Plaguing questions on an ambitous mind...

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
Hmmm. I would have figured that you would have heard it by now, but sure, it can never be posted too much.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Read the whole chapter. It has stuff like this in it.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Sure, I’ve heard this before. I assumed that was what you were going to quote. You said that the “determination as to if we inherit eternal life and where we will spend eternity is based on if one has become born againâ€Â, but you failed to say how one becomes born again or how we can know that we have been born from above. You talk as if there are no requirements to becoming born again. Here’s what I read in my Bible:
Luke 6:35
But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.


1 John 4:7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.
8He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.
16And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


1 John 1:29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one that does righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:9Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
This is pretty basic too.
Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

These verses sound real simple:
Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But I am right back where I started. You gotta know enough about him to have the ability to surrender to His Lordship.

If you hear the gospel and reject it, that would be one thing. If you never hear the name of Christ but you follow the Holy Spirit in your heart, are you obeying Christ or not? Is the Holy Spirit real or not? Where is your faith?
:-?

 

[cyberjosh]

Unred, you never answered my reply to you on the last page (near the bottom). I would like to see your response.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Our salvation is assured as long as we continue in love and good works. There is no guarantee we will not be cast away if we return to following Satan. You become the slave of the one you follow, whether of Christ unto eternal life or of Satan, unto death.

Ok this makes more sense of your view to me a bit. You hold that one can lose their salvation. I have debated over this with myself for years, but I feel fairly convicted that the Bible makes it clear that one can be in danger of falling away even as a Christian, so on that I might agree with you, however this does not make salvation a one of works, not of works lest any man should boast. Rather your salvation demands a consistant display of your changed nature to use the grace God has now given you (don't use his grace in vain - 2 Corinthians 6:1!) to sanctify yourself (our lifetime pursuit of holiness), be cause without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14 - which makes sanctification crucial for the Christian), and this will manifest itself in not only works but inward cleansing and seeking after God.

And for the proof verse that no one who is not born again can enter heaven is in John 3:5 which states clearly that no one will enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born of the Spirit, but of course you already know that. What I don't understand is where you differ on how we should see Jesus. Jesus is our redeemer, and as Scriptures show our God as well, and he should be honored not as a means to an end, but the end itself, who will raise us up and glorify us with Him.

"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls." (1 Peter 1:6-9)

It is because of our faith in Jesus that we obtain the salvation of our souls.

P.S. I'd still like to see your response to my last post.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Sure, I’ve heard this before. I assumed that was what you were going to quote.

Have you heard it so much that you have grown dull to hearing? Have you lost its meaning?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Read it over again and see if you can find everlasting life for whosoever ~ just for believing.

Read this one again, and see if it says that you must be born again in order to get into the kingdom.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [/quote]

You said that the “determination as to if we inherit eternal life and where we will spend eternity is based on if one has become born againâ€Â,...

That would be why Jesus said "You must be born again." Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

... but you failed to say how one becomes born again or how we can know that we have been born from above. You talk as if there are no requirements to becoming born again.

You missed it. Here, I will post it again.
Instructions on how to become born again:
Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You talk as if there are no requirements to becoming born again.

Requirements:
Believing.
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
If you believe, then you repent of your sin. If you believe, then you ask.
Believing comes first. Believing is not the only thing that you will ever do. IF you believe, then your life changes. When your life changes you learn, you obey, you do good works, etc.

You don't go out and pave a road, then ask the foreman to hire you. You get into the road paving kingdom, then you go and do a good work by paving the road. See the difference?

Believing that Jesus paid the price, so that you don't have to. If there is something that you have to do, it is as if you are saying that what Jesus Christ did was not enough, and that you have to cover for Him. Just what would it be that Jesus can not handle, but you can? Scripture says that even faith comes from him.
Jhn 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith...


Your quote here from 1 John is written to people who are already born again. It describes the character traits that the Lord wants us to follow.


Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

If you hear the gospel and reject it, that would be one thing. If you never hear the name of Christ but you follow the Holy Spirit in your heart, are you obeying Christ or not? Is the Holy Spirit real or not? Where is your faith?
:-?

