[_ Old Earth _] Please take this poll.

[Dunzo]

Either it's a theory or it's a fact. I don't see how it could be both. Either it's been proven or it hasn't (which it most certainly hasn't). That's why it's called a theory.

Let's put this one to bed, shall we?

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

Yes, there are more churches than not who brainwash people and these are called cults (religious or otherwise). No doubt about that. If it doesn't line up with scripture, it needs to be tossed. Religion controls but Christianity is freedom!
I was once religious, for 20 years in fact. Then the Lord saved me and opened my eyes. I would never go back to being religious and clueless.

By brainwashing, I mean that parents will instill thoughts of god, heaven and hell (which can be particularly disturbing for young minds) in their children before they are old enough to think for themselves. As for christianity not being a religion...? What nonsense...

Did you know that Evolution is a religion? You probably would disagree but I just want to give you the heads up.

Damn right I disagree. What the hell are you talking about? How does the theory of evolution fit the definition of a religion at all?

So, your opinion is based on evidence? You still haven't shown me one bit of evidence to support your belief.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Read it if you have the stones.

Interesting that you didn't have anything to say about those 3 things I wrote in blue. Oh well.

I'll get around to it.

 

[ThreeInOne]

By brainwashing, I mean that parents will instill thoughts of god, heaven and hell (which can be particularly disturbing for young minds) in their children before they are old enough to think for themselves. As for christianity not being a religion...? What nonsense...

Damn right I disagree. What the hell are you talking about? How does the theory of evolution fit the definition of a religion at all?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Read it if you have the stones.

I am a parent whose children are being raised in a Christian home. When they were little I spoke about Jesus to them. As they started to get a little older, they had questions. I answered them according to what would be appropriate for their age and their understanding. I don't scare them to death with things but when they have certain questions, I waited until they were older to explain.
You are deceived in thinking I have a horror story for them when in reality, it's a love story. My children love Jesus and have accepted Him as their Savior when THEY were ready. They came to me asking how they can have Jesus in their hearts and lives.
Of course when they're old enough they'll think for themselves. I was raised Catholic thinking I was in the right religion, doing what I was supposed to do. God only knows how many generations of our family was Catholic. As an adult someone witnessed to me and I didn't just embrace what was said; I searched for answers for myself. Everything that man was telling me was true! Months later I dumped the religion for the real deal--Christianity! You see, there is a WORLD of difference between religion and Christianity. Religion is man based and Christianity is Jesus based. It's personal, not ritualistic. Bottom line, I had met my new best friend & Savior and I'm not ever leaving that for anyone or anything. I am His. I am free.

I knew you wouldn't accept that Evolution is just another "religion." But gee whiz, did you have to speak to me in that manner? Have I ever said anything improper to you? If I have, I apologize.

So, I ask you a question about why YOU personally believe what you believe and you send me to a website? Are you saying you believe every word on that site and everything you believe is based off of it? I could have just as easily sent you to a Creation website as I'm sure there are just as many of those sites as there are the Evolution ones. I wanted to hear your reasons in your own words. Maybe you don't even know why you believe what you believe....? Anyway, I did look over some of what was on there (sorry to disappoint you but I'm not afraid to read the devil's lies and again you spoke to me unappropriately) but it will take some time to read ALL of that! Nothing I've read so far is anything I haven't already heard before from Evolutionists point of view. It's still all nonsense.
Your passion is being wasted.
May the Lord bless you and free you.

 

[jwu]

Either it's a theory or it's a fact. I don't see how it could be both. Either it's been proven or it hasn't (which it most certainly hasn't). That's why it's called a theory.

Actually that's not how science works. Proof is for math and alcohol, in science nothing is ever proven. Things are just considered provisionally correct based on overwhelming evidence.

After all, there is still atomic theory, germ theory, theory of gravitation, theory of relativity.

Theory is as good as it gets in science. Before things become theories based on massive evidence, they are called hypotheses.

Calculations based upon the rate of the Sahara's expansion show the dessert to be 4,000 years old. This young age of the Sahara Desert fits quite well in the creationist timeline, beginning it's desertification process soon after the global flood.

No global flood happened 4000 years ago...but even if it did, what has the age of the sahara to do with the age of the earth? Note that there are many much older deserts on earth, which show no signs of large amounts of water for tens of thousands of years.

