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Philosophical Optimism

I think you should read this article Quath. All i can say to you is we cannot not judge God, we are his creation. This is called submission. This is how all the problems of this world are here today. Becuase we want to live the world they way we want to live it. Anyway i have a very very very interesting article that you have to read.

The Miracle of the Eye


Charles Darwin described the eye as one of the greatest challenges to his theory. How could he explain it? The eye, after all, is simply incompatible with evolution. "To suppose," he admitted, "that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances . . . could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree" (Origin of Species, p. 146).

Jesus said that "the lamp of the body is the eye" (Matthew 6:22). Jacob Bronowski wrote that, "if you compare a human being with even the most sharp-eyed of the great apes, say with a chimpanzee, our vision is incredibly more delicate . . . Their ability to discriminate fine detail (which can be tested in a very simple way) is not comparable with that of human beings" (The Origins of Knowledge and Imagination, 1978, pp. 12-13).

The human eye possesses 130 million light-sensitive rods and cones that convert light into chemical impulses. These signals travel at a rate of a billion per second to the brain.

The essential problem for Darwinists is how so many intricate components could have independently evolved to work together perfectly when, if a single component didn't function perfectly, nothing would work at all.

Think about it. Partial transitional structures are no aid to a creature's survival and may even be a hindrance. If they are a hindrance, no further gradual development would occur because the creature would, according to advocates of natural selection, be less apt to survive than the other creatures around him. What good is half a wing or an eye without a retina? Consequently, either such structures as feathered wings must have appeared all at once, either by absurdly implausible massive mutations ("hopeful monsters," as scientists refer to such hypothetical creatures) or by creation.

"Now it is quite evident," says Francis Hitching, "that if the slightest thing goes wrong en route-if the cornea is fuzzy, or the pupil fails to dilate, or the lens becomes opaque, or the focusing goes wrong-then a recognizable image is not formed. The eye either functions as a whole, or not at all.

"So how did it come to evolve by slow, steady, infinitesimally small Darwinian improvements? Is it really possible that thousands upon thousands of lucky chance mutations happened coincidentally so that the lens and the retina, which cannot work without each other, evolved in synchrony? What survival value can there be in an eye that doesn't see?

"Small wonder that it troubled Darwin. 'To this day the eye makes me shudder,' [Darwin] wrote to his botanist friend Asa Gray in February, 1860" (The Neck of the Giraffe, 1982, p. 86).

Incredible as the eye is, consider that we have not one but two of them. This matched pair, coupled with an interpretive center in the brain, allows us to determine distances to the objects we see. Our eyes also have the ability to focus automatically by elongating or compressing themselves. They are also inset beneath a bony brow that, along with automatic shutters in the form of eyelids, provide protection for these intricate and delicate organs.

Darwin should have considered two passages in the Bible. "The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both," wrote King Solomon (Proverbs 20:12). Psalm 94:9 asks: "He who planted the ear, shall He not hear? He who formed the eye, shall He not see?"

The same can be said of the brain, nose, palate and dozens of other complex and highly developed organs in any human or animal. It would take a quantum leap of faith to think all this just evolved. Yet that is commonly taught and accepted.

After reviewing the improbability of such organs arising in nature from an evolutionary process, Professor H.S. Lipson, a member of the British Institute of Physics, wrote in 1980: ". . . We must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it" (Physics Bulletin, Vol. 30, p. 140)

http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/EV/themiracle.htm
 
truth_will_prevail said:
I think you should read this article Quath. All i can say to you is we cannot not judge God, we are his creation. This is called submission. This is how all the problems of this world are here today. Becuase we want to live the world they way we want to live it. Anyway i have a very very very interesting article that you have to read.
You are just promoting the concept of "might makes right." I think that respect and love should be earned, not forced.

Charles Darwin described the eye as one of the greatest challenges to his theory. How could he explain it? The eye, after all, is simply incompatible with evolution. "To suppose," he admitted, "that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances . . . could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree" (Origin of Species, p. 146).
I don't want to go in through this step by step because that would belong in the religion and science section. But I will make a comment on just this first part to show how bad thiss resource is.

After Darwin says this, he goes for three more pages showing how a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable. So your resource either didn't know this (which shows ignorance) or your resource lied. Either way I would be more skeptical of using that as a resource.
 
You are just promoting the concept of "might makes right." I think that respect and love should be earned, not forced.

No one is forcing you. If you cant see the blessings then that is you problem. God created us and God knows what is best for us more than ourselves.

Surah 2 verses 9 and 10.

9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

I don't want to go in through this step by step because that would belong in the religion and science section. But I will make a comment on just this first part to show how bad thiss resource is.

After Darwin says this, he goes for three more pages showing how a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable. So your resource either didn't know this (which shows ignorance) or your resource lied. Either way I would be more skeptical of using that as a resource.

I don't have access to the book, but i will take your word for it. But you got to think for yourself.

'The human eye possesses 130 million light-sensitive rods and cones that convert light into chemical impulses. These signals travel at a rate of a billion per second to the brain.'

Can this really happen by chance?

So how did it come to evolve by slow, steady, infinitesimally small Darwinian improvements? Is it really possible that thousands upon thousands of lucky chance mutations happened coincidentally so that the lens and the retina, which cannot work without each other, evolved in synchrony? What survival value can there be in an eye that doesn't see?

By chance?
 
truth_will_prevail said:
No one is forcing you. If you cant see the blessings then that is you problem. God created us and God knows what is best for us more than ourselves.
I guess that is the assumption on which you want to base you life. I guess I just will go with the simplier assumption that God does not exist.

Surah 2 verses 9 and 10.
Every religion has to deal with skepticism and they all deal with it by saying "There are those unenlightened ones who do not agree with this this religion. They are wrong/cursed/evil/unenlightened/etc." So this is nothing unexpected.

