Please provide NT scripture for:

[Disciple88]

That's a nice cop out if I ever saw one. The fact of the matter is that you couldn't provide scripture to justify any of the above no matter how I worded it. So your comments are meaningless.

And tradition over Christ's principles means, for example, calling the pope "our Holy Father" simply because you've always called him that even though it contradicts Christ's words. So yes, the catholic church does teach such a thing. ;-)

My mind is made up specifically because none of the above can be justified by scripture. The Word of God is what I go by, not the word of Your Holy Father.

It wasn't a cop out.

But thanks for clarifying.

1. venial sins vs. mortal sins.
venial sins="small" sins
mortal sins="deadly" sins
(in sum, there is a more technical definition than that)
1 John 5:16-17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."


2. sinless of Mary/perpetual virginity of Mary
There is already another thread on Mary's sinlessness, you can see my response there... for the most part, see Luke 1:28.

As to Mary's virginity, Mary's response to the Angel in Luke 1:34 "how can this be…" revealed a disposition (a vow, if you will) of perpetual virginity. Why? Naturally, if Mary had intended on having relations with Joseph the announcement that she should become pregnant would not be a surprise. As God has only one first born Son, so too does Mary. It is a reverencing of God becoming man, not a slam on sexuality.
Some objections to this last aspect include Matthew 1:18 and 1:25 ("before they came together" & "knew her not until…"). Both simply establish what has not yet taken place regardless of what takes place after. 2 Samuel 6:23 says that Michol had no children until the day of her death…does this imply she had children after she died?! Of course not. Next, usually the "brethren of the Lord" are brought up (Mark 6:3). The Greek word for "brother" ("adelphos") can also mean cousin, near relative, or even kinsmenâ€â€it is not exclusive to blood brotherâ€â€the Old Testament Hebrew "ah" has the same meaning and was often used between men who could not be literal blood brothers (ex. Genesis 13:8, and 12:5, among others). The use of "brother" in the Scriptures and in the Church has always tended to have a universal context, rather than a blood relationship. Western culture has tended to make the term exclusive (though, we still have fraternities ("frater"="brother" in Latin)). For the most part, the "brethren of the Lord" is not seen as something "disproving" Mary's virginity in most other parts of the world, it has become an issue only in the West (i.e., United States and other English speaking countries).

3. "announcing fasting by placing ashes on our foreheads"
Matthew 6:17 "But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face"








11. to "pray" to people.
Because those in Heaven are a part of the Body of Christ (which is ONE). You will not object to my requesting that you pray for me to God, asking a Saint in Heaven to pray for me, is no different because they are still part of the Body of Christ (/the Church). I am going to try and explain this step-by-step... hopefully that will help.

Romans 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (38 ) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Bottom line? NOTHING can separate us from Christ.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Bottom line? We are called to intercede and pray for all ("unceasingly" 1 Thessalonians 5:17).

Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Thus, believers (all believers) that make up the Church are the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."

Thus, the Church is ONE. That is, as a Church, its members are not separated whether on earth or in Heaven. There is ONE Body (/church), not two.

1 Corinthians 12:25-27 "That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. (26) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. (27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

Ok, there is too much to talk about so I am going to try to get to all of these eventually.

The first one I'm going to start with is the Sinless Mary. Paul wrote "for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (Rom. 3:23)

That's pretty plain and simple. No where in the bible does it say mary is an exception. Besides, everything you posted never said anything or explained how mary is sinless.

Forehead Ash:
First, I want to point out what verse 16 says, "For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting". By wiping ash on your forehead, you are making an outward statement to others saying that you are fasting. Secondly, you have to remember Christ is jewish and he was in Jewish cities. You have to remember their tradition and the OT. Eveyrtime someone in the OT was doing something for, in reginition, or in front of God, like say, Marriage, they fasted and annointed their heads with OIL. That is part of the jewish faith. If this is not clear to you still, I will shed more light on it if you would like.

Pray to:
Ok, first the reason for prayer is to talk to the Father, not to saints. Secondly, no where in the bible does it say that you can pray "to" saints in heaven unless you corrupt scripture. Secondly, like I said, we pray to Abba God, not to the hagios in heaven.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[CatholicXian]

Nice "cop out", Heidi. ;-)

You said nothing of the statues you are so concerned about.