The Holy Spirit is not in the heart of a non-believer, so therefore the one who has never heard the gospel, and is not born again can not be following Christ. It is the act of the Holy Spirit entering into the heart that makes one born again. In other words, when the Holy Spirit enters into the heart of a lost person, the lost person becomes born again. Saved.

Jhn 3:7 ..., Ye must be born again.

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886:
Unred: “ God spoke to Abram, and all of the OT saints, and they will be saved, and none of them knew the name of Jesus. The same is true of those today who never heard his name, yet follow the Spirit of God in their hearts, just as Abram did. Abram’s father was an idolater and yet, he sought the one true God who created heaven and earth. He was a righteous man whose ways pleased God. He listened to his God-given conscience, and knew right from wrong. It’s not impossible, Josh.â€Â


Abraham didn't go to be with the Father when he died. Were it not for Jesus he would have never left Paradise. But based on the promise of The Way (Jesus) coming to restore our relationship with God Abraham could say in anticipation like David, "Thou will not leave my soul in Sheol" because of, and only because of Jesus.

That’s the point I was making here. They lived without the knowledge of even the name of Jesus yet the death and blood of Christ saved them. Why won’t the same principle apply to those today who have never heard the name of Jesus, yet follow their God-given consciences as Abram and the OT saints did?

quote by cybershark5886:
Unred: “Show me the prescribed way that was set by Christ, Josh. You will see that it is by love for God and fellow man, and forgiveness for others who have wronged us, faith in his blood, sacrifice for others less fortunate, humility, godliness and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord.â€Â

Versus (as opposed to) what viewpoint? I don't understand.

Versus the viewpoint that one must name the name ‘Jesus’ and understand the details of the gospel in order to be saved by the blood of Christ. Versus the viewpoint that works are not required for salvation, because it is a gift.

The blood of Christ is a gift, and salvation is a gift that is given to those who are in Christ because they follow Christ, not because God has to save them but because he loves us and made this way available to those who believe in him and obey him.

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886:
Unred: “Our salvation is assured as long as we continue in love and good works. There is no guarantee we will not be cast away if we return to following Satan. You become the slave of the one you follow, whether of Christ unto eternal life or of Satan, unto death.â€Â


Ok this makes more sense of your view to me a bit. You hold that one can lose their salvation. I have debated over this with myself for years, but I feel fairly convicted that the Bible makes it clear that one can be in danger of falling away even as a Christian, so on that I might agree with you, however this does not make salvation a one of works, not of works lest any man should boast. Rather your salvation demands a consistant display of your changed nature to use the grace God has now given you (don't use his grace in vain - 2 Corinthians 6:1!) to sanctify yourself (our lifetime pursuit of holiness), be cause without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14 - which makes sanctification crucial for the Christian), and this will manifest itself in not only works but inward cleansing and seeking after God.

Yay. Try this now: even if your salvation was predicated entirely on your works, it still won’t change the fact that God was not bound to give man salvation in return for good deeds done, so it is given by the grace of God, regardless of whether it is based on works or not, which it is. Do you see that God didn’t need our good deeds and he wasn’t required to make a way of salvation for us at all? He did it because of his great love for all his creation, and he desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and walk in love so that he can save them by means of the blood of Christ.

quote by cybershark5886:
And for the proof verse that no one who is not born again can enter heaven is in John 3:5 which states clearly that no one will enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born of the Spirit, but of course you already know that. What I don't understand is where you differ on how we should see Jesus. Jesus is our redeemer, and as Scriptures show our God as well, and he should be honored not as a means to an end, but the end itself, who will raise us up and glorify us with Him.

"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls." (1 Peter 1:6-9)

It is because of our faith in Jesus that we obtain the salvation of our souls.

P.S. I'd still like to see your response to my last post.

Thanks,

~Josh

Yes, he that has the son has life and he that has not the son abides in death. I don’t have a problem with agreeing that John 3:5 states clearly that no one will enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born of the Spirit, but of course you already know that I know that. What I don’t agree with is that John 3:5 states that no one can understand the kingdom or the doctrines of the kingdom unless they are born again, but you knew that, so I’m not sure what I know that you don’t understand. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
Have you heard it so much that you have grown dull to hearing? Have you lost its meaning?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Read it over again and see if you can find everlasting life for whosoever ~ just for believing.

