone.

To Reconcile=

To cause to be friendly again.

To conciliate anew.

To restore to friendship.

To bring back to harmony.

To cause to be no longer at variance.

To bring to acquiesence/ content or quiet submission.

To bring to agreement.

To bring into consonance and accord.

To make compatible.

To call back into fellowship.

To restore to favour after estrangement.

To adjust and settle.

The process of making two things in agreement which are seemingly opposed.

To bring together/ conciliate/ placate/ re-unite.

To re-establish a close relationship/

It was through His Son that God cleared the way for EVERYTHING to come to Him.....and you likewise.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all mankind to condemnation; so also the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal for all mankind. For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall polus be made righteous.

 

[cj]

It was through His Son that God cleared the way for EVERYTHING to come to Him.....and you likewise.

Its funny how you say..... COME TO HIM...... yet, you try to convince folks that God is bringing all to Himself. Which is it?

And so the contradiction remains in FL's writings.

As is further confirmed below.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all mankind to condemnation; so also the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal for all mankind. For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall polus be made righteous.

Romans 5:19, "For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous."

The word "CONSTITUTED" is a very interesting one.... for this is what the Lord must become in us, so that we may partake of HIS righteousness.

Philippians 3 : 7 - 11, "But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ. But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ and be found in Him,..... not having my own righteousness which is out of the law,...... but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead."

What did Paul say...... that he could actually have his own righteousness, gained out of the law?

Holy Tolody Batman....... did Paul just say that? Is it true that man could be found righteous if he kept the law?

Yep Robin, that's what Paul said.

So then why did God come to earth in the form of a man, and give Himself as a perfect offering, once and for all Batman?

Because Robin, God wanted to bring in His new way for His creation, which meant that His adversary needed to be put away forever. What men could do, according to the old covenant, the old way, was just achieve atonement on a year by year basis, and this, only if you were a Jew. All other men were dependant on God's love and mercy only, but the Jews had been given a covenant that when kept by themselves, allowed God to Passover their sin of one year. By this covenant they could be seen as righteous before God.

So, contrary to what some might lead you to think Robin, men could be found righteous before God, apart from the Lord's manifested death on the cross.

Yet, even this truth goes deeper, as this law by which Paul tells us men could be found righteous, was only a TYPE of that which was (and has) come. A shadow of the One who died on the cross. In fact, every year that the Passover lamb was slain and offered up to God, this was a picture of what God had determined from the foundation of the world regarding how He would deal with His enemy and RECONCILE all things in His creation to Himself, which is to say, RECONCILE His creation back to what His original plan for it had been before Lucifer fell and corruption of God's creation was brought in. It is important to understand clearly that God's creation was fallen long before man was created. And this is why one can say that the death of the Lord on the cross was not connected to man, but to God dealing with His enemy in creation. What saves all creation is not the humanity form that God took on, but that empowered by divinity, this humanity/creation of God could overcome the corruption of the enemy. And by doing two things, being the man who perfectly followed the law and gave Himself as a final sacrifice for the crime of Adam and all men (choosing the way of sin over God), and raising Himself from His death, this One brought in a new and better way for creation to come forward into God's original plan.... and this way, as Paul tells us above.... is "to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead."




It is nothing but a lie of the enemy of God to say that because of the sacrifice of one, all men have eternal life.

Paul speaking for God says.... "I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead."

There is no life if the out-resurrection is not attained; and the starting point of attaining this out-resurrection is....

Ephesians 2 : 4 - 9, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together with Him and seated us together with Him in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, that He might display in the ages to come the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast."

The starting point of attaining the out-resurrection is found at the point of inward resurrection, the regenerated spirit.

And how does our deadened spirit become regenerated? By faith, by a man believing what God has done in the Son. By hearing the word of God. And not just hearing in the sense of in one ear and out the other; but hearing and receiving what is heard. In this way a man receives faith and his spirit is regenerated. This is what it means to be saved.

In the old testament type of offering up a sacrifice of the lamb, each year the Jews needed to do this believing that God would keep His end of the covenant. They needed to express this belief by first procuring the perfect lamb, then going to Jerusalem at the specified time, then taking the lamb to be inspected and if found in proper order, to then be sacrificed. This display of faith needed to be expressed every year.... but in the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, men need only express this faith just once, for all time. As after this, according to the new covenant, God enters man (divinity in man) and thus can empower him to live the kind of life that Paul is speaking of that will cause one to attain the out-resurrection from the dead.

Paul says..... "but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead."



Saints, don't receive the lie of God's enemy..... only receive that which brings life, and this being...... "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"


In love,
cj