Please God, Save Us from Ourselves !

[Jay T]

PLEASE GOD, SAVE US FROM OURSELVES !

We, Christians of today, are in great need of Biblical salvation.
The Bible verse: Revelation 3:15 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked".

The attitude of, "Once Saved, Always Saved" has invaded us, to the point of ignoring many Bible verses....as of no importance !
Jesus Christ said: Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

We, who so arrogantly claim to say, "I believe in Jesus Christ".....actually, ignore, what HE says to do !!!
Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"

Again, Jesus tells us that to [keep] the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17), is to show our love for HIM ("IF..you love me, keep my commandments, John 14:15), Yet, we take a Bible term, out of context of the whole Bible ( 'Under the Law' ) and make it sound, like to keep (obey) God's commandments is ...coming, 'Under the Law' ?

Have we totally misunderstood Romans 3:19 ?
Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".

Have we fulfilled the Bible prophecy which says....
Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter !"

Now, Romans 3:19 again.....with emphasis, on what that verse is, really saying.....
Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".

Are we Christians so ignorant that we cannot understand the simple fact that the commandment: "Thou shalt not steal".....means that if, we do not steal, that we come 'under the Law' (guilty) ? That we are guilty ('under the Law') for stealing , when we 'did not' steal anything ?


Are we guilty of turning the whole Gospel message around, from its original purpose and goal ?

 

[gingercat]

Jay, let's just hope someone is paying attention and takes heed of the seriousness of being His followers. We all know that debaters are not here to listen and learn.

 

[Imagican]

Amen guys

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Does there really need to be ANOTHER thread devoted to the topic of "Once Saved, Always Saved?" Is such a topic really a worthy "hill to die on?" The debate has been going on for MANY years and I seriously doubt it is going to be settled in this topic or in any other topic about it. The important thing to remember is that one must have a belief in Jesus Christ to be saved. Whether they can lose that salvation or not really does not matter if one focuses on continuing and growing in their faith in God.

The minute this topic gets out of hand or becomes a place of personal insult it is locked!

 

[JM]

Does God the Father always hear the prayers of God the Son?

 

[Bubba]

JM,
Yes, John 17 right?
Bubba (formerly Beza)

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Does there really need to be ANOTHER thread devoted to the topic of "Once Saved, Always Saved?" Is such a topic really a worthy "hill to die on?" The debate has been going on for MANY years and I seriously doubt it is going to be settled in this topic or in any other topic about it

I find the fact that so central and crucial a doctrine can be an issue of great division in the church strong evidence that either...

a) The bible is contradictory or truly non-understandable.

b) Christians are not possessed of an common Spirit which "leads them into all truth", since they disagree on so many doctrines, even fundamental ones like this.

Just thought I'd share that :angel:

 

[Klee shay]

Jesus also cautioned the Apostles not to deny the children from His presence. All scriputure has context throughout the entire bible. I myself read the section on Revelations quoted, and it did speak to me in the end.

Not at first mind you. At first I spun into a whirlwind of panic, thinking Jesus was going to spew me out of His mouth. And what for - because I doubted His relevance in my life to-date because of the written word? In effect the outcome was I denied myself from the Spirit of Jesus which was to comfort me in the end. In the end I returned to my basic understanding of Jesus and asked Him what the written word meant.

I was drawn to ponder the meaning of another part in the same section of Revelations, which is repeated several times..."He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." REVELATIONS 3:22

The clue Jesus gives us is, "He that hath an ear". In other words, those with the ability to humble themselves to "the Spirit" and hear what it says beyond their own understanding will see what it is saying to the churches.

Those who apply their knowledge (doctrine) with their individual ears without consulting the Spirit from whence the message comes from, will fall into false understanding of the written word and lead others into a false understanding also.

The only way a person is going to apply the meaning of Revelations to their life is by seeking it with the guidance of the Spirit. To listen to the Apostles alone, without coming to Jesus is why He said not to deny the children. We are the children growing in our understanding and we are to come to Jesus whether the Apostles think we are troublesome or not.

It is not Jay T's understanding of the written word, or even MY understanding of the written word that will make any difference without coming to Jesus FIRST!

Why should the written word have more power than the living word? LISTEN TO WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH UNTO THE CHURCHES.

Is the Spirit the written word in the bible or the relationship we have with God? The Spirit lines up with what is written in the bible but to what effect if we deny ourselves from the presence of Jesus in order to understand it?

I understood in the end the true meaning of..."As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" REVELATIONS 3:19.

This applies to all of us. It applied to the Apostles which went to deny the children as much as it applies to the children themselves today. It is the love which rebukes us not the law, so seek the love of Jesus in order to understand the law.

I encourage others to read Revelations despite it's sometimes confronting messages. The hot and cold remark can apply to anyone in their faith, it is not about OSAS specifically (alone). All of Revelations applies to everyone.

"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left they first love." REVELATIONS 2:4 This can mean anyone who leaves God, and not just the Jews' Torah. Our first love should be God and yet who is not guilty of placing something before Him?

If people really want to understand what Revelations is saying, use the ears beyond your own understanding. If Jesus loves all of us then he is rebuking all of us - there is no denominational favouritism.

 

[JM]

JM,
Yes, John 17 right?
Bubba (formerly Beza)

I gotta keep that mind, I keep forgetting you were Beza...

If the Son prays to the Father, the saved MUST remain saved forever because of the prayers of the Son.

If the Son's prayers are NOT heard, then you can lose your salvation, we have descention in the Godhead and God the Son loses His rights as a successful mediator for His will is subjected to the will of His Father...without unity.

Peace,

jm

 

[Bubba]

JM,
Yes, it was the whole sacralist concept that made me change my thoughts about Theodur Beza. Far as I know, Bubba is neutral when it comes to church history and the mistakes of the fathers.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 3:37


In Christ, Bubba

 

[Jay T]

Does there really need to be ANOTHER thread devoted to the topic of "Once Saved, Always Saved?"

