[_ Old Earth _] Plants?

Nah....I dont think I wanna define the terms. I'll just leave the question open to the forum. Just to see if anyone wants to chime in.

Anyone got evidence of plants evolving?
Of course you don't want to define the terms, because that would expose you to the danger of either being shown that your definitions were poorly thought out or, possibly even more disturbingly, being provided with the necessary evidence (as defined by yourself) to demonstrate the validity of evolution (as defined by yourself). And you wouldn't want to risk either of those possibilities, especially the last.

Again I refer you to earlier posts in this thread that discuss this very evidence. Perhaps you would care to address them?
 
Of course you don't want to define the terms, because that would expose you to the danger of either being shown that your definitions were poorly thought out or, possibly even more disturbingly, being provided with the necessary evidence (as defined by yourself) to demonstrate the validity of evolution (as defined by yourself). And you wouldn't want to risk either of those possibilities, especially the last.

Again I refer you to earlier posts in this thread that discuss this very evidence. Perhaps you would care to address them?

Nah...I'm too lazy to sift through the entire thread.

I have no definitions of any terms, I'm totally new to all of this.

You seem pretty knowledgable though...but judging by your reluctance to simply state your evidence concisely in a single post for me just makes me believe that the evidence you do have is incredibly flakey.

Anyone else got any documentation on how plants evolve?
 
Nah...I'm too lazy to sift through the entire thread.

I have no definitions of any terms, I'm totally new to all of this.

You seem pretty knowledgable though...but judging by your reluctance to simply state your evidence concisely in a single post for me just makes me believe that the evidence you do have is incredibly flakey.

Anyone else got any documentation on how plants evolve?
Why do you suppose I might be 'reluctant', as you put it? If you're too lazy to read through a thread as short as this, why do you suppose I should be any less lazy in meeting your demands when to all intents and purposes I have already done this a matter of a few posts prior to your participating in the thread?
 
Why do you suppose I might be 'reluctant', as you put it? If you're too lazy to read through a thread as short as this, why do you suppose I should be any less lazy in meeting your demands when to all intents and purposes I have already done this a matter of a few posts prior to your participating in the thread?

Lolz....Kalv buddy. You put so much energy and time into chastising me, you could'a given me the relevant info 10 times over by now. Lolz.
 
Did plants evolve?

by Alexander Williams

Have you ever seen a fossil plant series in a museum display or textbook on evolution? I haven’t. When I studied botany at university in the 1960s they taught us evolution and paleobotany (the study of plant fossils) but not a single fossil series was ever presented as evidence that plant evolution actually did occur. So, when I saw a new book recently entitled The Diversity and Evolution of Plants, dated 1995 and published by the CRC Press, a reputable publisher of top quality scientific manuals and textbooks, I was keen to see what new evidence had arisen during the last 30 years of research. The author, Dr Lorentz Pearson, appeared to be well qualified, being a Professor of Botany with a string of credits to his name.

In the Preface, Professor Pearson asserts that evolution is a fact attested to by the fossil record. The Introduction is entirely devoted to a narrative description of that evolutionary history.

The main body of the book consists of 18 chapters that deal with the whole plant kingdom at the level of its 29 classes. Each chapter contains a diagram of the ancestor-descendant relationships between each class and its near neighbours and between the subdivisions within each class; such diagrams are called ‘phylogenetic trees’. On my first run through the book I combined the information in the phylogenetic trees to make a single tree so that I could see Professor Pearson’s complete evolutionary history in visual form (see Figure). I have avoided, where possible, the rather long and obscure technical names for the classes and have just identified each class with the common name of a representative member.



PLANTDIA.JPG

Figure. Professor Pearson's phylogenetic tree (evolutionary history) of plants. Not a single link in this tree is supported by fossil evidence.

The figure shows that, according to Pearson, every class evolved from another class, with the bacteria being the original ancestor of all the others. There was only one questionable connection; Pearson was uncertain whether the brown seaweeds had evolved directly from the dinoflagellates, or whether they had arisen indirectly from the dinoflagellates via the yellow-green algae. According to Pearson’s diagram the history of plant evolution is almost complete.

Each chapter is divided up into consistent sub-sections, one of which is headed ‘Phylogeny and Classification’. Phylogeny means ‘evolutionary history’. So I then began to read what Professor Pearson had to say about the fossil evidence from which he derived his evolutionary histories. In the face of the confident Preface, Introduction and phylogenetic tree diagrams, what I found was rather surprising.
In all 18 chapters, not a single fossil series was quoted or illustrated to support the phylogenetic trees! Many groups have excellent fossil records, but not once does he indicate that there is unequivocal evidence of transition from one to another, as evolution requires.