Read this one again, and see if it says that you must be born again in order to get into the kingdom.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

No, Gabby, I am tiring of being misunderstood though. But then, I bet God is tired of this charade too. When he said that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life, he was putting a real meaning into the word, ‘believes.’ ‘Just believing’ is not just ‘make believe-ing,’ Gabby. To believe means that you accept what Jesus taught us as the way to inherit eternal life and you do it. It’s not just hearing about the life and death and resurrection of Christ and believing that he is the son of God who personally died for your sins. Read on:
Matthew 7:24
Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

John 14:23-24
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:You said that the “determination as to if we inherit eternal life and where we will spend eternity is based on if one has become born againâ€Â,...


That would be why Jesus said "You must be born again." Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

unred typo wrote:
... but you failed to say how one becomes born again or how we can know that we have been born from above. You talk as if there are no requirements to becoming born again.


You missed it. Here, I will post it again.
Instructions on how to become born again:
Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

unred typo wrote:You talk as if there are no requirements to becoming born again.

Requirements:
Believing.
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
If you believe, then you repent of your sin. If you believe, then you ask.
Believing comes first. Believing is not the only thing that you will ever do. IF you believe, then your life changes. When your life changes you learn, you obey, you do good works, etc.

You don't go out and pave a road, then ask the foreman to hire you. You get into the road paving kingdom, then you go and do a good work by paving the road. See the difference?

Believing that Jesus paid the price, so that you don't have to. If there is something that you have to do, it is as if you are saying that what Jesus Christ did was not enough, and that you have to cover for Him. Just what would it be that Jesus can not handle, but you can? Scripture says that even faith comes from him.
Jhn 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith...


Your quote here from 1 John is written to people who are already born again. It describes the character traits that the Lord wants us to follow.


Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Saying “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your house,†is really saying, “Stay on the way of salvation, doing what Jesus taught and you will be saved and so will your whole house if they also believe and follow what Jesus taught.†It is NOT saying, here, believe these facts about Christ and you will all be saved. You must have faith in those sayings of Jesus that he gave so that you will be saved by following what he said to do.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:
If you hear the gospel and reject it, that would be one thing. If you never hear the name of Christ but you follow the Holy Spirit in your heart, are you obeying Christ or not? Is the Holy Spirit real or not? Where is your faith?


The Holy Spirit is not in the heart of a non-believer, so therefore the one who has never heard the gospel, and is not born again can not be following Christ. It is the act of the Holy Spirit entering into the heart that makes one born again. In other words, when the Holy Spirit enters into the heart of a lost person, the lost person becomes born again. Saved.

Jhn 3:7 ..., Ye must be born again.

This is what you slid around saying a while back. John 3:7 says that you must be born again to enter into the heavenly kingdom of God, but it doesn’t say that you must be born again to have the Holy Spirit convict you of sin, or come into your heart and teach you the laws written on your heart, or comfort you when you have been abused for doing something right or speak to you about things you need to notice about God and his world. The Holy Spirit came upon King Saul and he prophesied with the other prophets. He certainly wasn’t living for God at the time. The Spirit won’t be limited by your restrictions. You need to see how the Spirit goes where he wishes and makes whomever he desires born again, not by the will of man, but of God.

Where does it say that:
“the act of the Holy Spirit entering into the heart that makes one born again. In other words, when the Holy Spirit enters into the heart of a lost person, the lost person becomes born again. Saved.â€Â

Really???

I think you’ll find that is not what it says and being born again is not something that we can decide to do, or make rules about.

Where does it say that the one who has never heard the gospel, and is not born again can not be following Christ? Anyone who is spiritually minded can follow the spirit. The Lord is a spirit and they that worship him must do so in the spirit in truth. The words of Christ are the words of God and if you listen to the Spirit speaking to your heart, and follow them, you will be following Christ. Who said you can’t obey the laws written on your heart? What do you think the conscience is? Something invented by Satan? An evolutionary advancement in the human development?

Here is a little tidbit you might like to read. It was written to the disciples but since Jesus told them to make disciples of all men, it still applies today:

John 14:15If you love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you see me: because I live, you shall live also.
20At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
21He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Typo,
It looks to me as if you have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant confused, or mixed together or something.

