Plaguing questions on an ambitous mind...

[Prolific85]

Is Flavius Josephus credible? Does he really break the narrative in his account of Jesus in Antiquities?

Is the apostle Paul more credible then Muhammad? If so, what makes him more credible and why is Muhammad just a lunatic?

What happens to people of other faith when they die? Where do they go? Heaven or hell? And of other denominations?

If God exists, why did he leave us such a little evidence in favor of his existence?

 

[bartdanr]

Thanks for your post, Prolific, and welcome to Christian Forums.

Is Flavius Josephus credible? Does he really break the narrative in his account of Jesus in Antiquities?

I think most historians (regardless of their religious background) accept that Josephus was generally credible; however, most view the "Testamentum Flavium" where the supposedly Josephus said flat out "Jesus was the Messiah" to be a corrupt part of the text. There is no historical support for Josephus ever converting to Christianity.

Is the apostle Paul more credible then Muhammad? If so, what makes him more credible and why is Muhammad just a lunatic?

I wouldn't call Muhammad "just a lunatic"; I think this is a false dilema. However, I find Paul more credible than Muhammad in that Muhammad made claims about Christ (and other Biblical characters) that don't seem to add up. The early Church writings outside of the Bible generally support Paul, and the claims that Muhammad made about Jesus' teachings and work are not testified by the early fathers.

In other words, I find the evidence supporting Paul more convincing then the evidence supporting Mohammad.

What happens to people of other faith when they die? Where do they go? Heaven or hell?

My understanding is pretty much in line with C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce"--a short book if you'd like to read it. In the end, those saved are saved by Christ and those damned are damned by themselves. No one is saved by any other way but by Christ. As odd as it may seem, I believe hell is self-chosen; no one ends up there that ultimately would rather have heaven as it actually is. To the damned, heaven would be more torment then hell.

And of other denominations?

I do not believe that any one particular denomination is the entirety of the Church of Christ. There are believers in all denominations.

If God exists, why did he leave us such a little evidence in favor of his existence?

This sounds a lot like a "are you still beating your wife" question. ;) Your interpretation of the evidence is that it does not support the existence of God. However, I find the evidence quite strong for His existence.

 

[Prolific85]

Okay well I appreciate the welcome. I am really curious about Christianity.

What claims has Muhammad made that does not add up?

When I think of Muhammad, I don't think of him as credible since he was never a skeptic like Paul was. Paul seemed to be real hard to persuade on the notions of a God, and in the end he believed. I don't think an angel would tell someone about a such thing as Jihad either. That's just my opinion.

So would it be safe to say that people of other faiths ultimately go to hell? That's a little sad. That's millions, if not, billions of people.

Because Hinduism predates all of Christianity, it would be near impossible for them to ever convert.

 

[Rick W]

The other religions you mentioned... one big difference between them and Christianity:
They rely on what you do, that is, how good you are to get to heaven. Or bound somehow to certain rules and regulations. You earn your way to be with God in Heaven, man is then worthy to go to God.

But with Christianity God came to man through Christ BECAUSE man is NOT worthy to go to Him. And never can be. It's opposite to those other religions. For us it's a free gift, grace, unmerited favor, not earned or even deserved. But for them they must work for it.

We believe you can't work for something to obligate God to allow you to be with Him. He is sovreign, not us. We can't obligate God to do anything. Therein grace is grace. For if I earn something then it's no longer grace but an obligation, a payment due, something deserved.

 

[Vic C.]

They rely on what you do, that is, how good you are to get to heaven. Or bound somehow to certain rules and regulations. You earn your way to be with God in Heaven, man is then worthy to go to God.

Excellent Rick.

In the Bible, we are shown God to be the seeker of Man. All other faith based systems show man to be seeking God or a god. Especially in Christianity, we are shown that God desires to establish personal relationships with man.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because He first loved us.

 

[Imagican]

Most that follow the miriad of different 'forms' of Christianity have a 'belief' that insists that one MUST accept Christ as Their Savior or they CANNOT obtain 'Everlasting life'. The FACT is that we do not KNOW that. For there is much evidence offered in The Word that God is able to do what God 'chooses' to do and there is little that we are able to 'understand' concerning these choices.

Those judged will be judged by what's in their hearts. And there is much written, chastising the Hebrews and Jews, (God's chosen), pointing out that there were 'others' that didn't even know of the TRUE God that followed His will, (in their hearts), simply by seeking and following that which was inherently ingrained into humanity.

Many would argue this point through ingnorance, but the truth is that we have absolutely no idea who God will or will not offer 'eternal life'. I believe many will be in for a major shock when the truth of these words is revealed upon their awakening from hell on their day of judgement.

