Please excuse my posting of blasphemy

[By Grace]

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants."

original citation:"Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249.

as noted http://www.religioustolerance.org/ldsblood.htm (emphasis added)

This retching piece of blasphemy is posted ONLY as a reference to the lds religion's teaching about the insufficiency of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. By doing this, I am intending to demonstrate some of the MANY hate-filled statements of the leaders of mormonism, and to dispel any notion that the cult is in any sense of the words a "restoration of Christianity"

There are several lds who post here, and universally, (both here and on other sites) I see that they have one objective: distort and deny the truth of what their cult teaches. So I see no problem with pointing out some of the more horrid things of their many-faceted heresies.

Clearly the Bible does not teach self-atonement; yet there will be some mormon apologists who will complain that this is not the truth, or attempt to say that I am making things up. I am not.

Depending upon the responses to this I plan to demonstrate using primary sources the continual hatred that mormons have for Christians, and the historical results of that hatred. For anyone to believe that the mormons are "nice" to Christians is to be ignorant of their teachings, and what their leaders said over the years. As a result, I believe it will be necessary to directly and fairly quote them.

 

[Webb]

Amen!

 

[proveallthings]

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants."

original citation:"Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249.

as noted http://www.religioustolerance.org/ldsblood.htm (emphasis added)

This retching piece of blasphemy is posted ONLY as a reference to the lds religion's teaching about the insufficiency of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. By doing this, I am intending to demonstrate some of the MANY hate-filled statements of the leaders of mormonism, and to dispel any notion that the cult is in any sense of the words a "restoration of Christianity"

There are several lds who post here, and universally, (both here and on other sites) I see that they have one objective: distort and deny the truth of what their cult teaches. So I see no problem with pointing out some of the more horrid things of their many-faceted heresies.

Clearly the Bible does not teach self-atonement; yet there will be some mormon apologists who will complain that this is not the truth, or attempt to say that I am making things up. I am not.

Depending upon the responses to this I plan to demonstrate using primary sources the continual hatred that mormons have for Christians, and the historical results of that hatred. For anyone to believe that the mormons are "nice" to Christians is to be ignorant of their teachings, and what their leaders said over the years. As a result, I believe it will be necessary to directly and fairly quote them.

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christiansâ€. So let me ask you about what you believe in the atonement. Do you believe that Christ’s atonement covers the sins of a Muslim who calls for the death of Christians to his dying day?

 

[George Muller]

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants."

original citation:"Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249.

as noted http://www.religioustolerance.org/ldsblood.htm (emphasis added)

This retching piece of blasphemy is posted ONLY as a reference to the lds religion's teaching about the insufficiency of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. By doing this, I am intending to demonstrate some of the MANY hate-filled statements of the leaders of mormonism, and to dispel any notion that the cult is in any sense of the words a "restoration of Christianity"

There are several lds who post here, and universally, (both here and on other sites) I see that they have one objective: distort and deny the truth of what their cult teaches. So I see no problem with pointing out some of the more horrid things of their many-faceted heresies.

Clearly the Bible does not teach self-atonement; yet there will be some mormon apologists who will complain that this is not the truth, or attempt to say that I am making things up. I am not.

Depending upon the responses to this I plan to demonstrate using primary sources the continual hatred that mormons have for Christians, and the historical results of that hatred. For anyone to believe that the mormons are "nice" to Christians is to be ignorant of their teachings, and what their leaders said over the years. As a result, I believe it will be necessary to directly and fairly quote them.

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christians”. So let me ask you about what you believe in the atonement. Do you believe that Christ’s atonement covers the sins of a Muslim who calls for the death of Christians to his dying day?

Now how could the Blood of Christ cover the murder-sin of a muslim, unless that muslim turned to Christ by faith and accepted His Blood as the price for his sins? The Blood covered Pauls murder because he came to Christ.

 

[proveallthings]

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christiansâ€. So let me ask you about what you believe in the atonement. Do you believe that Christ’s atonement covers the sins of a Muslim who calls for the death of Christians to his dying day?

Now how could the Blood of Christ cover the murder-sin of a muslim, unless that muslim turned to Christ by faith and accepted His Blood as the price for his sins? The Blood covered Pauls murder because he came to Christ.

And what if this Muslim only ever new lies about Christianity and was never taught the true gospel of Christ, do you still believe the atonement would not cover his sins?

 

[By Grace]

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christians”.

So now the tactic is to say, "Joe did not mean what he said when he said this: 'There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt.' "

That is really a sad thing when the words of your savior, JS cannot be defended, and you wish to go off onto discussing the mormon doctrine of "blood atonement" by saying that it was to mormons he was speaking, and therefore to mormons only does that apply. This nay be the first time you used that with me, but on another site, when the ugly and hate-filled words of your leaders, past and present have spewed hatred towards Christians, their apologetic was "Those people were speaking to Mormons, so they are relevant to mormons only."