His written descriptions of evolutionary history are all couched in uncertain terms, using words like ‘probably’, ‘may have’, ‘apparently’, ‘presumably’, etc. The only firm statement that I could find was this one on page 503: ‘The evolution of the Coniferales from the Cordaitales has been carefully worked out by Rudolf Florin, (Banks 1970)’. But Professor Pearson appears not to have read the work by Florin, as his reference is not to Florin’s original work but to another author (Banks) who merely referred to Florin’s work. All of which suggests that Professor Pearson had no firm evidence at all in front of him when he made his grandiose claims about evolution within the plant kingdom!

And not only is there a lack of positive evidence for evolution, there are even contradictions between the tree diagrams and the written descriptions. On p. 367, his phylogenetic tree shows that in the calcareous green algae there are two sub-groups, one of which evolved from the other. But on p. 386 he says this class has an excellent fossil record which shows that the two sub-groups were separate from the beginning! On p. 407, his phylogenetic tree claims that the mosses evolved from the liverworts, but on p. 413 he lists four reasons why this arrangement is not supported by the fossil evidence! And on p. 447 he admits that there is ‘considerable difference of opinion’ on the alignment of the upper part of the phylogenetic tree, where a lot of the best fossils are!

So, has the case for plant evolution advanced at all in the last 30 years? The answer seems to be a resounding ‘no’!

Like so many other people, Professor Pearson appears to have just assumed that evolution is a fact, and has filled in the gaps in the evidence with imagination. Here is an example: on p. 550 he reports that ‘Herngreen (1974) studied Chloranthus-like stamens of fossils from the Turonian epoch (Cretaceous) and reported that the fossilized pollen grains were identical to those of extant Chloranthus, thus casting light on the evolution of Chloranthaceae’. Notice that the evidence showed no evolution (the fossil pollen was identical to modern pollen) yet Professor Pearson says this casts light on the evolution of that family. His belief in evolution turned the evidence for no evolution into evidence for evolution!

I think it is not unreasonable to conclude, from the evidence available, that plant evolution never happened. (HOORAY!)



From - answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i4/plants.asp
 
Lolz....Kalv buddy. You put so much energy and time into chastising me, you could'a given me the relevant info 10 times over by now. Lolz.
I simply point out that you reap what you sow and adopting an air of righteous superiority does nothing to convince me that you have any serious intent of either discussing things reasonably or of offering your own understanding for consideration.
 
Did plants evolve?

by Alexander Williams

Have you actually read the critiqued book yourself, or are you just relying on Williams's account of what it does and does not show? Given that Williams has been shown to be using information and data out of context in an article entitled Flaws in dating the earth as ancient (critiqued by Roland Watts in Flaws in Dating? at noanswersingenesis.org.au/flaws_in_dating.htm), why should we suppose that he has done anything different here and is, in contrast, understanding and reporting Pearson's work accurately?

Just curious.
 
Have you actually read the critiqued book yourself, or are you just relying on Williams's account of what it does and does not show? Given that Williams has been shown to be using information and data out of context in an article entitled Flaws in dating the earth as ancient (critiqued by Roland Watts in Flaws in Dating? at noanswersingenesis.org.au/flaws_in_dating.htm), why should we suppose that he has done anything different here and is, in contrast, understanding and reporting Pearson's work accurately?

Just curious.

And we see yet again...instead of addressing the topic you simply whine at my posting methods and my sources and blow a lot of hot air at nothing like a grumpy little child and advise me to go off and study theoretical science. I have no desire to waste my time with such folly.

If you see errors in the article then show them. If not..then we move along.
 
And we see yet again...instead of addressing the topic you simply whine at my posting methods and my sources and blow a lot of hot air at nothing like a grumpy little child and advise me to go off and study theoretical science. I have no desire to waste my time with such folly.

If you see errors in the article then show them. If not..then we move along.
So that's a 'No', then, you haven't read the book being critiqued. And I guess that means you haven't read the article that discusses Williams's techniques in another article he has written critiquing dating methodologies. You are very sensitive if you regard simple questions as 'whining' and pointing out that Williams's approach is perhaps less than unbiased as 'blow[ing] hot air'. And telling us that you don't want to 'waste my time with such folly' only demostrates even further your reluctance to educate yourself about subjects you are ready to offer criticisms of that aren't even your own.

Okay, let's take Williams's review of Pearson's book. First of all, I haven't read Pearson's book and neither have you, so neither of us has any basis on which to judge the worth of Williams's article. the only information I have regarding Wiliams's methods is the one referred to, which suggests that they are less than fair and unbiased.

