Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell

[Restin]

Who are the wicked?

Okay. Can we get back on topic here. Let's not make this a universalist vs the world thread.

Restin, take another look:

It has been revealed that God will have all, the wicked included.

Shana, from scripture, tell me who are the wicked.

If God saves the wicked, does he not have to save the father of the wicked also?

What does the scripture mean when it says--

• Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. NASU

Note the phrase -- a son of hell -- Who/what are/is a son of hell?

Is hell just an imaginary place to tease people?

.......Restin

 

[Shana]

I believe that hell as translated in this verse is Gehenna. It was a real place, the location given in the OT, and was also used figuratively in the scriptures to characterize one who is corrupt, an enemy of God. A son of hell is one who is corrupt, and enemy of God. We were all once sons of hell as was the proselyte described in Matthew 23. Believers today once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2) We have been described as walking in the lusts of the flesh and mind, being children of wrath by nature." (Eph. 1)

Do you not believe that you were once wicked, and enemy of God, a son of hell. Were you once under the domain of darkness, blinded by the god of this age, held captive to do his will?

I do believe that God is able to reconcile all to Himself, no matter how corrupt, even the deceiver. It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, both on earth and in the heavens. (Col. 1) One day in the name of Jesus, every knee will bow in worship, and every tongue will confess, profess, give thanks, praise to Him, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. (Phill. 2) This is universal in scope. All are to be reunited, headed up, summed up in Christ (Eph. 1) God bless you.

 

[Restin]

The HEIR and the SLAVE

Shana, appreciate your addressing the questions

Do you not believe that you were once wicked, sinful? -- YES
and enemy of God, in the flesh -- YES
a son of hell NO -- Paul says in Galatians 1:15 he was 'set apart from his mothers' womb

Were you once under the domain of darkness, blinded by the god of this age, held captive to do his will? YES. in the sense that there is no difference between the HEIR and the SLAVE, Galatians 4

I do believe that God is able to reconcile all to Himself, no matter how corrupt, even the deceiver.

The question isn't whether God is able -- the question is what is God's plan, ordained from the foundation of the world.

It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, both on earth and in the heavens. (Col. 1)

Reconcile -- Yes. Bring to salvation -- NO. Example is Jacob and Esau. These brothers were reconciled to each other in this life, but Jacob had the one thing essential -- the birthwright. Beyond that, this was all planned before they were born. Ro 9:10-13 Combine with Psalm 45:7 You have loved righteousness [loved Jacob] and hated wickedness [hated Esau];

One day in the name of Jesus, every knee will bow in worship, and every tongue will confess, profess, give thanks, praise to Him, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. (Phill. 2) This is universal in scope.

Universal in scope -- YES; change the hearts of the wicked -- NO

• Psalm 22:29 All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
  
  Proverbs 14:19 The evil will bow down before the good, And the wicked at the gates of the righteous.
  
  Psalm 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked, For they do not seek Your statutes.
  NASU

All are to be reunited, headed up, summed up in Christ (Eph. 1) God bless you.
Coments in blue/R

In your analogy, you make mankind all 'one happy, saved' family in the 'summing up of all things'. The wicked do not go to hell, they are not eternally separated from God. According to your reasoning God changes the wicked to be adopted into the family of God. Malachi 3:15 'So now we call the arrogant blessed; not only are the doers of wickedness built up but they also test God and escape.'"NASU

The major difference here, between your thoughts and mine, is that your reasoning ignores the principle in Galatians 4 --about the 'heir' and the 'slave', then repeated again in Abraham's two sons. One son according to PROMISE, and one son according to the flesh.

• Galatians 4.
  vs1-4 as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is ownes everything
  vs 22-23 Abraham had two sons, the son of the bondwoman was according to the flesh, the son of the free woman was by/through promise.

Shana, for me to believe your logic, I have to lay aside the fact that Abraham, had two sons, that God told Abraham 'take now your your only son, Isaac, whom you love'. God did not include the eldest son, Ishmael in the PROMISE. Ishmael is the son of the flesh not PROMISE. This tells me that when God says 'all things' God is talking about 'all things, according to the ONLY son, the son of PROMISE and the spiritual children of the ONLY son. The son left out, does not partake of the birthright, though in this life the elder son does partake of the blessing of God. This principal is the foundation, the seed of truth that permeates everything else, and in being fulfilled is what 'summs up all things' -- Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father.