YES !
This the doctrine that I believe will destroy more, in the Christian world than any other doctrine that exists today.

satan has used it to GREAT success throughout the centuries from Adam & Eve down, to our own time of the present day.

I believe it to be the 'Father' of all deceptions.

 

[Klee shay]

This the doctrine that I believe will destroy more, in the Christian world than any other doctrine that exists today.

Are you saying that believing in the life of Christ leads to damnation?

satan has used it to GREAT success throughout the centuries from Adam & Eve down, to our own time of the present day.

Satan uses all religions as His cloak, and He enjoys striking fear into those who believe they are doing the right thing by following God - no matter what religion they follow.

If you want to help people get closer to God, you should share more about God's Living Word than you do the threats of damnation. People who follow OSAS generally follow Jesus...when you talk about their damanation because they follow Jesus...you're going to come across as a worker of deception yourself.

I believe it to be the 'Father' of all deceptions.

The Father of all deceptions is the enemy, and he likes us pointing at other Christians so God's love can continue being distorted.

Taking a passage out of Revelations which is meant to be interpreted by the Spirit, and placing your judgements upon it specifically for the OSAS community's condemnation, is not uplifting the Kingdom of God at all.

How is a person who believes in the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, being lukewarm?

If the interpretation of OSAS doctrine needs rebuke, then by all means - rebuke it for the edification of the Lord's Body; but don't claim to know that you personally have the right religion for everyone else to follow - lest you be brought into rebuke as well.

This mentality that we can hack out the 'truth' by savaging each other with scripture, is not the Body Jesus resides over. To even have faith in God is a great achievement that should be counted as righteousness. Specific actions can then be reviewed and rebuked - but only in love; not to destroy the faith of others.
[/quote]

 

[gingercat]

Specific actions can then be reviewed and rebuked - but only in love; not to destroy the faith of others.

[/quote]

Are you saying that Jay's protest is not conveyed in love? Do you think his message is destroying the faith of others?

 

[Klee shay]

Are you saying that Jay's protest is not conveyed in love?

That is for JayT to answer...I cannot judge the state of another's heart. All I can say is that when people in general address the religion of others, love seems to be the last message which comes across.

This goes for whether OSAS, Catholicism, Baptist, Apostolic, or whatever denomination is at the heart of a particular discussion.

Do you think his message is destroying the faith of others?

The problem with debating any denomination, is the fact it generally attacks the faith of others. The faith of other's shouldn't even be in question. When someone professes to follow God, they genuinely believe they are trying to follow God to the best of their ability - even if they can get some of the interpretation wrong.

To my understanding OSAS is a belief that Jesus keeps His promises - that the cross was enough to save man so that man doesn't have to keep saving himself...so everything is focused on what Jesus achieved with the love of His Father. Therefore to relate OSAS alone to the scripture in Revelations which says Jesus will spew whose heart is lukewarm out of His mouth, is an attack on those who most believe in what Jesus achieved on the cross.

If anything in the OSAS doctrine needs addressing it's the fact one shouldn't neglect the responsibility Jesus gave mankind to do in His absence. Which is returning to the Father for guidance, seeking Him with everything we do and walking in the light as Jesus demonstrated. Many people who believe in OSAS doctrine do this as a natural reaction to following the grace of Jesus. Those who are taught OSAS as a get out of jail free card however, will use it to comfort their disingenuine heart.

In attacking OSAS in general however, it attacks the people who genuinely follow all the Lord's teachings in order to get at the lazy one's who want an easy religion. Rebuke the lazy one's but don't include all OSAS believers into the "Father of all deceptions" camp.

 

[Sothenes]

We, who so arrogantly claim to say, "I believe in Jesus Christ".....actually, ignore, what HE says to do !!!
Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"-Romans 4:6

Some of them (Romans 4:6) are those who do not the things which Jesus says or else God wouldn't have to take righteousness from his bank account and put it towards our spiritual bank account.

 

[gingercat]

That is for JayT to answer...I cannot judge the state of another's heart. All I can say is that when people in general address the religion of others, love seems to be the last message which comes across.

[/quore]

Just because one is expressing their conviction does not mean they are unloving or attacking.

 

[Klee shay]

Just because one is expressing their conviction does not mean they are unloving or attacking.

What do you think will be more important in the Kingdom of God - individual convictions or unity in the Body of Christ?

I have not labelled JayT as loving or unloving, but merely stated the dangers of such discussions when scripture is used to judge the faith of others. No-one knows who that passage in Revelations directly relates to but the insinuation is that it's specifically for those who believe in OSAS.

Anyone's heart can be lukewarm, no matter what doctrine they follow. :wink:

 

[gingercat]

I have not labelled JayT as loving or unloving, but merely stated the dangers of such discussions when scripture is used to judge the faith of others. No-one knows who that passage in Revelations directly relates to but the insinuation is that it's specifically for those who believe in OSAS.

You don't realize how your comments sound "holyer than thou". Expressing ones' conviction will sound unloving to people who don't agree with them.

We should stop this kind of accusations or criticisms. Jesus is giving everyone privileges to speak for Him.

 

[Sothenes]

You don't realize how your comments sound "holyer than thou". Expressing ones' conviction will sound unloving to people who don't agree with them.

We should stop this kind of accusations or criticisms. Jesus is giving everyone privileges to speak for Him.

Then if we go that route, shouldn't we get rid of the people who aren't Christian and don't believe in the Trinity because of their accusations? It is just a question and not an accusation about anyone.

 

[gingercat]

It is just a question and not an accusation about anyone.

Accusations are in the eyes of beholders.