I see your cart before the horse, and I don't know how to get you to see it. Perhaps if you were to tell God what it is that you are trying to make me understand, He would straighten out all of the doctrines that are not in the right order here.

 

[cyberjosh]

Yay. Try this now: even if your salvation was predicated entirely on your works, it still won’t change the fact that God was not bound to give man salvation in return for good deeds done, so it is given by the grace of God, regardless of whether it is based on works or not, which it is. Do you see that God didn’t need our good deeds and he wasn’t required to make a way of salvation for us at all? He did it because of his great love for all his creation, and he desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and walk in love so that he can save them by means of the blood of Christ.

Yes I agree, that's a basic doctrine of the Scripture. Now I'm even more confused as to what we were disagreeing over in the first place.

Yes, he that has the son has life and he that has not the son abides in death. I don’t have a problem with agreeing that John 3:5 states clearly that no one will enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born of the Spirit, but of course you already know that I know that. What I don’t agree with is that John 3:5 states that no one can understand the kingdom or the doctrines of the kingdom unless they are born again, but you knew that, so I’m not sure what I know that you don’t understand.

I guess I was confused, and still am, at what you were disagreeing with me and handy about when you gave your bridge analogy.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...Yes I agree, that's a basic doctrine of the Scripture. Now I'm even more confused as to what we were disagreeing over in the first place....

Bummer! I just re-read your post asking if he typo was debating if someone could lose their salvation, and thought I had it figured out. :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

That’s the point I was making here. They lived without the knowledge of even the name of Jesus yet the death and blood of Christ saved them. Why won’t the same principle apply to those today who have never heard the name of Jesus, yet follow their God-given consciences as Abram and the OT saints did?

Oh, ok I understand. Yes those in the OT didn't know Christ by name, especially not in that time of types and shadows which were fulfilled in Christ. But now that I understand let me point out the obvious in that what you are making a point of only the rarest cases. It's the "Amazon Jungle" arguement everyone has heard: "What if someone in a remote part of the Jungle has never heard of Jesus or read the bible because they are isolated and they die, can they get to heaven?" The Bible in Romans answers that question by saying that such people will be judged according to their conscience (apart from the law or any knowledge of the Bible) and what was clearly revealed to them (especially in creation itself - Psalm 19). But for those that have explicit knowledge of Jesus (whether they choose to believe in Him or not) they are then obligated to make a choice, there is no getting around Jesus, which is also why he is a stumbling block to some. That time of mass ignorance is past, as it says in Acts 17:30. But you are presenting the "remote isolation/ignorant of Jesus" situation which is the exception rather than the rule.

So that makes me wonder, why were you concerned with making this point?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...It's the "Amazon Jungle" arguement everyone has heard: "What if someone in a remote part of the Jungle has never heard of Jesus or read the bible because they are isolated and they die, can they get to heaven?" ...
So that makes me wonder, why were you concerned with making this point?....

Mashed potatoes ~ mashed again

With all of the concern over the state of Gilligan's salvation, you would think someone would have gotten him off of that island long ago. Sheesh. I coulda just cut and pasted the last ten times we had this discussion.

Ya'll have a nice day.

 

[Drew]

It looks to me as if you have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant confused, or mixed together or something.

This is an interesting statement. Can you explain in what sense you think there is an "old" and a "new" covenant. Although this is a complex issue, I think a more accurate way of describing things is that there is a single covenant which reaches its climax in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I do not believe that "in the Old Covenant" the Jews were justified by "following Torah" and that Jesus comes in with the "New Covenant" and changes the whole justification mechanism. People are all going to be judged / justified in the same fundamental way, I believe.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

It looks to me as if you have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant confused, or mixed together or something.

This is an interesting statement. Can you explain in what sense you think there is an "old" and a "new" covenant. Although this is a complex issue, I think a more accurate way of describing things is that there is a single covenant which reaches its climax in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I do not believe that "in the Old Covenant" the Jews were justified by "following Torah" and that Jesus comes in with the "New Covenant" and changes the whole justification mechanism. People are all going to be judged / justified in the same fundamental way, I believe.

Ah, we put away the "Groundhog Day" game and we are gonna set up the "Semantics" game.