The 'summing up of all things' Revelation 22:11 those who are filthy will remain filthy -- those who are righteous will remain righteous [after this announcement there are NO conversions -- the wicked will not change] God has spoken, He will carry it out! What was planned in the beginning, will be consumated according to the plan. Call it FAMILY PLANNING!

Peace & Blessings.........Restin

 

[guibox]

:x

WHY, OH WHY DOES EVERY SINGLE THREAD ON THESE TOPICS TURN INTO A UNIVERSALIST THREAD?? Universalism is responsible for more hijackings and hold-ups on this forum then Bonnie and Clyde!!! (And that's not necessarily the fault of the URists on this forum)

The topic here is the problems with the traditionalist view of 'hell'. Can someone at least comment/agree/refute/ANYTHING the concerns and views I put forth at the beginning of this thread?

Has anyone whose posted lately evern LOOKED at what I originally wrote??

 

[smaller]

Greetings guibox

The topic here is the problems with the traditionalist view of 'hell'. Can someone at least comment/agree/refute/ANYTHING the concerns and views I put forth at the beginning of this thread?

Has anyone whose posted lately evern LOOKED at what I originally wrote??

Without even going into plain texts that show that the traditionalist view of hell doesn't hold any water, there are othe arguments to go against such a view. Here are a few.

a. Moral Implications

God is turned into a cruel, sadistic torturer, whether He does the torture or just allows it. This is irreconciable with a God who loves the world so much that He sent His son to die for sinners. God cannot be praised for His goodness when He torments sinners throughout the ages of eternity. Our conscience that God has placed within us revolts at such a concept of eternal torture. John Hick says, “The idea of bodies burning for ever and continuously suffering the intense pain of third-degree burns without either being consumed or losing consciousness is as scientifically fantastic as it is morally revolting...The thought of such a torment being deliberately inflicted by divine decree is totally incompatible with the idea of God as infinite love.â€Â

Eternal torture is taught without a single doubt. Many URists have speculated that said "torture" is merely temporal. Said torture is permanent and will happen. Just not to "people." Nowhere in the entire Bible is a single named person said to be going to suffer in The Lake of Fire or even threatened with such a fate.

It is right that the anti-Christ spirits get set aside and put away. They are not alive in the first place, but are "anti-"life. They will be put into their own box. Their own ways will perpetually come upon them.

God says, “My ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts†(Isaiah 55:9,10). If our conscience revolts at the idea of torturing a human alive for any prolonged period of time, how can we attribute an even worse thing to the God who created us and put that conscience in us? Especially when He is far superior in that area than we are? And yet we make Him out to be ten times worse then the worst sinner on this earth.

It is true that most "christians" are "nicer" than their own god. What's wrong with this picture eh? Their "view" of this type of God should be in question.

b. Judicial Implications

God deals in the realm of retributive justice. The punishment fits the crime. God implemented this system for his people on this earth, why would he operate His own system with a far inferior one? It is difficult to imagine what rebellious lifestyle warrants ultimate punishment of everlasting, conscious torment in hell.

This is where it gets difficult. Can you or any really imagine what an "anti"Christ spirit is or does? No. Yet God created "all things" including the wicked for the day of destruction.

God has cleverly hidden us in the same lump as these wicked ones. Apart from His Word we cannot discern "ourselves" from what is "in us."

It is hard to believe that divine justice can be satisfied by inflicting a punishment of eternal torment. There is no positive, reformative or redemptive purpose in this punishment.

Oh, but you see "all things" can be allowed to pass by and through the Mind of God. He is "Greater" than the sum of all things. It is hard for us to imagine how evil, sin, and death are "His servants" but they are. Fortunately "they" are "temporal servants."

The Bible says that ultimately, the wages of sin is death. If one sins, one dies. That is the punishment for the rebellion of sin. Some people say, “God is an infinite being, therefore a sin committed against him deserves an infinite punishment.†Yes, punishment: death. Punishing? Forever? That is not fair in the least. When we sentence someone to death, that is their punishment. The electric chair is a means to an end. There is not a continual jolt of electricity. The punishment of the electric chair presupposes death. In eternal torment, God’s justice and mercy are not evident and God is the embodiment of all those things...including love. How does a loving God allowing trillions of years of third degree burns for a mere 70+ years of rebellion on this earth constitute justice in any fashion, never mind God's justice, who's "ways are above our ways and thoughts above our thoughts"?