Population:
In 1810, a billion people lived on earth. In less than 200 years, the population hit six billion. This fits the Biblical chronology perfectly as the current population started about 4,400 years ago with Noah and his family after the flood. An evolutionary timeline would require not only a nearly non-existent growth rate but also three trillion deceased humans within the last million years!

This assumes an constant exponential increase of the human population, which is unrealistic. Moreover, if that were the case, who built the pyramids? There wouldn't have been even remotely enough people on earth at that time.

If you post the actual math then we can discuss it in detail.

Declining Magnetic Field:
Studies over the past 140 years show a consistent decay rate in the earth's magnetic field. At this rate, in as few as 25,000 years ago, the earth would have been unable to support life because of the heat from the electric current.

This assumes an exponential decrease of the strength of the magnetic field, which is not supported by evidence. What the actual evidence shows is a cyclic change of intensity.

How would these currents be generated actually? How strong would it supposedly have been?
Besides, this claim is based on outright lies propagated by Russell Humphreys. This is what he claims the magnetic field behaved like in the past:

What the data really says:

Note how the actual data shows practically a mirrored version of what AIG claims. Humphreys (who is responsible for that AiG graph) was repeatedly called on this, but he just referred to some mysterious data that is only available to him; to this day he has failed to provide the actual data on which he based that graph.

In other words, he made it up, he was plain lying and didn't even have the guts to retract that lie when he was called on it, instead making up excuses.

 

[Dunzo]

@jwu.
Well done, sir.

I am a parent whose children are being raised in a Christian home. When they were little I spoke about Jesus to them. As they started to get a little older, they had questions. I answered them according to what would be appropriate for their age and their understanding. I don't scare them to death with things but when they have certain questions, I waited until they were older to explain.
You are deceived in thinking I have a horror story for them when in reality, it's a love story. My children love Jesus and have accepted Him as their Savior when THEY were ready. They came to me asking how they can have Jesus in their hearts and lives.

Childhood indoctrination. Doesn't matter what you teach them, as long as you get 'em while they're young they'll believe whatever you tell them. Science education, on the other hand, does nothing of the sort.

Of course when they're old enough they'll think for themselves. I was raised Catholic thinking I was in the right religion, doing what I was supposed to do. God only knows how many generations of our family was Catholic. As an adult someone witnessed to me and I didn't just embrace what was said; I searched for answers for myself. Everything that man was telling me was true! Months later I dumped the religion for the real deal--Christianity! You see, there is a WORLD of difference between religion and Christianity. Religion is man based and Christianity is Jesus based. It's personal, not ritualistic. Bottom line, I had met my new best friend & Savior and I'm not ever leaving that for anyone or anything. I am His. I am free.

Christianity is a religion no matter which way you look at it. Christianity is Jesus based in exactly the same way that Greek Mythology is Zeus based, Norse Mythology is Odin based, and so on and so forth. They're all religions, and the Christian Mythology is of no exception.

I knew you wouldn't accept that Evolution is just another "religion." But gee whiz, did you have to speak to me in that manner? Have I ever said anything improper to you? If I have, I apologize.

No, you're right. Overreaction on my behalf. Still, evolution is by no means a religion whatsoever. "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

So, I ask you a question about why YOU personally believe what you believe and you send me to a website? Are you saying you believe every word on that site and everything you believe is based off of it?

Certainly not. My beliefs are not based off a single website just as your beliefs wouldn't be based off AiG.

I could have just as easily sent you to a Creation website as I'm sure there are just as many of those sites as there are the Evolution ones. I wanted to hear your reasons in your own words. Maybe you don't even know why you believe what you believe....?

Of course I know why. Because the evidence is stacked up in support of it, and not a single shred of this evidence can be seen to support any religious account of the world. Evidence is everything.

Anyway, I did look over some of what was on there (sorry to disappoint you but I'm not afraid to read the devil's lies and again you spoke to me unappropriately) but it will take some time to read ALL of that! Nothing I've read so far is anything I haven't already heard before from Evolutionists point of view. It's still all nonsense.
Your passion is being wasted.
May the Lord bless you and free you.