You apparently didn't understand a thing I said. So I suggest that you read the bible for yourself since you obviously know so little about it. Start with Galations, then Colossians, then Romans. And then after you have read it and understood it, only then will you be qualified to discuss it.

Heidi, I have read Galatians, Colossians, and Romans several times. I was asking about the OT according to your view, because you said before that the OT does "not apply" and "only the Jews are still subject to those laws". Which, naturally, I was then curious why you would be concerned with one of the Commandments, if, as you said before they are only applicable to the Jews? You seem to be flip-flopping on your opinion of the OT.

It appears that you love the crosses more than Jesus himself or you would obey him and not call your religious leaders "Father."

I worship the living God, not pieces of wood. As Habbakuk said; "Woe to the person who says; 'wood, come to life!" So the bible is opposed to carved things as you will find out once you read it.

I do not worship wood, Heidi, that much should be obvious.

I demonstrated to you several times in the NT where leaders are called "fathers" (see Acts 7:2 and Acts 22:1... both Stephen and Paul call the leaders present "fathers"). St. Paul himself NUMEROUS times in his epistles refers to himself as a "father" of those who are not his biological children... Timothy, the Christian community at Corinth, etc. What about Paul? Did he not love God either?

The Bible is not opposed to carved things... look at the Ark of the Covenant, which God Himself demanded built (with very detailed specifications regarding it's carvings and statues)

 

[CatholicXian]

Ok, there is too much to talk about so I am going to try to get to all of these eventually.

The first one I'm going to start with is the Sinless Mary. Paul wrote "for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (Rom. 3:23)

That's pretty plain and simple. No where in the bible does it say mary is an exception. Besides, everything you posted never said anything or explained how mary is sinless.

I didn't say much, because there is another thread in which Heidi and I have discussed the sinlessness of Mary at greater length...

Forehead Ash:
First, I want to point out what verse 16 says, "For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting". By wiping ash on your forehead, you are making an outward statement to others saying that you are fasting. Secondly, you have to remember Christ is jewish and he was in Jewish cities. You have to remember their tradition and the OT. Eveyrtime someone in the OT was doing something for, in reginition, or in front of God, like say, Marriage, they fasted and annointed their heads with OIL. That is part of the jewish faith. If this is not clear to you still, I will shed more light on it if you would like.

Many members of my family are Jewish (by heritage and by faith), so I've got the skinny on Judaism... but thanks!

Catholics do anoint with oil as well (consider the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and the annointing of the sick). The reason we annoint with ashes on Ash Wednesday is as a sign of repentance... similar to those in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 9:4 "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

There is a lot more symbolism to Ash Wednesday than can be expounded upon in such a small space. Needlesstosay, however, placing/annointing one's head with a mark (a "tau".. check the Hebrew) is a Scriptural practice. Catholics use this OT Scriptural imagery of the "tau" as a sign of repentence and affix it to the start of the liturgical season of penance (Lent) whereby we attempt to enter more deeply into the mysteries of the life of Christ in order to prepare more fully for His saving Sacrifice on the Cross.

Pray to:
Ok, first the reason for prayer is to talk to the Father, not to saints. Secondly, no where in the bible does it say that you can pray "to" saints in heaven unless you corrupt scripture. Secondly, like I said, we pray to Abba God, not to the hagios in heaven.

We use "prayer" in a different sense when we refer to the Saints, as Catholics. We pray "to" the Saints, in the sense that we ask their prayers for us to God. We pray to the Holy Trinity is the sense that we adore and worship Him who is God.

How are we connected to the saints in Heaven in order to be able to ask their prayers? Christ. There is ONE Church (/the Body of Christ). Not two. We are united to those in Heaven through Christ Jesus.

 

[Heidi]

Nice "cop out", Heidi. ;-)

You said nothing of the statues you are so concerned about.

You apparently didn't understand a thing I said. So I suggest that you read the bible for yourself since you obviously know so little about it. Start with Galations, then Colossians, then Romans. And then after you have read it and understood it, only then will you be qualified to discuss it.