In short, there was a whole bunch of stuff that happened to folks in the days of the Old Testament, and a whole bunch of things that they had to do, that folks in the days of the New Testament don't gotta go through. Typo mentioned Saul, the Holy Spirit leaving him, etc. It is for that reason that I tend to think he is trying to stand with a foot in each covenant.

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886 :

…That time of mass ignorance is past, as it says in Acts 17:30. But you are presenting the "remote isolation/ignorant of Jesus" situation which is the exception rather than the rule.

So that makes me wonder, why were you concerned with making this point?

Well, it was actually Gabby’s idea. She thought it would be a different approach to run my ‘essentials for salvation’ by her “Hypothetical person,†fresh in from the jungle, who has never heard the gospel. She wanted me to tell “H.P†what he must to be saved. I’m not sure how you entered into the scenario, but now it seems that Gabby has tired of her own little game and is trying to blame me for making her play along. Go figure:

Here’s Gabby on Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:28 pm :

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
Hey Typo,
I want to try a different approach, and then perhaps the rest of us could understand what it is that you are trying to teach us.
I would like to introduce you to H.P. (Hypothetical person) H.P. just came to town. He is from the jungle, and has never heard the gospel. H.P. speaks and understands English. I would like you to tell H.P what he must to to be saved.

And here she is not 24 hours later all bored on Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:09 pm:

quote by Gabbylittleangel
cybershark5886 wrote:.[quote:cddf2]..It's the "Amazon Jungle" arguement everyone has heard: "What if someone in a remote part of the Jungle has never heard of Jesus or read the bible because they are isolated and they die, can they get to heaven?" ...
So that makes me wonder, why were you concerned with making this point?.…

Mashed potatoes ~ mashed again

With all of the concern over the state of Gilligan's salvation, you would think someone would have gotten him off of that island long ago. Sheesh. I coulda just cut and pasted the last ten times we had this discussion.

Ya'll have a nice day.[/quote:cddf2]

You have a nice day, Gabby. Don’t forget to take your H.P. with you.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabby:
In short, there was a whole bunch of stuff that happened to folks in the days of the Old Testament, and a whole bunch of things that they had to do, that folks in the days of the New Testament don't gotta go through. Typo mentioned Saul, the Holy Spirit leaving him, etc. It is for that reason that I tend to think he is trying to stand with a foot in each covenant.

I mentioned King Saul to show that the Holy Spirit even in the OT didn’t require that a person be born again to enter them, nor did the presence of the Holy Spirit in the person mean that they were automatically ‘born again’.

The whole covenant thing is a little confusing and I don’t even claim to have it all straightened out but there are more than one, although some seem to be repeats of the previous ones.

Hebrews 12:24 seems to say that the old covenant was not the one with the Jews, but went as far back as Adam and Eve:

24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

We don’t have to do the dozens of rites and rituals connected with the Old Laws for the sacrificial system. That doesn’t mean that the New covenant doesn’t include blood or a sacrifice. It’s the blood of the savior, not an animal. It’s called a new and living way because the Holy Spirit takes the blood and applies it to our sins as we repent and confess them and the Lord ever lives to make intercession for us. There is the death of our old nature and the empowering of our new nature in Christ. We crucify the flesh, but we live on in Christ by love for one another. I miss JohntheBaptist. He was a little cryptic but he had a message that usually included the new covenant. I guess he got tired of tryingto explain it to us “dull of hearing ones.â€Â

 

[cyberjosh]

Unred,

Well, it was actually Gabby’s idea. She thought it would be a different approach to run my ‘essentials for salvation’ by her “Hypothetical person,†fresh in from the jungle, who has never heard the gospel. She wanted me to tell “H.P†what he must to be saved. I’m not sure how you entered into the scenario, but now it seems that Gabby has tired of her own little game and is trying to blame me for making her play along. Go figure:

Ok, that explains a few things, however looking back at it in that light, you still wouldn't tell (when witnessing) a person fresh from the Jungle [H.P.] (as opposed to what we just talked about - of someone who lived and died without ever hearing of salvation through Christ - no one ever told them anything) to just then follow their conscience, you would instead preach to them the explicit and unadulterated Gospel (in which that good news & salvation is through Christ only - as I just established). From that view, I have to agree with Gabby's approach.