In the second place, a review of a book which claims that that book does not present evidence of plant evolution that the reviewer finds persuasive is not the same as actually showing that the book does no such thing nor does it demonstrate that such evidence exists and that the book fails to adequately and effectively present it. Indeed, if this is the only reference work or paper on research into plant evolution that Williams has read between the mid-60s and 1995, one wonders on exactly how familiar he is with that work at all. As no date is provided for the review either, we have no idea whether Williams only read this book recently, in which case one wonders again what familiarity with research he has that has been carried out since 1995.

And finally let's look at some of Williams's comments. Well, there seem to be a few nits picked, a good few statements about Williams's (unsurprisingly) not being convinced by Pearson's arguments and the lack of evidence that he says Pearson presents. But, as an example of that lack of evidence Williams presents only one actual instance: he says that the claim that the identicality of fossilized pollen grains from fossilized Chloranthus-like stamens with extant Chloranthus shows evidence of evolutionary development is wrong because the pollen is, indeed, identical. However, what he entirely avoids addressing is whether the Chloranthus-like stamens referred to are identical with extant Chloranthus stamens and, if they are not (as the suffix -like indicates), then how the identicality of pollen grains, but the variation in stamens is not evidence of evolution.

So if I was you I would reserve my cheers before parading this review as convincing argument against evidence for the evolution of plants. At best, it is an argument that Pearson has failed to present evidence that Williams finds convincing. As, in order to publish on AiG's website Williams has to adhere to AiG's Statement of Faith, which includes these articles -

4.1 Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation, spanning approximately 4,000 years from creation to Christ.
....
4.6 By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.


- as Mandy Rice-Davies said of Lord Astor denying either having had an affair with or even meeting her, 'Well, he would, wouldn't he?'
 
You adore the sound of your own voice dont you Kalvan?

It seems the only relevant part of your post is this riddle:

he says that the claim that the identicality of fossilized pollen grains from fossilized Chloranthus-like stamens with extant Chloranthus shows evidence of evolutionary development is wrong because the pollen is, indeed, identical.

However, what he entirely avoids addressing is whether the Chloranthus-like stamens referred to are identical with extant Chloranthus stamens and, if they are not (as the suffix -like indicates), then how the identicality of pollen grains, but the variation in stamens is not evidence of evolution.

.....which is so confusing I can barely decode it.

Your saying he's right for saying that two identical fossils cant be used as evidence of evolution....ok....agreed. (bolded part)

But then you lose me on the second part. What are you saying?

The general thrust of the article is that the guy who wrote the book doesnt bring a single fossil series as evidence of his wack theories. Thats the point.

There is no physical evidence. Just musings. So why is his book worth anything scientifically. It's just the guys thoughts with no real back up of fossils.

It's hokum.
 
You adore the sound of your own voice dont you Kalvan?
When I don't address your posts in the detail you seem to think they deserve you complain ('instead of addressing the topic you simply whine at my posting methods and my sources and blow a lot of hot air') and when I do address them in some detail, you also complain ('You adore the sound of your own voice dont you Kalvan'). I think you need to make your mind up.
It seems the only relevant part of your post is this riddle:

.....which is so confusing I can barely decode it.

Your saying he's right for saying that two identical fossils cant be used as evidence of evolution....ok....agreed. (bolded part)
You're right, I made a typo which has muddled the sense of what I was saying, for which I apologize. What I intended to write was this:

However, what he entirely avoids addressing is whether the Chloranthus-like stamens referred to are identical with extant Chloranthus stamens and, if they are not (as the suffix -like indicates), then how, despite the identicality of pollen grains, the variation in stamens is not evidence of evolution.

What I am saying is that variation in stamens and identicality in pollen grains indicates that the later plant is descended from but not identical to the earlier one; in other words that evolutionary development has occurred in the plant's lineage. I hope that makes my point clearer.
But then you lose me on the second part. What are you saying?

The general thrust of the article is that the guy who wrote the book doesnt bring a single fossil series as evidence of his wack theories. Thats the point.

There is no physical evidence. Just musings. So why is his book worth anything scientifically. It's just the guys thoughts with no real back up of fossils.

It's hokum.
The points raised that you have not addressed include these:

• Williams's failure to present information in a fair and unbiased way in another paper casting some doubt on his intention to do so in this review.

• Williams's ideological commitment to presenting a particular point of view in respect of articles published on AiG's website.

• The fact that simply pointing out that a particular book does not provide evidence for plant evolution to the reviewer's satisfaction is not the same as showing that such evidence does not exist, nor that the critiqued book does not present other evidence that the reviewer has decided is not relevant or we do not need to be privy to.