Heidi, I have read Galatians, Colossians, and Romans several times. I was asking about the OT according to your view, because you said before that the OT does "not apply" and "only the Jews are still subject to those laws". Which, naturally, I was then curious why you would be concerned with one of the Commandments, if, as you said before they are only applicable to the Jews? You seem to be flip-flopping on your opinion of the OT.

It appears that you love the crosses more than Jesus himself or you would obey him and not call your religious leaders "Father."

I worship the living God, not pieces of wood. As Habbakuk said; "Woe to the person who says; 'wood, come to life!" So the bible is opposed to carved things as you will find out once you read it.

I do not worship wood, Heidi, that much should be obvious.

I demonstrated to you several times in the NT where leaders are called "fathers" (see Acts 7:2 and Acts 22:1... both Stephen and Paul call the leaders present "fathers"). St. Paul himself NUMEROUS times in his epistles refers to himself as a "father" of those who are not his biological children... Timothy, the Christian community at Corinth, etc. What about Paul? Did he not love God either?

The Bible is not opposed to carved things... look at the Ark of the Covenant, which God Himself demanded built (with very detailed specifications regarding it's carvings and statues)

If you even asked me that question, catholicxian, then you have not understood Galatians, Colossians or Romans, particularly Romans 13 which I quoted. So I suggest you read those chapters again.

What? Where did Paul ever ask them to call him father? When he says "dear children", he's talking about the children of God! He's also over them in the Lord which means he has more spiritual widsom than they do.

You are attempting to disagree with Jesus again when he told us not to call anyone father. And if you think that Paul was disagreeing with Jesus then you have misinterpreted his words.

Once again, scripture does not lie as you apparently think it does. So if you don't understand something, then instead of changing the bible to fit your interpretation, you need to change your interpretation to fit the bible!

Yet, you never disgaree with the pope! You always change the bible to fit his words! If you don't think the pope is God, cayholicxian, then why do you never see anything the pope says as infallibe, yet you constantly try to look for infallibility in scripture? :o You have just shown, by trying to interpret Paul's words as disagreeing with Christ's, that your loyalty is to the pope, not to God's word.

Also, catholic, do you understand what Paul means when he talks about the OT as a shadow? If so, then you will understand what the "carved" things in the OT are.

So now, it's time for you to explain what Jesus means in Matthew 23:5-13 and what Paul means in Colossians 2:13-15, and what Hebrews chapter 8 means instead of asking others to interpret them for you.

 

[CatholicXian]

If you even asked me that question, catholicxian, then you have not understood Galatians, Colossians or Romans, particularly Romans 13 which I quoted. So I suggest you read those chapters again.

Heidi, I'm only ASKING because you're flip-flopping on the issue. At one point you claim the OT is only applicable to the Jews, and the next you're claiming there are still aspects of it that we must fulfill through our love of Christ. Either parts of the OT are applicable to Christians as well, or it's not at all. Which is it?

What? Where did Paul ever ask them to call him father? When he says "dear children", he's talking about the children of God! He's also over them in the Lord which means he has more spiritual widsom than they do.

Hmm... so it's okay to see Paul as father insofar as he has more spiritual wisdom than the children of God that he is pastoring...

This is precisely why we call priests "father"--and this is the sense in which priests are "father" in the Catholic Church, Heidi. I am a daughter of God, and the pastor of my parish has more spiritual wisdom than I do, so I call him father-- because he became my father through the sharing of the Gospel (cf. 1 Cor 4:15).

You are attempting to disagree with Jesus again when he told us not to call anyone father. And if you think that Paul was disagreeing with Jesus then you have misinterpreted his words.

I don't disagree at all with Scripture, or Paul! I understand very much what Jesus meant when he said not to call anyone 'father'. He was speaking in hyperbole-- illustrating that no man can take the place of God in Heaven.

It seems though, as though you misunderstand the Catholic practice. Your hatred for the Church has blinded you so that you do not see the connection, which you find in Paul's referring to himself (and others, like the leaders.. Acts 22:1) as "father". It is is THAT sense that Catholic priests are "father".

Once again, scripture does not lie as you apparently think it does. So if you don't understand something, then instead of changing the bible to fit your interpretation, you need to change your interpretation to fit the bible!