----------------------------------------

Well you've answered most of my questions so far, however until this topic progresses more I have just one more unanswered question, which I asked above (which I will now quote):

I guess I was confused, and still am, at what you were disagreeing with me and handy about when you gave your bridge analogy.

If you could explain that, that would be helpful.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: Plaguing questions on an ambitious mind...

Well, it was actually Gabby’s idea. She thought it would be a different approach to run my ‘essentials for salvation’ by her “Hypothetical person,†fresh in from the jungle, who has never heard the gospel. She wanted me to tell “H.P†what he must to be saved. I’m not sure how you entered into the scenario, but now it seems that Gabby has tired of her own little game and is trying to blame me for making her play along. Go figure:
....You have a nice day, Gabby. Don’t forget to take your H.P. with you.

You answered my question with your response. Right up to the part where I said that I disagree.
the hypothetical person was to find out what you believe to be God's plan of salvation, not so much what does God do about lost people in the jungles; that is the conversation that we don't need to have again, and it appeared that my bringing H.P. out of the jungle was going to drag us back into it.

I mentioned King Saul to show that the Holy Spirit even in the OT didn’t require that a person be born again to enter them, nor did the presence of the Holy Spirit in the person mean that they were automatically ‘born again’.

The whole covenant thing is a little confusing and I don’t even claim to have it all straightened out but there are more than one, although some seem to be repeats of the previous ones.

Hebrews 12:24 seems to say that the old covenant was not the one with the Jews, but went as far back as Adam and Eve:

24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

We don’t have to do the dozens of rites and rituals connected with the Old Laws for the sacrificial system. That doesn’t mean that the New covenant doesn’t include blood or a sacrifice. It’s the blood of the savior, not an animal. It’s called a new and living way because the Holy Spirit takes the blood and applies it to our sins as we repent and confess them and the Lord ever lives to make intercession for us. There is the death of our old nature and the empowering of our new nature in Christ. We crucify the flesh, but we live on in Christ by love for one another. I miss JohntheBaptist. He was a little cryptic but he had a message that usually included the new covenant. I guess he got tired of trying to explain it to us “dull of hearing ones.â€Â

So, enlighten me.

Is our concern now with:
1.)the state of salvation of people who lived over 2000 years ago?
Or is it 2.) concern with the state of salvation of people today, and if they need to be born again or not, and what happens with the new birth?
Or 3.) concern with what born again people must do, once they are born again?

 

[unred typo]

OK, Josh, let me go back and see it again. I am really frustrated as to why you have a question about what I disagreed with you and Handy on.

cybershark5886 wrote:
Imagician,

Stop spreading lies. I have a certain tolerance for your views but this crosses the line. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." I can see the effects of you not recognizing Jesus as God already - that is one of the consequences.

I didn’t see that MEC was “spreading lies†at all.

quote by handy:

MEC, I hope you ponder the text that Josh shared, and I encourage you to ponder this one as well:

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13

This was my previous answer:

unred wrote:

You’re reading these verses wrong. If there were only one bridge to an island named the JC Bridge, you might say that no one can drive to the island except through JC bridge. This is true but anyone can drive over the bridge and not even know the name of the bridge. They are still going to get to the island through the way provided. If you follow the laws written on your heart and the Spirit of God leads you in the way to eternal life that Jesus taught of love and mercy and forgiveness, in real life and not just talking about it, isn’t this ‘having Christ’ and going through him?

Think about it. If we walk in the light of love, the Spirit of God cleanses us from all sin in the blood of Christ. You’re trying to shut down the bridge to all traffic and not letting anyone cross unless they can say the secret password. That’s wrong. The way is open and no man can shut it. Our job is to tell everyone the name of the bridge so they will know who has built it and paved it, and know that by following the way over the JC bridge they will arrive in heaven. This is the good news of the gospel that we need to tell to those haven‘t ‘heard without a preacher.’

I guess that didn’t make it clearer at all. If I try to rebuild the bridge analogy, it’s only confuse you more, I’m afraid. Look again at what MEC offered:

Most that follow the miriad of different 'forms' of Christianity have a 'belief' that insists that one MUST accept Christ as Their Savior or they CANNOT obtain 'Everlasting life'. The FACT is that we do not KNOW that. For there is much evidence offered in The Word that God is able to do what God 'chooses' to do and there is little that we are able to 'understand' concerning these choices.