Most denominations of 'Christianity' have a tendency to insist that 'things' MUST be done 'their way' in order for 'others' to receive what God has to offer. But it is simply NOT the 'truth'. God is able to offer what HE Wills and this often has no bearing on what 'churches' may or may not 'teach'.

I usually offer words that many 'think' are 'my own'. They are not. And before anyone attempts to dispute what I have offered here, (I believe that this subject is of such monumental import), I will offer scripture that PLAINLY states what I have offered:

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, And I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, not of him that runneth, but of God that shewth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Phar-aoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

These words are but few that explain what I have offered. It is 'better' to read the entire chapter, but this part of it certainly points to the FACT that God is able to offer mercy to whomever He chooses and it's not up to 'churches' to determine this.

MEC

 

[cyberjosh]

Flavius Josephus is our most credible source for 1st century Judaism. He also fought against the Romans in the Jewish Revolt, so he knows all about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as a military General as well. The section about Jesus is believed to have had some things added but an Arabic Version of it is thought to have the original, which still gives a testament to Jesus. Josephus was also an outstanding apolegetician.

 

[cyberjosh]

Most that follow the miriad of different 'forms' of Christianity have a 'belief' that insists that one MUST accept Christ as Their Savior or they CANNOT obtain 'Everlasting life'. The FACT is that we do not KNOW that.

Imagician,

Stop spreading lies. I have a certain tolerance for your views but this crosses the line. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I can see the effects of you not recognizing Jesus as God already - that is one of the consequences.

~Josh

 

[GraceBwithU]

If God exists, why did he leave us such a little evidence in favor of his existence?

Hi and welcome.
For now I would like to comment only on this part of your post. To me this question is easily answered.

There is plenty of evidence of his existance. This was once explained to me this way.

When a person sees a painting, they know there was a painter. The painting is proof there was a painter. When a person sees a book they know there was a writer. The book is proof there was a writer. There is much more proof that God, the creator does indeed exist. Look around you and behold the marvels of creation. Creation is proof there is a creator. :D :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Imagician,

Stop spreading lies. I have a certain tolerance for your views but this crosses the line. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I can see the effects of you not recognizing Jesus as God already - that is one of the consequences.

~Josh

Thank you, Josh! You got all the accentuations in that verse in the right places. God did not leave us clueless. He revealed to us how we are saved and though Whom we are saved. It's academic, yet some still continue to seek.

 

[handy]

Many would argue this point through ingnorance, but the truth is that we have absolutely no idea who God will or will not offer 'eternal life'. I believe many will be in for a major shock when the truth of these words is revealed upon their awakening from hell on their day of judgement.

MEC, I hope you ponder the text that Josh shared, and I encourage you to ponder this one as well:

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13

 

[Prolific85]

Okay I still want to know a little bit more about how Christianity relates to other religions.

If Christianity is the only way then I want to know what happens to people who believe in Hindu, and Shintoism. It seems to me there is mysiticism around who he decides to allow into Heaven...

Think about how odd it would be that he let a Shintoist into Heaven, even though the Shintoist never lived a Christian life.

And think about how odd it would be to condemn one to hell simply because he did not believe. This means that nearly everyone is going to hell besides the 1.4 billion Christians (according to the latest wikipedia article). A little sad don't you think?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Okay I still want to know a little bit more about how Christianity relates to other religions.

If Christianity is the only way then I want to know what happens to people who believe in Hindu, and Shintoism. It seems to me there is mysiticism around who he decides to allow into Heaven...

Think about how odd it would be that he let a Shintoist into Heaven, even though the Shintoist never lived a Christian life.

And think about how odd it would be to condemn one to hell simply because he did not believe. This means that nearly everyone is going to hell besides the 1.4 billion Christians (according to the latest wikipedia article). A little sad don't you think?

Luk 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

My first suggestion is that if you want to know the truth about spiritual things, that you tell God that you want to know the truth. He will begin to open your heart and answer your questions. ASK!

Scripture tells us that we are living in a fallen world. When it fell into sin, all of us went down with it. God has given us the opportunity to get out of it. Anyone that wants to. Sad indeed, is the fact that few want to come back to God.

It is through the concern of folks like you and me, who come to know the truth and begin to pray for others, that people come to Jesus Christ. God has much to say on prayer, and it is through our asking for our loved ones to be saved, that He will guide them to the truth also. It is not Gods will for anyone to be condemned. He loves each and every one of us, and He wants us back in His Kingdom.

I am sorry to tell you that I have spent little time in studying other religions. There is an illustration about bank tellers. They do not learn to identify counterfeit dollar bills by studying counterfeits. They learn by knowing everything that they can learn about the real ones. It is in that, they are able to recognize fake ones when they show up.