I have said, nor intimated no such thing regarding the Sacred Scriptures.

We may disagree on interpretation of certain biblical passages, Heidi, but you cannot thus turn around and claim that I would dare think Scripture even could lie. If you want to discuss interpretation, then let's discuss interpretation. We'll both pray for the guidance and convinction of the Holy Spirit (as I've done many times when reading through passages of Sacred Scripture).

Yet, you never disgaree with the pope! You always change the bible to fit his words! If you don't think the pope is God, cayholicxian, then why do you never see anything the pope says as infallibe, yet you constantly try to look for infallibility in scripture? :o You have just shown, by trying to interpret Paul's words as disagreeing with Christ's, that your loyalty is to the pope, not to God's word.

I was not interpreting Paul's words as disagreeing with Christ. I am showing how my interpretation of Christ's words as a hyperbole fit better than your strict literalist interpretation that makes Paul out to be sinning by calling himself and other leaders "father".

Who says I don't look for infallibility in Scripture? The inerrancy of the Sacred Scriptures are the basis for my referring to them and using them in support of doctrine.

Also, catholic, do you understand what Paul means when he talks about the OT as a shadow? If so, then you will understand what the "carved" things in the OT are.

Do you like pancakes, Heidi?

The OT was a shadow of things to come and be revealed in the NT, in the person of Jesus Christ. But shadows are not false. Yes, Christ fulfilled all 613 precepts of the Torah, and the dietary food laws (he made all things clean (cf. Mark 7:9, 1 Tim 4:4-5)). But the 10 Commandments are just as applicable to us, as Christians today, as they were to the Jews.

So now, it's time for you to explain what Jesus means in Matthew 23:5-13 and what Paul means in Colossians 2:13-15, and what Hebrews chapter 8 means instead of asking others to interpret them for you.

I've not asked anyone to interpret anything for me.

I have explained the meaning of the passage from Matthew above. Jesus was speaking a hyperbole against the pharisees and those who would exalt themselves over God. We can see that Jesus was not speaking literally, by the practice of the early Church, as demonstrated by St. Paul throughout Scripture.

Colossians is regarding the saving Sacrifice of Christ by which our sins are expiated on the Cross, and that Christ has triumphed over all things, even death.

Hebrews talks about Jesus as the high priest. It was His Sacrifice on the Cross that enacted the New Covenant (and everlasting covenant), with Him as our mediator. There will be no more Covenants, because all has been perfected in Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

Disciple88

The first one I'm going to start with is the Sinless Mary. Paul wrote "for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (Rom. 3:23). That's pretty plain and simple. No where in the bible does it say mary is an exception. Besides, everything you posted never said anything or explained how mary is sinless.

All means a certain group in scripture. It does not always mean there are no exceptions. I would hope you would agree that Jesus is an exception. he was fully man. Do you honestly think a new born baby has sinned. So there are obvious allowed exceptions. Do you think that every Jew will be saved? Paul does say ""all Israel will be saved," (Romans 11:26), ". There are many other examples of this. You say that nowhere in the Bible does it say mary would be sinless. Well not explicitly. But implicitly it does. Luke parrallels Mary (Luke 1, the visitatin of Elizabeth) with the Ark of the Covenant (2 Sam 6). The ark was exceedingly pure. This has implications on Mary as well who was created as a vessel for the son of God, just as the Ark was said to be the God-bearer.
Of course you will tell me my interpretation is wrong. By what authority is yours better?

Forehead Ash:
First, I want to point out what verse 16 says, "For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting". By wiping ash on your forehead, you are making an outward statement to others saying that you are fasting.

Actually, no that is not what the ashes are about. It is not a pronouncement that we are fasting. It is simply a reminder of our mortality in this life. The words are said "remember man that thou art dust and to dust thou shall returen". Hope your okay with those words. You took Heidi's words as fact and made your own errors in their regard.

Secondly, you have to remember Christ is jewish and he was in Jewish cities. You have to remember their tradition and the OT. Eveyrtime someone in the OT was doing something for, in reginition, or in front of God, like say, Marriage, they fasted and annointed their heads with OIL. That is part of the jewish faith. If this is not clear to you still, I will shed more light on it if you would like.