Those judged will be judged by what's in their hearts. And there is much written, chastising the Hebrews and Jews, (God's chosen), pointing out that there were 'others' that didn't even know of the TRUE God that followed His will, (in their hearts), simply by seeking and following that which was inherently ingrained into humanity.

Today, we have people who have designed a little formula to get a person ‘saved’ The methods vary from church to church but it is basically: “Say this, believe that, accept this, invite Jesus Christ in and presto! You’re born again, never to be lost! Let’s all listen to the angels rejoice! Welcome to the family! Now get you list of dos and donts on Sunday morning, and we expect you to be good, although it’s not required ….for your salvation, that was all paid for on the cross. Now we only work for crowns and better mansions…â€Â

That is not what Jesus taught us whatsoever.

He said to follow what he taught in order to inherit eternal life. He didn’t say we had to be circumcised or not eat certain foods. He didn’t teach about proper animals to sacrifice, or when and how to sacrifice them. He didn’t even teach about how he was going to replace those animals with his own body on the cross. He taught that in order to be saved, we must love one another from the heart, not just following the law outwardly, while still hating our brothers deep inside where no one could see it. There has to be the love of God in your heart. If you have the love of God in your heart, you won’t do any evil against your fellow man (you’ll be keeping the ten commandments, oh yes. ) and you will do deeds of love, mercy and compassion toward them.

Now, you must be screaming, “but that’s works! It’s not of works lest any man should boast!†What Jesus preached was good works, plain and simple. That is the way to inherit eternal life because he told us so, and either you believe him or you don’t, plain and simple.

Now, does that mean that our good works save us? No, because if God had not extended mercy to Adam, none of us would even be here to do works at all. Adam and Eve would have died, never to be heard from again. So we are saved by his mercy and love for us. God made a way that man could be redeemed and do good works to be saved. So we are saved by this plan of grace that he gave to us.

Look at the plan. First, a perfect substitute father of mankind had to be found. Since there were none perfect, God gave his ‘word’ to come to be born of a woman, live a sinless life and tell all about how to inherit eternal life. So we are saved by the gift of his son. At the end of his ministry, all of man’s sins were placed on him and he died for those sins. So we are saved by his death on the cross. Then all who faithfully follow his ways, at some point become children of the new Adam, and are placed in him to be born of God, just as they were born of the old Adam. So we are saved by being born again in the new Adam.

How are we going to be born of the new Adam; Jesus Christ? Jesus said, in Luke 6:35:
But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Now that sounds like works to me. It sure sounds like works to a Calvinist, since most of them will tolerate no lifting of the finger whatsoever to do anything to inherit eternal life.


Will we be saved by our works? If God judges them worthy of eternal life, he will reward us with eternal life. It’s going to be according to his judgment, his mercy and by his grace that we will be saved or not, regardless of how much we say ‘Lord, Lord’ and demand that we are worthy because we followed the prescribed ‘plan of salvation’ authorized by our particular denomination or whether we did all kinds of good works or not. He is going to judge us by our heart’s motives, just as MEC said, and Jesus said and Paul said and the Bible says, and what I agreed with.

I hope that is clear, because it sure is spelled out in long hand. :-D

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
So, enlighten me.

Is our concern now with:
1.)the state of salvation of people who lived over 2000 years ago?
Or is it 2.) concern with the state of salvation of people today, and if they need to be born again or not, and what happens with the new birth?
Or 3.) concern with what born again people must do, once they are born again?

It’s not 3, because born again people know what they are supposed to do, since they are born of the Spirit and are past the point where they are still wandering in and out of darkness. This is what the Bible says about born again ones:

1 John 2:24-29 Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one that does righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:9-11
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
11For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

So, I would say #2 is our concern. We can look at those who lived 2000 years ago and read what the Lord gave to them to do to inherit eternal life, because that is exactly what he expects us to do as well, or he wouldn‘t have commanded his disciples to preach whatsoever he had commanded them, to the entire world, would he?

I suggest that you scroll up one post and read what I wrote to Josh. I think it is quite clear, but I've been wrong before. :-D