Heidi said:
CatholicXian said:
Heidi said:
CatholicXian said:
Heidi said:
[quote="CatholicXian":b213a][quote="Heidi":b213a][quote="CatholicXian":b213a]Heidi, you still never answered my question... if you aren't concerned with the OT (and the "laws of the OT") then why do statues bother you? There's nothing in the NT that says anything about statues. The 10 Commandments (and specifically the Commandment you refer to) are in the OT.
I did answer that, catholic, but you again show that you have no clue what I was talking about. I explained that being a slave to "Teachings that are but rules taught by men" are what bothers me. You first have to understand what Jesus means by that before you will understand me. So there is no point in explaining it to you again.
And when you answered, you flip-flopped on what you had said before regarding the OT. Never once have you given a straight answer to the question, but instead have sat there and tried to talk Covenant Theology with me.
If you want to go back and do some more studying on the issue, that's fine. But at least give a straight answer.
Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
Exodus 25:18-20 "And
thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."
Lastly. There is a great difference between a statue and an "idol" ("graven image"). There are no idols/graven images in the Catholic Church... statues are NOT gods. We worship the one, living, and true God, and we reverence and honor and marvel at His wonderous creation. This does not break any Commandments, nor does it take away from Him to honor His handiwork. Otherwise, as the second passage above (and many others would illustrate), God Himself would be commanding the Israelites to sin, and this is an absurd notion. Thus, "graven" is the key word in the Command, Heidi. Did you skip over that word? Or are you so omnipotent (like God) that you can know the statues in the Catholic Church are used as idols? When did God grant you such a mighty share in His Judgment. I follow the precepts of Christ's Church, and am held accountable to the Judgement of God alone.
I'm sure the Israelites didn't think they carved any graven images either. There is actually a picture of Pope John Paul, bowing down and kissing a statue of mary. Why did he do this? :o Does that not show reverence? :o
What's wrong with reverence, Heidi? Are not we commanded to show respect for one another (and "greet one another with a holy kiss")? Are those living in Japanese culture worshipping each other as God by bowing to each other as a sign of greeting? Are husbands and wives committing idolatry by kissing one another?
Bowing and kissing are signs of RESPECT/honor, Heidi. You are making one heck of a JUDGMENTAL leap by claiming Catholics are actually worshipping statues by showing gestures of respect towards the people/images they represent.
You are the only one making them idols, Heidi, not the Catholic Church.
:o That kind of reverence is only to be reserved for God, catholicxian, which is precisely why the bible tells us not to erect for ourselves as Romans 1: 23 says, "made to look like
mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." It's right there in print. But since you disregard it anyway, there is no point in quoting scripture for you any more.
And by the way, God gets the credit for the work that Mary did, not she herself. And until you understand that, you willalways praise human beings instead of God.[/quote:b213a]
Again, you evade any direct answer and only attempt to belittle my faith and understanding of God and Sacred Scripture... if you don't want to actually discuss things (but only rant and rave about how you believe Catholics are hellbound idolatrous people) then why in the world are you even posting on the message board (aka DISCUSSION board)?
Are you married, Heidi? Do you kiss your husband? Are you committing idolatry? What about kissing your parents... are you committing idolatry then too? Was Paul encouraging the Christian communities to engage in idolatrous pratices by exhorting them to greet one another with a holy kiss (cf. Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, etc.)?
What about all those times Paul tells Christians to imitate himself? Is Paul being blasphemous then, Heidi?
1 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore I beseech you, be imitators of me." (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:1)
Philippians 3:17 Brothers, be imitators together of me, and mark those who walk this way, for you have us for a pattern.
(see also 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9, 1 Thessalonians 1:6, and 1 Thess 2:14)[/quote:b213a]
Why are you mad at me? :o Those are Paul's words, not mine. I have rarely heard so many catholics at one time persist in disagreeing with the bible all to defend the pope. You're worshiping the wrong God. There is no excuse for someone who calls herself/himself to blatantly disagree with the word of God and take sides with a fallible human being like the pope. If you're angry at God's Word, then talk to God about it, not me. I shouldn't have to defend the bible to a Christian![/quote:b213a]
No, Heidi, I am not mad at you, I am simply trying to understand you.
I think I've referred to the words of Paul more times in this thread than you have, and yet you persist in ignoring both me, and the words of Sacred Scripture that I have used to back up my statements and questions. Do you have no answer to Paul's use of reverence to others in the Scripture?
Those are Paul's words, not mine, Heidi. I have used Scripture over and over in this thread, and all you've done is tell me you disagree with my interpretation without citing any reason, nor any evidence as to why I should view these verses otherwise. The Holy Spirit has convicted me of the Truth in the Sacred Scriptures, and I find that same Truth echoed in the doctrines of the Catholic faith. Christ is the Judge of my soul, so your continued jabs at my Scriptural devotion and my devotion to the Lord are merely empty repetitions. My trust is in Christ... who sees me quite differently than you apparently do.
God bless, Heidi. I'm going to sleep.