I personally don't think that denial of the eternal destruction scriptures is profitable. It is without a doubt a "doctrine." A very difficult one to understand but it is written nevertheless.

c. Cosmological Implications

In an eternally burning hell, we have a cosmic dualism. Happiness and pain, goodness and evil would continue to exist forever alongside each other. This is impossible to reconcile with Revelation 21:4 which states that “there will be no more sorrow, or crying for the former things have passed awayâ€Â.

The fact and knowledge of loved ones suffering in hell, and the presence of millions suffering excruciating pain would only serve to destroy the peace and happiness of the new world. The new creation would be flawed from day one. Regardless of their state, sin and sinners still would exist in a “perfect†world. Sin cannot exist in the presence of God. We see that when Christ comes the second time, the wicked are destroyed by the light of his power and glory. It is an automatic thing because sin cannot exist in the presence of God. Yet in Revelation 14:10 says

And he (wicked man) shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb

Obviously then, they would have to cease to exist at some point by this fire. If we are to take this literally, then we must conclude that sinners will continually be living in the presence of God which is a biblical contradiction, never mind a major inconvenience to the righteous! “Where is the Lord?†“He’s in Hell right now watching the sinners burn.â€Â

These "wicked" spirits (note: "not mankind") can be penned up in the mind of God Forever. He brought "them" about and He can set them aside forever.

The purpose of the plan of salvation is ultimately to eradicate the presence of sin and sinners from the world. Christ’s victory of his redemptive mission can only be fulfilled in this task. The pain and "torment" is a natural effect of the fire that is supposed to destroy sin and a sinful world. This is called God's "strange act" because it goes against all He is. However, for a new heaven and a new "start" and to put sinners out of their misery, it is a necessary one.

It is again difficult for us to understand and perceive how God can create and use evil, sin, and death and bring about His Good Purposes, but He can and Will and Does, and this for "all mankind."

d. Illogistics and Character Flaw Implications

For hell in its understood form to exist, we must conclude that God created this hell from the beginning of the earth before man existed, after Satan fell from grace. (the bible says that hell is initially for the Satan and the angels). This raises an interesting thought.

Is God truly a loving God to create a hell even BEFORE man sinned? This God not only anticipated that man would probably sin, but also that he would have a real juicy punishment awaiting him too. The obvious question to ask is, why would God create such a place to begin with? This shows that He obviously delights in torment because only He was responsible for needlessly creating it. I say this because there is NO OTHER PURPOSE for hell then punishment. No reformation, no redemption, just endless pain. If such a place existed, and God created it, then Christ came to save us from His own creation, for there would not need to be any torment had God not created hell. Hence, the only conclusion we can come to for this "hell" to exist, is that God wants to punish sinners.

Indeed He does and indeed He Will. Paul called sin indwelling him "no longer I." Paul understood that God has a purpose to show using "disobedience" as a guide. (Romans 11:32)

God would not allow those He died to save, even when they hated Him, to be tortured for endless ages just because they chose the opposite path. The Bible doesn't support it, philosophy doesn't support it, common sense rejects it, and the conscience abhors such a thought. Isn't that enough proof?

Many URists have made attempts to mitigate or minimize or shorten God's Strength in the total destruction of sin, evil, and death. These things will surely be set aside "forever" so eternal torture cannot be set aside, just acknowledged and understood properly as not "against mankind."

The Lake of Fire will be no more than tossing a worn out temporal piece of equipment into the fire.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Charlotte]

Do we all agree that the whole human race and their righteousness is as filthy rags? We all have sinned? No one seeks God? Christ died for His enemies, the wicked, sinners, ungodly?

Is it fair for God to punish some of us sinners in an ever burning hell, or puff and your gone forever, and not all? What makes some of us so righteous that we don't have to suffer either of these two evils?

It is only by the grace of God, or God working in us that causes any of us to do any good at all.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that we all will be given the same fate? We will all have to suffer the same consequences. Those who have repented in this age have and will suffer their own hell here on earth. I think the same fate will happen to those that haven't repented in the age to come. They will suffer the same as we do now, no more no less. Why should they? They are no worse than we are. In the eyes of God one sin is no bigger than the other one. We have all sinned.

I don't believe the lake of fire is what most people think it is. I believe it will be used in a different way than most people think. Hell is just a grave.

The wages of sin is DEATH. There is no mention of the wages of sin being anything else but DEATH. Jesus conquered that enemy when He was resurrected. We will all follow in the footsteps of Christ.

Charlotte

 

[phatdawg]

Charlotte,
You and I must have been cut from the same piece of the Father's heart. I thought I was the only one who saw what you just said. That is a pretty controversial viewpoint in some circles.
I was impressed with your words. It was like I was reading something I had written myself.
Ain't God good?!