As to the issue of Muslims, I respectfully note that you are introducing a RED HERRING, which has no bearing on this OP. However if you want to discuss that issue of the religion of Islam on another thread please let me know when you begin it. That way we will not confuse things here on this thread,

 

[Deborah13]

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants."

This sounds to me to that the author is talking about people who believe Jesus was the Son of God and died on the cross.

This author does not appear to be speaking about the world at large, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc.

He specifically says people who have made a covenant with God. Not Allah, or no covenant with God (atheists).

One's own blood can never atone for sin.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

What is on those "filthy rags"? The blood of man, humankind.

Mankind's blood can Never atone for sin. Only the blood of Christ, can.

 

[By Grace]

What is on those "filthy rags"? The blood of man, humankind.

Actually, there is something more gross than that ...

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." original citation:"Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249.

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christians”. So let me ask you about what you believe in the atonement. Do you believe that Christ’s atonement covers the sins of a Muslim who calls for the death of Christians to his dying day?

Hello Deborah13:

Please notice the author and the place where the sermon was delivered. Smith was making a universal claim that the blood of Jesus Christ is insufficient to atone for any sin of anyone who broke any one of the 10 Commandments. That includes all of humanity

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
​

You see, because sin is universal, there must be a particular remedy for the totality of sin in any person's life. To have our sins paid for requires that we have One who is greater than any one of us make the Atonement for ALL of us, so that through believing in the sufficiency of what Jesus did personally for me on the cross at Calvary is able to have me completely forgiven forever.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Please excuse my posting of blasphemy

Since we excused the other blasphemous posts today, I'd say you are ok.

 

[Deborah13]

To have our sins paid for requires that we have One who is greater than any one of us make the Atonement for ALL of us, so that through believing in the sufficiency of what Jesus did personally for me on the cross at Calvary is able to have me completely forgiven forever.

I think that is what I said, "Mankind's blood can Never atone for sin. Only the blood of Christ, can. "

 

[Deborah13]

Since we excused the other blasphemous posts today, I'd say you are ok

Glad to see you have been in such fine form lately, Pizza.

 

[Pizzaguy]

You know the posts I'm talking about.... ;)

 

[gr8grace]

Please excuse my posting of blasphemy

Since we excused the other blasphemous posts today, I'd say you are ok.

I am beginning to really like you Sir!

 

[George Muller]

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christians”. So let me ask you about what you believe in the atonement. Do you believe that Christ’s atonement covers the sins of a Muslim who calls for the death of Christians to his dying day?

Now how could the Blood of Christ cover the murder-sin of a muslim, unless that muslim turned to Christ by faith and accepted His Blood as the price for his sins? The Blood covered Pauls murder because he came to Christ.

And what if this Muslim only ever new lies about Christianity and was never taught the true gospel of Christ, do you still believe the atonement would not cover his sins?

It is mans pride that attempts to answer such questions and pretend as if we know the hearts and minds of other men. We have the Gospel, the accepted cannon of scripture and no man "prophet" or otherwise has the authority to go beyond what is written. If any soul of man has not accepted Christ, they are in a condition of the Judgment of God, now God will judge according to His righteousness and His justice, not mans sense of fairness or carnal logic. Again we have those who seek to condemn those God has justified, and attempt to save those who are not saved? What twisted and wicked condition that mans religion has produced in this world. There is no other Name under heaven or earth whereby a man may be saved, and those who reject Him have rejected mans only hope. If God in His mercy has a place of mercy for those who know not the gospel, it will because at some point after death they will bow to Christ Jesus. No one will be saved except they believe on Him, in this the scriptures are without any doubt.

So again your point, makes no biblical sense, nor is your attempt to form a salvation based upon ignorance of Christ any thing but a new heresy formed by those seeking to place mans carnal logic above the Word of God. How far will from truth are the hearts of such men?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christiansâ€. So let me ask you about what you believe in the atonement. Do you believe that Christ’s atonement covers the sins of a Muslim who calls for the death of Christians to his dying day?

Now how could the Blood of Christ cover the murder-sin of a muslim, unless that muslim turned to Christ by faith and accepted His Blood as the price for his sins? The Blood covered Pauls murder because he came to Christ.

And what if this Muslim only ever new lies about Christianity and was never taught the true gospel of Christ, do you still believe the atonement would not cover his sins?

It is man's pride that attempts to answer such questions and pretend as if we know the hearts and minds of other men.

No. It is the failure of one's religion to provide a satisfying answer to such questions that causes one to give a lame response that discourages questioning.

We have the Gospel, the accepted cannon of scripture and no man "prophet" or otherwise has the authority to go beyond what is written.

It sure is convenient that you have the Gospel. A child(Jewish or Muslim) who is indoctrinated by his/her parents to reject the Gospel will have a hard time accepting the Gospel. A child(Mormon) who is indoctrinated to believe in both the Book of Mormon and the Gospel will have a hard time separating the two and only throwing out the Book of Mormon.