You say that it is sad to think of the fate of those who do not believe. Yet God so loved them that He gave Jesus Christ to pay the wages of their sin so that they would not have to be condemned. To think of how someone could be nailed to a cross to pay for what we did wrong, and find so many people apathetic to it, that is the greatest sadness of all.

 

[bartdanr]

Thanks for your post, Prolific85.

Okay I still want to know a little bit more about how Christianity relates to other religions.

If Christianity is the only way then I want to know what happens to people who believe in Hindu, and Shintoism. It seems to me there is mysiticism around who he decides to allow into Heaven...

Think about how odd it would be that he let a Shintoist into Heaven, even though the Shintoist never lived a Christian life.

And think about how odd it would be to condemn one to hell simply because he did not believe. This means that nearly everyone is going to hell besides the 1.4 billion Christians (according to the latest wikipedia article). A little sad don't you think?

One thing to consider: no one will be barred from heaven for an unjust reason; no one will be condemned to hell for an unjust reason. All who enter heaven enter by grace; all who enter hell do so by choice.

Once I realized this--once I started trusting that God was, in fact, just--I didn't have so much problems about those who were of other religions (or no religion at all).

I don't necessarily think that all 1.4 billion Christians will go to heaven (as Jesus said "Many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord'...but I will say 'I never knew you.") Someone can be a Christian in name only, never truly being touched by God.

Likewise, probably the biggest number of people in heaven will not be Christians--or of any particular religion. Most human beings that are conceived die before birth (no, I'm not talking just about medical abortion--miscarriage is very common). I believe that these human beings will be saved by God's grace (it's obvious that they did nothing to 'earn' salvation---they were never even born!) "Living a Christian life" isn't what saves; we don't do anything to merit it. It's grace alone by faith alone.

As to your specitic question, about Hindus and Shintos: I only know that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth and the Life" and that "no one comes to the Father except through [Him]." I also know that before Christ was born, many people had a relationship with God, outside of Christianity. Consider, for example, Melchizedek, who was a "priest of God Most High", yet living in a pagan society. Consider Naaman the Syrian General who worshipped the True God, even when bowing in his pagan temple.

God has revealed His perfect will in His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't believe anyone who, once seeing Him for who He truly is (and not some false image set up by men), will reject Him, if they seek Truth. But as to those ignorant of Christ as He truly is, I do not know. I trust God's justice and I trust God's mercy.

I'm not the one to decide someone else's eternal fate. I trust that God will be just in His judgment, and that He will also be merciful. I know that my ability to judge good from evil, right from wrong, justice from injustice, is quite limited and subject to failure. But I have faith that God is just, and God is merciful, to which my sense of justic and mercy are but the palest of reflections.

 

[Vic C.]

One thing to consider: no one will be barred from heaven for an unjust reason; no one will be condemned to hell for an unjust reason. All who enter heaven enter by grace; all who enter hell do so by choice.

Once I realized this--once I started trusting that God was, in fact, just--I didn't have so much problems about those who were of other religions (or no religion at all).

Very well said, Bart.

Prolific, you said,

Think about how odd it would be that he let a Shintoist into Heaven, even though the Shintoist never lived a Christian life.

Lets look at this from different angle; did the Shintoist hear the Good News and yet rejected it?

 

[unred typo]

quote by vic C.:
cybershark5886 wrote:Imagician,

Stop spreading lies. I have a certain tolerance for your views but this crosses the line. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I can see the effects of you not recognizing Jesus as God already - that is one of the consequences.

~Josh

Thank you, Josh! You got all the accentuations in that verse in the right places. God did not leave us clueless. He revealed to us how we are saved and though Whom we are saved. It's academic, yet some still continue to seek.

quote by handy:

MEC, I hope you ponder the text that Josh shared, and I encourage you to ponder this one as well:

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13

You’re reading these verses wrong. If there were only one bridge to an island named the JC Bridge, you might say that no one can drive to the island except through JC bridge. This is true but anyone can drive over the bridge and not even know the name of the bridge. They are still going to get to the island through the way provided. If you follow the laws written on your heart and the Spirit of God leads you in the way to eternal life that Jesus taught of love and mercy and forgiveness, in real life and not just talking about it, isn’t this ‘having Christ’ and going through him?

Think about it. If we walk in the light of love, the Spirit of God cleanses us from all sin in the blood of Christ. You’re trying to shut down the bridge to all traffic and not letting anyone cross unless they can say the secret password. That’s wrong. The way is open and no man can shut it. Our job is to tell everyone the name of the bridge so they will know who has built it and paved it, and know that by following the way over the JC bridge they will arrive in heaven. This is the good news of the gospel that we need to tell to those haven‘t ‘heard without a preacher.’