Can this really happen by chance?

So how did it come to evolve by slow, steady, infinitesimally small Darwinian improvements? Is it really possible that thousands upon thousands of lucky chance mutations happened coincidentally so that the lens and the retina, which cannot work without each other, evolved in synchrony? What survival value can there be in an eye that doesn't see?

By chance?
If you think evolution means "by chance" then you really don't understand it. Evolution has three parts:
1. A blueprint
2. Mutations on the blueprint for new copies.
3. A selection algorithm.

Most creationists just think about (2) without seeing (3). So for example, say you type random letters on a page and make 10 books. I select the book that is most like "A Tale of Two Cities." You then take the winner and create ten more books with some minor corrections in each copy. I select the winner from that new set. If we keep repeating this, then one day you will have written "A Tale of Two Cities." The important step here was the selection algorithm. In nature, that algorithm is natural selection or survival of the fittest.

If you are really interested in the evolution of the eye, I woudl suggest you check out this Wikipedia entry. It is nicely detailed if you really want to know. In particular, I would like to point out some of the closing remarks from this entry:

Although the eye remains a common and popular example of complexity in arguments against evolution, some intelligent design and creationism advocates have abandoned the eye as an example of "irreducible complexity". As the detail and history of eye evolution have become better understood, its role in these circles has declined and been replaced by molecular and microscopic structures such as the flagellum. However, much as with the eye, research into these smaller-scale structures has also uncovered details of their evolution.

The eye argument might be said to stem from a "God of the gaps" strategy, or more broadly, the "argument from incredulity" fallacy.
 
Ok we need to get to the bottom of this problem.

What is it that puts you off in believing in God?

Are you open in believing in God or have you made your mind up.?
 
truth_will_prevail said:
What is it that puts you off in believing in God?
Pretty much lack of evidence.

Are you open in believing in God or have you made your mind up.?
Yes. If God is real, I would like to know that.
 
Quath said:
Pretty much lack of evidence.

I used to think so too. Now I can literally look anywhere and see evidence. If you really would like to know if God is real He will come to you in His time. And truth_will_prevail, I hope that God will live within you too. You believe that God exists (which is good)...but your body is meant to be His temple. I'm afraid you won't be able to earn your way to heaven. If you've sinned only once you are doomed to Hell. We all are. A perfect and just God simply won't tolerate anything less than perfect. Let the Lord Almighty do all the work in you. God loved you so much He humbled Himself and became like one of us. He made Himself a sacrifice for all your sin and died for you. But He lives! And so can you!
 
And truth_will_prevail, I hope that God will live within you too. You believe that God exists (which is good)...but your body is meant to be His temple. I'm afraid you won't be able to earn your way to heaven. If you've sinned only once you are doomed to Hell. We all are. A perfect and just God simply won't tolerate anything less than perfect. Let the Lord Almighty do all the work in you. God loved you so much He humbled Himself and became like one of us. He made Himself a sacrifice for all your sin and died for you. But He lives! And so can you!

Ok i understand you are trying to help me but i believe Islam is the true religion. I have one question for you Veritas. If God really died for our sins, then what about the animals. Who is going to die for them? What sin have they committed?
 
truth_will_prevail said:
Ok i understand you are trying to help me but i believe Islam is the true religion. I have one question for you Veritas. If God really died for our sins, then what about the animals. Who is going to die for them? What sin have they committed?

Hope you don't mind Veritas.

God gave man dominion over the world. All of it. Including the animals. What sin have they commited? None. We are responsible for their suffering also by our sin. The slave cannot be greater than the master. Likewise that which is dominated cannot be greater than that which dominates.
And of course we are to be the stewards of the earth.

Now a question for you.
If God really died for our sins, then what about you?
 
Now a question for you.
If God really died for our sins, then what about you?

I don't believe God died for our sins. In Islam God is eternal. I don't believe God came to earth in a human shape. There is no room for anthropomorphism in Islam. This brings problems like human deficiencies.
 
truth_will_prevail said:
I don't believe God died for our sins. In Islam God is eternal. I don't believe God came to earth in a human shape. There is no room for anthropomorphism in Islam. This brings problems like human deficiencies.

Then what would you have of us?
 
Don't mind you replying at all Potluck :)

truth_will_prevail,
Potluck answered your question well.

I'm curious about your motives also. Are you here to learn about us? Learn about Christ? Because I love to share. It's good news. Especially if you realize that you mess up in life alot and can't possibly earn your way to heaven and God. (I know I can't)

You know God wants you to be His child right?
 
What is it you want from us?
Why are you here?

Don't worry i am not a Muslim 'missionary.' lol. I'm just here to clear up a lot of misunderstandings about Islam. I understand the majority of people on this forum are neutral but there are some topics about Islam that are just untrue .
 
truth_will_prevail said:
Don't worry i am not a Muslim 'missionary.' lol. I'm just here to clear up a lot of misunderstandings about Islam. I understand the majority of people on this forum are neutral but there are some topics about Islam that are just untrue .

What do you believe those misconceptions or misunderstandings to be? It would be interesting if you were to start a new thread, perhaps in the Christian and other religions forum about those misconceptions.

Forgive me for being so bold - but it would appear that there are a lot of misunderstandings with the Muslim community as well.
 
Forgive me for being so bold - but it would appear that there are a lot of misunderstandings with the Muslim community as well.

Yes i agree there are faults on both sides.
 
truth_will_prevail said:
Don't worry i am not a Muslim 'missionary.' lol. I'm just here to clear up a lot of misunderstandings about Islam. I understand the majority of people on this forum are neutral but there are some topics about Islam that are just untrue .

I really believe you speak the truth here without hiding your true intent.
I find that refreshing.

Thank you for your reply and honesty.
 
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