It is clear to us. Apparently our practices are not clear to you and so you criticize what you don't understand.

Pray to:
Ok, first the reason for prayer is to talk to the Father, not to saints. Secondly, no where in the bible does it say that you can pray "to" saints in heaven unless you corrupt scripture. Secondly, like I said, we pray to Abba God, not to the hagios in heaven.

Our prayers to the saints are simply to ask them to pray to the father for us. Certainly you don't have a problem with asking others to interceed for you. To pray for you. It's kinda biblical. We know they live because Jesus himself told us. Paul tells us that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God. So we know that they are not separated from Christ, are members of the body of Christ, and therefore have access to him.

Blessings

 

[Heidi]

Disciple88

The first one I'm going to start with is the Sinless Mary. Paul wrote "for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". (Rom. 3:23). That's pretty plain and simple. No where in the bible does it say mary is an exception. Besides, everything you posted never said anything or explained how mary is sinless.

All means a certain group in scripture. It does not always mean there are no exceptions. I would hope you would agree that Jesus is an exception. he was fully man. Do you honestly think a new born baby has sinned. So there are obvious allowed exceptions. Do you think that every Jew will be saved? Paul does say ""all Israel will be saved," (Romans 11:26), ". There are many other examples of this. You say that nowhere in the Bible does it say mary would be sinless. Well not explicitly. But implicitly it does. Luke parrallels Mary (Luke 1, the visitatin of Elizabeth) with the Ark of the Covenant (2 Sam 6). The ark was exceedingly pure. This has implications on Mary as well who was created as a vessel for the son of God, just as the Ark was said to be the God-bearer.
Of course you will tell me my interpretation is wrong. By what authority is yours better?

[quote:3e1b6]
Forehead Ash:
First, I want to point out what verse 16 says, "For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting". By wiping ash on your forehead, you are making an outward statement to others saying that you are fasting.

Actually, no that is not what the ashes are about. It is not a pronouncement that we are fasting. It is simply a reminder of our mortality in this life. The words are said "remember man that thou art dust and to dust thou shall returen". Hope your okay with those words. You took Heidi's words as fact and made your own errors in their regard.

Secondly, you have to remember Christ is jewish and he was in Jewish cities. You have to remember their tradition and the OT. Eveyrtime someone in the OT was doing something for, in reginition, or in front of God, like say, Marriage, they fasted and annointed their heads with OIL. That is part of the jewish faith. If this is not clear to you still, I will shed more light on it if you would like.

It is clear to us. Apparently our practices are not clear to you and so you criticize what you don't understand.

Pray to:
Ok, first the reason for prayer is to talk to the Father, not to saints. Secondly, no where in the bible does it say that you can pray "to" saints in heaven unless you corrupt scripture. Secondly, like I said, we pray to Abba God, not to the hagios in heaven.

Our prayers to the saints are simply to ask them to pray to the father for us. Certainly you don't have a problem with asking others to interceed for you. To pray for you. It's kinda biblical. We know they live because Jesus himself told us. Paul tells us that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God. So we know that they are not separated from Christ, are members of the body of Christ, and therefore have access to him.

Blessings[/quote:3e1b6]

So where does the bible say that Mary was born without a sinless nature like the rest of us? "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Where does the bible say; "All but Mary have sinned?" :o Therefore, yours is a made-up gospel.

The bible says that Jesus is the only exception and he is not included because he was the Son of God. And no one else can make the claim of being as perfect as Jesus was. So since you disagree with that, then it is indeed Mary and Jesus whom you worship, is it not? Otherwise, why would you say that Mary was as sinless as Jesus? It's preposterous and unscriptural.

So why do you need ashes as a reminder of your mortality? :o Do you not think most people know that without ashes? Or didn'tyou know that before you put ashes on your forehead? :o And if ashes is indeed only a reminder of our martality, then why do the catholics only do it during lent when they are fasting and giving sacrficing to God? :o So your argument is contradictory.