If any soul of man has not accepted Christ, they are in a condition of the Judgment of God, now God will judge according to His righteousness and His justice, not man's sense of fairness or carnal logic.

Here, we have another attempt to shut down logic. I pity those who are so blinded by illogical nonsense.

Again we have those who seek to condemn those God has justified, and attempt to save those who are not saved?

Yes. People will often try to smooth things over in their mind in order to try to make themselves happy.

What twisted and wicked condition that man's religion has produced in this world.

Indeed.

 

[By Grace]

He specifically says people who have made a covenant with God.

This above is what I picked up on. It seems to say that JS meant that some people, ie. mormons could make a satisfactory blood atonement.

Thank you for clarifying

 

[proveallthings]

First of all, By Grace, the above quote is not directed at those you consider to be “Christiansâ€.

So now the tactic is to say, "Joe did not mean what he said when he said this: 'There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt.' "
That is really a sad thing when the words of your savior, JS cannot be defended,

You are confusing me here. You appear to be saying the words of Brigham Young are the words of Joseph Smith. It makes me wonder what exactly are you referring to. I am also confused as to what tactic you are trying to describe. I did not say anything about Joseph or Brigham not meaning what they said. Please explain.

and you wish to go off onto discussing the mormon doctrine of "blood atonement" by saying that it was to mormons he was speaking, and therefore to mormons only does that apply. This nay be the first time you used that with me, but on another site, when the ugly and hate-filled words of your leaders, past and present have spewed hatred towards Christians, their apologetic was "Those people were speaking to Mormons, so they are relevant to mormons only."

This is also confusing. Are you saying that other Mormons have also pointed out that statements from LDS leaders about blood atonement are only relevant to Mormons? Well I should hope so, because it is true. Can you show any evidence to the contrary? Also, I am not aware of any hate-filled words toward any person or persons, Christian or not, spoken or written by any LDS church leaders, past or present.

As to the issue of Muslims, I respectfully note that you are introducing a RED HERRING, which has no bearing on this OP. However if you want to discuss that issue of the religion of Islam on another thread please let me know when you begin it. That way we will not confuse things here on this thread,

If you read your opening post, you will discover that this thread is about a statement by Brigham Young referring to the atonement and how you interpret that statement as limiting the atonement and who it applies to. I was simply looking for context as to what you are comparing it to in your beliefs. How is that a red herring? Is there something in your beliefs on this subject that you feel unsure about that would cause you to so obviously dodge the question?

 

[proveallthings]

He specifically says people who have made a covenant with God.

This above is what I picked up on. It seems to say that JS meant that some people, ie. mormons could make a satisfactory blood atonement.

Thank you for clarifying

If you look at the context of the whole discourse and many other discourses of Brigham Young, it will become very clear that he is only referring to a limited number of possible Mormons living at that time who not only have made certain temple covenants, but had a better than average understanding of those covenants.

It is impossible to understand the meaning of this statement without many hours of research and study with an open heart and mind. What you are posting here about this statement indicates that you are way off the mark of what Brigham believed about the atonement of Christ.

 

[By Grace]

Lewis Caroll, pen name for Charles Dodson wrote this:


[FONT=&quot]Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

[/FONT]

It is impossible to understand the meaning of this statement without many hours of research and study with an open heart and mind.

What you posted in no less incomprehensible.

You are simply saying that it takes lots of "research and study..." in order to make his plain and simple words mean anything other than what the first reading of his words mean. To my way of thinking, that statement sounds like saying "only those with a secret decoder ring thingy can understand his words". So if you want to pursue that delusional line of thinking, go ahead. But keep in mind that I do not argue with delusions; they do not exist, so I do not bother.

 

[proveallthings]

It is impossible to understand the meaning of this statement without many hours of research and study with an open heart and mind.

What you posted in no less incomprehensible.

You are simply saying that it takes lots of "research and study..." in order to make his plain and simple words mean anything other than what the first reading of his words mean. To my way of thinking, that statement sounds like saying "only those with a secret decoder ring thingy can understand his words". So if you want to pursue that delusional line of thinking, go ahead. But keep in mind that I do not argue with delusions; they do not exist, so I do not bother.

The delusion is created when you take quotes out of context to make them seem to mean something quite different than the original intent. What I meant by the need to research and study was that in order to understand what is meant here, you must not only read the entire discourse, but several others along with LDS scripture and what modern leaders have said and are saying about who the atonement applies to.

After doing my own research, it has become very apparent that he is referring to people who do not repent. Or in other words, those who reject Christ's atonement. He uses words and phraseology that is different than we are used to today, especially outside the church. But that is all this is about, people who reject Christ.

Because there is no record of any Latter-day Saints seeking for their own blood being shed or that of others, it is obvious that when he refers to "their own blood", this teaching was understood by his listeners in that day as simply suffering in the flesh or here in mortality.

I hope this helps you understanding a little more.