 

[guibox]

Thank you, smaller, for at least addressing the topic at hand! I don't feel that your arguments diminished or really counteracted mine, however. It was a nice effort and very much appreciated! I do have to comment on a few things.

Eternal torture is taught without a single doubt. Many URists have speculated that said "torture" is merely temporal. Said torture is permanent and will happen. Just not to "people." Nowhere in the entire Bible is a single named person said to be going to suffer in The Lake of Fire or even threatened with such a fate.

If you look at the metaphorical and OT language used in the passages that seem to promote eternal torture, they are lacking in linguistic and biblical support. The Bible does indeed state that the wicked will suffer the same fate as Satan.

And they (wicked) went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them - Revelation 20:9

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:15

Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away to everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:41, 46a

The punishment that is mentioned here and in conjunction with Revelation 14 and 20 shows that this fire that comes down forms the lake of fire where all are cast in and destroyed.[/b]

 

[Charlotte]

Hi phatdawg,

Thank you, I am glad I am not the only one who sees things like this.
You know, I don't know why I get so frustrated that most do not see and understand what I said about hell, death, and the lake of fire. Thing is, I know why they don't understand. It is because God hasn't opened their minds. Of course these same people will more than likely say "she thinks God has given her some kind of special understanding." I do not think this.

I was at the same place these people are at one time, so I should be able to sympathize with them but it is really hard sometimes. Why is that? HUMAN I guess.

Charlotte

 

[guibox]

Hi phatdawg,

Thank you, I am glad I am not the only one who sees things like this.
You know, I don't know why I get so frustrated that most do not see and understand what I said about hell, death, and the lake of fire. Thing is, I know why they don't understand. It is because God hasn't opened their minds. Of course these same people will more than likely say "she thinks God has given her some kind of special understanding." I do not think this.

I was at the same place these people are at one time, so I should be able to sympathize with them but it is really hard sometimes. Why is that? HUMAN I guess.

Charlotte

Please keep in mind Charlotte that (IMO) the bible is not on your side (or at least at first glance does not appear to be). It is hard enough for an annihilationist to convince some of these people even though the evidence, scripturally and linguistically is stacked in our favor. How can you expect traditionalists to go even FURTHER and believe that words like 'destroying', 'torment', 'death', 'contempt', 'consume', 'destruction', and 'condemnation' means 'everybody gets saved in the end'. I can't believe it as an annihilationist, never mind a traditionalist. You are not going to convince traditionalists of this. The scriptures are just not on your side (your few misapplied 'ALL' texts not withstanding).

IMO, URists have the same mindset when it comes to interpreting scripture. A few texts here and there and a theology is built out of it. If you honestly study the scriptures, you will see that annihilationism for the enemies of God is a constant, repetitive theme that encompasses the whole of scripture. Ties to the OT use of destruction are continually used in the NT. The language goes in this direction.

Even if you see universalism in some texts, I don't believe anybody in the scriptures believed in universalism. If they did, they hid it in cryptic language and cloaked whatever evidence there might be for it within a shroud of language of destruction for God's enemies. It is not obvious, it is not a recurring theme and therefore, not a plausible message for the Word of God to His people. God does not give a message that is missed by 90% of the world and expect us to follow the Bible as His 'Word'. I just don't think He works that way.

 

[Pneuma]

strait gate

God does not give a message that is missed by 90% of the world and expect us to follow the Bible as His 'Word'. I just don't think He works that way.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Charlotte]

Hi guibox,

I use to believe just like you do, so I understand where you are coming from. The only thing is, what you believe concerning annihilation cannot be right according to the Bible.

#1. If there is one person who remains dead, then death will not be destroyed. Death will remain for all eternity, if anyone remains dead.

#2. Annihilation is not a payment for sins. Death is the only payment required for sins. Jesus paid that debt, did He not? What was Jesus death for if not the payment for our sins? How much payment is required???
Was His death not enough payment??

#3. If the penalty for our sins was to be annihilated, then Christ would have to be annihilated, in order to pay that debt for us, if not we would all be annihilated. There is no other way around this. In order for Christ to pay for anyone sins He would have to endure whatever that penalty for sin was.