You lied again. You said that you asked them to pray for you. So how are your prayers not addressed to the saints? :o Do you not pray to God when you ask him for something? :o

Nothing can separate those in Christ from the love of God. But as jesus told us there will be many false prophets and teachers who are not in Christ. Paul said; "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show who is approved by God." And how do we know? Again, as Paul says, "If anyone preaches a different gospel than the one you received, let him be eternally condemned.!" It's very simple. Al you have to do is believe it.

 

[thessalonian]

If I say green you will say blue and twist everything I say Heidi. God bless you dear.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

(edited due to personal idiocy)

 

[CatholicXian]

Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.

If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.




Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 25:18-20 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.

If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.




Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 25:18-20 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.

I'm sure the Israelites didn't think they carved any graven images either. There is actually a picture of Pope John Paul, bowing down and kissing a statue of mary. Why did he do this? :o Does that not show reverence? :o

 

[CatholicXian]

Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.

If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.




Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 25:18-20 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.

I'm sure the Israelites didn't think they carved any graven images either. There is actually a picture of Pope John Paul, bowing down and kissing a statue of mary. Why did he do this? :o Does that not show reverence? :o

What's wrong with reverence, Heidi? Are not we commanded to show respect for one another (and "greet one another with a holy kiss")? Are those living in Japanese culture worshipping each other as God by bowing to each other as a sign of greeting? Are husbands and wives committing idolatry by kissing one another?

Bowing and kissing are signs of RESPECT/honor, Heidi. You are making one heck of a JUDGMENTAL leap by claiming Catholics are actually worshipping statues by showing gestures of respect towards the people/images they represent.

You are the only one making them idols, Heidi, not the Catholic Church.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.

If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.




Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 25:18-20 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.

I'm sure the Israelites didn't think they carved any graven images either. There is actually a picture of Pope John Paul, bowing down and kissing a statue of mary. Why did he do this? :o Does that not show reverence? :o

What's wrong with reverence, Heidi? Are not we commanded to show respect for one another (and "greet one another with a holy kiss")? Are those living in Japanese culture worshipping each other as God by bowing to each other as a sign of greeting? Are husbands and wives committing idolatry by kissing one another?

Bowing and kissing are signs of RESPECT/honor, Heidi. You are making one heck of a JUDGMENTAL leap by claiming Catholics are actually worshipping statues by showing gestures of respect towards the people/images they represent.

You are the only one making them idols, Heidi, not the Catholic Church.

:o That kind of reverence is only to be reserved for God, catholicxian, which is precisely why the bible tells us not to erect for ourselves as Romans 1: 23 says, "made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." It's right there in print. But since you disregard it anyway, there is no point in quoting scripture for you any more.

And by the way, God gets the credit for the work that Mary did, not she herself. And until you understand that, you willalways praise human beings instead of God.

 

[stray bullet]

What about making golden cherubim?

What about making images of a snake on a staff and having it heal you?

Idolatry or Moses?

Idolatry and graven images are when you worship and expect miracles from an object by its own merit, treating it as a deity. Making golden angels and getting healed from objects is okay, worshipping golden calves is not.

 

[CatholicXian]

[quote="CatholicXian":a6147]Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.

If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.




Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 25:18-20 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.

I'm sure the Israelites didn't think they carved any graven images either. There is actually a picture of Pope John Paul, bowing down and kissing a statue of mary. Why did he do this? :o Does that not show reverence? :o

What's wrong with reverence, Heidi? Are not we commanded to show respect for one another (and "greet one another with a holy kiss")? Are those living in Japanese culture worshipping each other as God by bowing to each other as a sign of greeting? Are husbands and wives committing idolatry by kissing one another?

Bowing and kissing are signs of RESPECT/honor, Heidi. You are making one heck of a JUDGMENTAL leap by claiming Catholics are actually worshipping statues by showing gestures of respect towards the people/images they represent.

You are the only one making them idols, Heidi, not the Catholic Church.

:o That kind of reverence is only to be reserved for God, catholicxian, which is precisely why the bible tells us not to erect for ourselves as Romans 1: 23 says, "made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." It's right there in print. But since you disregard it anyway, there is no point in quoting scripture for you any more.