You have presented a review of book in which the reviewer offers the opinion that the book does not do what it sets out to do. This is nothing more than a criticism of the book's inadequacies and tells us nothing at all about the evidence for the evolution of plants. The book may be 'hokum' (which, of course, you know because you have read it), but that does not mean that evolutionary evidence is also 'hokum'. You assume that because a particular explanation of a phenomenon is allegedly inadequate and incomplete, then the phenomenon itself is immediately discredited rather than the explanation provided.
 
What I am saying is that variation in stamens and identicality in pollen grains indicates that the later plant is descended from but not identical to the earlier one; in other words that evolutionary development has occurred in the plant's lineage. I hope that makes my point clearer.

No it just means that the stamens are different and the pollen is the same! Just how God created them. Doesnt mean there was any kinda evolution involved. Lol.
 
No it just means that the stamens are different and the pollen is the same! Just how God created them. Doesnt mean there was any kinda evolution involved. Lol.
Assertion without evidence, unfortunately. Haven't you elsewhere stated that you believe in and accept micro-evolution? How is this not an example of micro-evolution, i.e. evolution within the (unspecified and unspecifiable) biblical 'kind'? After all, it's 'still' a 'Chloranthus', isn't it?

Still unable/unwilling/not interested enough to reply to the other points, I note.
 
Assertion without evidence, unfortunately. Haven't you elsewhere stated that you believe in and accept micro-evolution? How is this not an example of micro-evolution, i.e. evolution within the (unspecified and unspecifiable) biblical 'kind'? After all, it's 'still' a 'Chloranthus', isn't it?

Great. It's Micro-evolution. Fantastic. Hey everyone! Kalvans proved micro-evolution!

So were back to square 1. No evidence for Macro-evolution. The search continues. Maybe NASA will find it when they send probes to the andromeda system! Lolz.

Still unable/unwilling/not interested enough to reply to the other points, I note.

Thats cos your other points are irrelevant. why do I care about what the guy said in a completely different artical or where his allegiances are?
 
Great. It's Micro-evolution. Fantastic. Hey everyone! Kalvans proved micro-evolution!

So were back to square 1. No evidence for Macro-evolution. The search continues. Maybe NASA will find it when they send probes to the andromeda system! Lolz.
Congratulations on missing/ignoring/misunderstanding yet another point.
Thats cos your other points are irrelevant. why do I care about what the guy said in a completely different artical or where his allegiances are?
You have atready shown the extent of your willingness to demonstrate that you care about nothing that does not conform to your worldview. That you don't care about someone's motives and intentions says it all, really. And you have still failed to address any of the points arising from my comments on the critique itself.
 
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Way back when earth was young the atmosphere would be pretty nasty for us. It was full of Co2 and Sulphur compounds and other reduced chemicals.

There are species of life that thrive in this enviroment Purple-Sluphur bactira these normally today are found in bogs or anoxic enviroments. They do undergo photosynthisis but they don't produce oxygen and they respire Sulphur. They are purple because there photosynthetic pigments are adapted to different light frequences.

There are many species like this with alien metabolism found in your very back yard. It's probable that the early earth was populated by these species.

These early species are Obligate Anerobes Oxygen is a toxic substance to them. it destorys there biochemistry. the early Bactria that engaged in photosynthsis did so as a defensive mechanism, to kill all other competition. This was so effective it nearly wiped everything on the planet out. plunging earth into an ice age (As they turned all the Co2 into Oxygen) Rocks from this time are highly oxidized indicating this shift in atmosphere.

Those species are the early Cyanobactira and have been found in fossiles 3000Million years ago this

It was a section of early eukaryotes that aquired those cyanobactiria via endosymbyosis and gained it's metabolic function these are the choroplasts in plant cells today we know today (Well with plant cells they also had to become clonial and muticellular) we know this to be the case because thos bactiria they retained there own independant DNA inside themselves and you can sequence it and see that it is quite closely related to a Cyanobactira strain.
 
I got more info on pants here:

pants - Wiktionary

Trousers are an item of clothing worn on the lower part of the body from the waist to the ankles, covering both legs separately


oops plants.

Study shows how ancient plants and soil fungi turned the Earth green

...
The research, which was published today (2 November 2010) in Nature Communications, has provided essential missing evidence showing that an ancient plant group worked together with soil-dwelling fungi to 'green' the Earth in the early Palaeozoic era, nearly half a billion years ago.
The research, which also involved experts from the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, Imperial College London and the University of Sydney, has provided new insights into our understanding of the evolving dynamic behaviour of the Earth's land plants and fungi....
 
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