Charlotte

 

[Restin]

Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell...continues

:x

WHY, OH WHY DOES EVERY SINGLE THREAD ON THESE TOPICS TURN INTO A UNIVERSALIST THREAD?? Universalism is responsible for more hijackings and hold-ups on this forum then Bonnie and Clyde!!! (And that's not necessarily the fault of the URists on this forum)

The topic here is the problems with the traditionalist view of 'hell'. Can someone at least comment/agree/refute/ANYTHING the concerns and views I put forth at the beginning of this thread?

Has anyone whose posted lately evern LOOKED at what I originally wrote??

The title of this thread does not say anything about traditionalist view of 'hell'. The title says "Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell". -- I (and others, including URist and non-URist ) are addressing the Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell, as stated in the title of the thread.

Without even going into plain texts that show that the traditionalist view of hell doesn't hold any water, there are other arguments to go against such a view. Here are a few.

a. Moral Implications
b. Judicial Implications
c. Cosmological Implications
d. Illogistics and Character Flaw Implications

guibox I did not see this original post to mean that you meant to limit this discussion to "the traditionalist view" but that the 'traditionalist view of hell, is one among many of the Theological Problems With Hell. What did you mean when you state "there are other arguments to go against such a view"? (OK -- views other than the traditionalist view.) Scripture leads all to one main river of truth. The little streams also give their contribution -- Soooooo, I am just a little stream, even less, say just a cup in which to hold the water of LIFE for someone who is thirsty!

Peace.....Restin

 

[smaller]

Greetings guibox

Thank you, smaller, for at least addressing the topic at hand! I don't feel that your arguments diminished or really counteracted mine, however. It was a nice effort and very much appreciated! I do have to comment on a few things.

smaller wrote:
Eternal torture is taught without a single doubt. Many URists have speculated that said "torture" is merely temporal. Said torture is permanent and will happen. Just not to "people." Nowhere in the entire Bible is a single named person said to be going to suffer in The Lake of Fire or even threatened with such a fate.

If you look at the metaphorical and OT language used in the passages that seem to promote eternal torture, they are lacking in linguistic and biblical support.

Rest assured that sin, evil, death, and the messengers of satan are not "metaphorical" and the eradication or punishment of them is a scriptural reality. It is a folly to say otherwise from a Word perspective.

Those who run down the track of minimizing or attempting to limit or temporalize eternal damnation loose their scriptural credibility IMO. Many URists have and are currently attempting this "method" but with very little support other than with their own groups, but the counter arguments to the position are simplistically deadly to their follies.

The Bible does indeed state that the wicked will suffer the same fate as Satan.

My prior observation, and one that has been made multiple times within the UR camps is that there is not one single named person said to be going to suffer the fate of eternal torment or even threatened with such a fate. Then there is the additional problem that all people are presented in the scriptures as God's Children. A double whammy that the eternal torturists cannot overcome, try as "they" may.

Quote:
And they (wicked) went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them - Revelation 20:9

Quote:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:15

Quote:
Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away to everlasting punishment - Matthew 25:41, 46a

The punishment that is mentioned here and in conjunction with Revelation 14 and 20 shows that this fire that comes down forms the lake of fire where all are cast in and destroyed.[/b]

You think you see "all" here but these texts cannot be understood properly without separating "mankind" from the devil and his messengers. The difficulty in this understanding is multifold. First of all to accept the position one must conceed that it is personally applicable. Secondly this position is not deniable for any person. We cannot "get rid" of sin in the flesh "completely." Only One Man was afforded that position and evil and wicked sinners killed Him anyway.

In the end the "fires" are prepared for the devil and his messengers and for the "powers" that they have been allowed to employ on the earth.

John is a uniqe writer in understanding of the contrast of these two positions: Here is a sample

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

This is a most difficult passage. A. We know we are God's Children B. We are in the world, therefore we "lieth in wickedness."

There can be no denial of either position. When "both" are conceeded we find a constant stream of proper understandings. One stream of the Word is "Life" to mankind and creation. The other stream is death and punishment to the temporal powers that God has allowed to temporarily vaunt themselves. These are however two separate positions bound together in a manner that is not seen in any other way but by The Truth of The Word.

If God has slated you to see this you will see and you will rejoice.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[guibox]

Re: Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell...conti

The title of this thread does not say anything about traditionalist view of 'hell'. The title says "Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell". -- I (and others, including URist and non-URist ) are addressing the Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell, as stated in the title of the thread.

Restin, as you read my arguments, you will see that they are addressing the traditionalist view of hell as most Christians and people will think of when they hear the word 'hell'. It is in this belief where most of the problems lie and most of what people believe.