And by the way, God gets the credit for the work that Mary did, not she herself. And until you understand that, you willalways praise human beings instead of God.[/quote:a6147]
Again, you evade any direct answer and only attempt to belittle my faith and understanding of God and Sacred Scripture... if you don't want to actually discuss things (but only rant and rave about how you believe Catholics are hellbound idolatrous people) then why in the world are you even posting on the message board (aka DISCUSSION board)?

Are you married, Heidi? Do you kiss your husband? Are you committing idolatry? What about kissing your parents... are you committing idolatry then too? Was Paul encouraging the Christian communities to engage in idolatrous pratices by exhorting them to greet one another with a holy kiss (cf. Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, etc.)?

What about all those times Paul tells Christians to imitate himself? Is Paul being blasphemous then, Heidi?

1 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore I beseech you, be imitators of me." (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:1)

Philippians 3:17 Brothers, be imitators together of me, and mark those who walk this way, for you have us for a pattern.

(see also 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9, 1 Thessalonians 1:6, and 1 Thess 2:14)

 

[Heidi]

[quote="Heidi":ee2d0][quote="CatholicXian":ee2d0]Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.

I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.

And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.

If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.




Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 25:18-20 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.

I'm sure the Israelites didn't think they carved any graven images either. There is actually a picture of Pope John Paul, bowing down and kissing a statue of mary. Why did he do this? :o Does that not show reverence? :o

What's wrong with reverence, Heidi? Are not we commanded to show respect for one another (and "greet one another with a holy kiss")? Are those living in Japanese culture worshipping each other as God by bowing to each other as a sign of greeting? Are husbands and wives committing idolatry by kissing one another?

Bowing and kissing are signs of RESPECT/honor, Heidi. You are making one heck of a JUDGMENTAL leap by claiming Catholics are actually worshipping statues by showing gestures of respect towards the people/images they represent.

You are the only one making them idols, Heidi, not the Catholic Church.

:o That kind of reverence is only to be reserved for God, catholicxian, which is precisely why the bible tells us not to erect for ourselves as Romans 1: 23 says, "made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." It's right there in print. But since you disregard it anyway, there is no point in quoting scripture for you any more.

And by the way, God gets the credit for the work that Mary did, not she herself. And until you understand that, you willalways praise human beings instead of God.[/quote:ee2d0]
Again, you evade any direct answer and only attempt to belittle my faith and understanding of God and Sacred Scripture... if you don't want to actually discuss things (but only rant and rave about how you believe Catholics are hellbound idolatrous people) then why in the world are you even posting on the message board (aka DISCUSSION board)?

Are you married, Heidi? Do you kiss your husband? Are you committing idolatry? What about kissing your parents... are you committing idolatry then too? Was Paul encouraging the Christian communities to engage in idolatrous pratices by exhorting them to greet one another with a holy kiss (cf. Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, etc.)?

What about all those times Paul tells Christians to imitate himself? Is Paul being blasphemous then, Heidi?

1 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore I beseech you, be imitators of me." (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:1)

Philippians 3:17 Brothers, be imitators together of me, and mark those who walk this way, for you have us for a pattern.

(see also 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9, 1 Thessalonians 1:6, and 1 Thess 2:14)[/quote:ee2d0]


Why are you mad at me? :o Those are Paul's words, not mine. I have rarely heard so many catholics at one time persist in disagreeing with the bible all to defend the pope. You're worshiping the wrong God. There is no excuse for someone who calls herself/himself to blatantly disagree with the word of God and take sides with a fallible human being like the pope. If you're angry at God's Word, then talk to God about it, not me. I shouldn't have to defend the bible to a Christian!

 

[Free]

She made some good points with Scripture Heidi that maybe you should respond to.

 

[Heidi]

She made some good points with Scripture Heidi that maybe you should respond to.

Imitating Paul is not erecting statues to him! Where did he ever tells us to do that? Paul is talking about Christ like behavior, not erecting statues to people. It isn't even in the same ballpark! But Paul does tell us not to erect statues or images in the form of mortal men, reptiles, and animals. That is very clear. What do you think that means, catholicxian? :o Or do you just plain think Paul is wrong and you are right? Which is it?

 

[Heidi]

I have just one more question for you, catholicxian. If God did not want us to erect statues of people or any monuments of people, how do you think the authors of the bible would convey that? :o