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

.... You’re trying to shut down the bridge to all traffic and not letting anyone cross unless they can say the secret password. That’s wrong. The way is open and no man can shut it. Our job is to tell everyone the name of the bridge so they will know who has built it and paved it, and know that by following the way over the JC bridge they will arrive in heaven. This is the good news of the gospel that we need to tell to those haven‘t ‘heard without a preacher.’

Scripture says Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

How could you call someone Lord, if you don't even know His name?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:.... You’re trying to shut down the bridge to all traffic and not letting anyone cross unless they can say the secret password. That’s wrong. The way is open and no man can shut it. Our job is to tell everyone the name of the bridge so they will know who has built it and paved it, and know that by following the way over the JC bridge they will arrive in heaven. This is the good news of the gospel that we need to tell to those haven‘t ‘heard without a preacher.’


Scripture says Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

How could you call someone Lord, if you don't even know His name?

That’s why we preach in his name. We were talking about those who have never heard his name, Gabby. Do you believe that the only, absolute ONLY way that God can speak to his world is through believers and things they have written about him? How stupid would that be? God has been speaking to all people all over the world throughout time. Through the Holy Spirit he is in constant communication with them, bringing conviction of sin, leading and teaching and correcting them. It’s only when he wants to make a specific proclamation, prophesy or pronouncement of judgment that he uses prophets, or other human beings and written literature. He has written to each person’s heart and he knows the thoughts and intents of every heart, whether they speak back to him audibly or not.

This is just my thoughts and I can’t prove it but I think of Nathaniel when Jesus called him. Remember what Jesus said in John 1:46-50:
And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip said unto him, Come and see.
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile (clever dishonesty, craftiness)!
48Nathanael said unto him, From when or how do you know me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.
49Nathanael answered and said unto him, Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.
50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw you under the fig tree, you believe? You shall see greater things than these.

I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall of his heart as he was under the fig tree. He must have been seriously communing with God and Jesus must have revealed enough of what he had prayed privately or honestly considered while he was there alone, that Nathaniel knew that only the son of God would know these things.

Also remember that Jesus said he that does truth comes to the light:
John 3:20-21
For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

You see, Gabby, God does not live in your little box nor does he play by your rules for him. He's God, and he's sovereign.

 

[Vic C.]

Unred, you are confusing us. You advocate a grace plus works-based salvation, accuse Gabby of putting God in a box... then you say this???

You see, Gabby, God does not live in your little box nor does he play by your rules for him. He's God, and he's sovereign.

:crazyeyes:

 

[cyberjosh]

You’re reading these verses wrong. If there were only one bridge to an island named the JC Bridge, you might say that no one can drive to the island except through JC bridge. This is true but anyone can drive over the bridge and not even know the name of the bridge.

Such an ignorant person wouldn't be "wandering" on this bridge. No one walks with Jesus without acknowledging Him and knowing Him, it's impossible. This is also the purpose of confession: confessing Jesus before men that Jesus will confess us before the Father. Also walking with Jesus can be likened unto walking on the Highway of Holiness in Isaiah, "The unclean will not travel on it, But it will be for him who walks that way, And fools will not wander on it" (Isaiah 35:8). Fools blind to Jesus and who He is & those who refuse to renounce the unclean, hidden things of darkness to follow Jesus will not get to the Father, nor wander on the way to the Father - they will have no part with The Way.

Think about it. If we walk in the light of love, the Spirit of God cleanses us from all sin in the blood of Christ. You’re trying to shut down the bridge to all traffic and not letting anyone cross unless they can say the secret password. That’s wrong. The way is open and no man can shut it. Our job is to tell everyone the name of the bridge so they will know who has built it and paved it, and know that by following the way over the JC bridge they will arrive in heaven. This is the good news of the gospel that we need to tell to those haven‘t ‘heard without a preacher.’

What this idea/approach does is push Jesus out of the way to attempt to "simplify" salvation according to man's standards (or bypass the established path), which in fact makes a more complicated mess than you would think. We could not even walk with God in love if it were not for Jesus, as a consequence in order for God to redeem us he had to create a stumbling block to the flesh (the chief stone which the builders rejected) by becoming manifest as a man (a major stumbling block) on earth, and ordaining salvation through that manifestation. Now Jesus is the only way to salvation, and first only through the fleshly manifestation (Jesus & His sacrifice - which a recognition of then calls for repentance) to even get to the spiritual relationship with God through Christ, as you walk with Christ. You can't take the fleshly redemption (the manner in which it was brought, that is) which Christ brought us, and try to bypass it to jump straight to the spiritual, for it is trying to use the pretense of Christ's salvation and using it to open another door to God, other than the prescribed way set by Christ- who was given all authority in Heaven and Earth. And Jesus with this authority said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

~Josh