Concerning UR/US posts, they don't limit themselves to 'hell'. Pretty soon when others get on the UR attack mode, it begins to address Universalism in general. That is why I get cranky.

guibox I did not see this original post to mean that you meant to limit this discussion to "the traditionalist view" but that the 'traditionalist view of hell, is one among many of the Theological Problems With Hell. What did you mean when you state "there are other arguments to go against such a view"?
(OK -- views other than the traditionalist view.)[/bPeace.....Restin

I meant other arguments other than scriptural arguments. Regardless of whether you are a universalist, atheist or annihilationist, the problems I brought forth are usually the issues folks have with hell.

 

[Mhz]

I guess I got to get my two cents in.

I agree with all of you in some ways and Smaller, Charlotte, and Guibox in many ways. I believe we all have a piece of the mystery.

It would be careless to discard Jesus' own teaching on the subject of separation (the goats, the narrow gate, etc), and whether punishment is eternal. When God says to Jesus, "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet," he's talking about conquering these enemies. But who is the enemy? Conquering involves destruction, punishment, and casting out from His presence. You can assert that eternal doesn't mean eternal, but then we weaken the hope of eternal heaven too. You can say that eternal separation doesn't fit with God's character, but Jesus seems to agree that in some way it does. I think it is clear that the enemy is within each of us. It is unrighteousness.

The reason scripture is compared to a mystery is because we weren’t intended to know all things. However, there is one things that is universal and common to the knowledge and understanding of all men...perfect love. We all know love when we see and experience it. We might not be able to explain it but it is totally irresistible to us all.

If God’s intentions do not begin and end in the love then we are all in trouble. The highest attribute we can attest to God is not Justice but rather AGAPE. Justice is simple one of many traits of God that is TOTALLY satisfied by the greatest of God’s attributes LOVE (the cross). If love isn’t at the core of God then he is no better than man, flawed, and less then perfect. A belief that God’s love did, or will, fail is the spirit of anti-Christ and a blight on religion and the world today.

Shouldn't we take all of Christ’s teaching into account and harmonize them just as we must take the whole of scripture, as Guibox said, and harmonize them. Christ did describe the separating of the sheep and the goats but he also said that God was kind to the EVIL and the UNTHANKFULL. Honest exegesis says that both must somehow be true.

We are in a battle between two forces, good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, truth and lie, the Adam man and the Christ man within. These forces are both from the hand of God and meant to accomplish one goal in us... our perfection. When Jesus said that we should be perfect as God is perfect it was more than a command it was a promise.

Contrary to what most Christians and the world believes, Satan was not a surprise to God. God created him... for a purpose. Just as God created good and evil for a purpose... to refine us. His motivation is love not justice. He may be a Judge but justice has been served through the only way possible... Jesus Christ. He’s the Father of creation not some magistrate short on patience. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Revelation says that nothing defiled can enter the Kingdom of God and so it shall be. God’s enemy is death and unrighteousness not the objects of his love or the souls of men. Unrighteousness must be destroyed and forever separated.

We would all agree that there is no righteousness in us except that which is imputed by the blood of Christ. As has been said, all our best deeds and intentions are as filthy rags. There are none good ... not one. If we are all so wretched, and we can only come if drawn, why would God create a soul that he never intended to draw only to torment him endlessly? I agree that this would make God very dualistic in nature and purpose. On the other hand, separating the chaff from the wheat perfects us all.

We keep looking for this enemy that God is going to destroy and make into a footstool but like Smaller and Charlotte have said, the enemy is ‘Death’. Death and unrighteousness must go if nothing defiled will enter the Kingdom! He can do what he wants with Satan since he was not created in his image, but nothing created in his image will be wasted.

Read the parable of the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, the vine and the branches, the two men in a bed, etc. Evil is destroyed forever and that which remains is righteousness and preserved forever more. All changed in a twinkling of an eye. This is the ribbon throughout scripture and the glory of God.

Sober and righteous living is certainly not in vain. There is a reason to pursue God in this life and to deny the lust of the flesh. Those who have built on the foundation of Christ ‘finished work’ with precious stones will have something deserving reward and those who wasted their life on hay wood and stubble will have it all burned. But according to the apostle all will be separated from them except their salvation. (1 Cor 3:15)

 

[phatdawg]

I guess I got to get my two cents in.

That wasn't two cents, that was a quarter. And worth every penny.
8-)
We know that in the end, the goodness of God will overcome the evils of men. And we can all be thankful for that.

 

[Soma-Sight]