How could it possibly be nonsense? If you're saying that you obviously didn't even begin to comprehend what that site was saying. The evidence is overwhelming. You'll never see a creationist attempt to refute endogenous retroviruses, simply because it can't be done. Evolution just happens. It's a fact.

 

[jwu]

Still, evolution is by no means a religion whatsoever. "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

Keep in mind, evolution does not equal atheism.

 

[ThreeInOne]

Who built the pyramids?

No one knows for sure who built the Great Pyramid, but several theories have been proposed. Some think it is just another of the pyramids built by Egyptians. Some think Adam and his sons built it before the flood. Some think Enoch built it and that is the only structure to survive the flood. Others say Noah and his sons built it after the flood. According to some experts, it appears that some of its features indicate that it was intended to be a testimony to God. Adam did not have a Bible so God gave him the gospel story in the stars with the 88 constellations telling the entire gospel story and God's plan for the ages. After the flood Noah still did not have a Bible so God gave him the gospel story in stone.

The Great Pyramid has no inscription to any Egyptian king.

It is the earliest and largest of the 67 pyramids found in Egypt. The later pyramids are of lesser quality and are mere copies of the Great Pyramid.

Inside there is a broad way that leads to a pit and a narrow way that leads to the King's Chamber. (Sounds like Matthew 7).

The 153 steps in the pyramid match the 153 fishes gathered in John 21:11, which may be a reference to all nations of the earth gathering into the kingdom of God.

The King's Chamber is on the 50th row of the stones; 50 was the year of Jubilee (Lev. 25:11)

Inside the King's Chamber is a solid carved, empty red granite tomb the same volume as the Ark of the Covenant.

Although most have been torn off, the pyramid was originally covered with 144,000 polished casing stones, the number of witnesses in Revelation 7. The stones were a perfect fit such that many of the seams could not be seen nor a paper put between them today, thousands of years later.

The cornerstone at the top is missing, symbolic of Christ, the rejected chief cornerstone (Daniel 2:45; Psalm 118:22; Matt 21:42; Mk 10:12). The 5 sided cornerstone may represent the number of grace.

The Great Pyramid is of such magnitude that it could not be built today. It is 90 times the volume of the Chicago Sears Tower. Napoleon said there was enough stone in the pyramid to built a 10 foot high brick wall all the way around France! Some stones near the top, 400 feet from teh ground, weigh 70 tons!

The foundation covers so wide an area (over 13 acres) that it could not be built today as level as it is (less than 1/10 inch error in 13 acres). Every locomotive in the world harnessed to the Pyramid could not pull it. The door is so well joined that it was undetectable from the outside for centuries.

The pyramid sits right on the longest latitude line and the longest longitude line with land above sea level.

"In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD." Isaiah 19:19. The pyramid is on the border when Egypt was divided into a northern and southern kingdom and in the midst when they united.

Satan has been using the Great Pyramid as his symbol for the New World Order. On the back of a $1 bill you will see the pyramid with the "all seeing eye" (which is Lucifer) coming down to finish the pyramid. He thinks he will take over God's kingdom, but Jesus will be the one to come down the earth and rule and reign for 1000 years. Rev. 20-22.

 

[ThreeInOne]

Ok dunzo & jwu, you believe what you want. I'm not here to argue with you. Only the Holy Spirit can help you to open your eyes.
I just have a few more things to say....

A global flood DID happen.

Just for the record, I'm 100% against religion and personally I hate it (just as Jesus did/does) even more than I hate evolution. It does more harm than good. It's "works" based. Jesus FINISHED the works on the cross.
I am a Christian. Nothing more, nothing less. Definately NOT religious!

I would like to quote 3 scriptures for you:
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

John 20:29
Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed. 8-)


May the Lord bless you both and may He open your eyes before it's too late.

 

[Dunzo]

Still, evolution is by no means a religion whatsoever. "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

Keep in mind, evolution does not equal atheism.

I realized that while posting, but figured that since the two go hand in hand quite nicely, the quote still had a point.

 

[gibby]

I go back and forth on the age of the earth topic. One problem I have is, why would God make it appear that the earth is older? And, if the bible states that each step in creation is a "day", why would people believe that God really meant one day is a million years or so? And, the only evidence for a young earth is biblical geneology.

I guess I will just have to trust in God even though I don't have all the answers.

 

[ThreeInOne]

I go back and forth on the age of the earth topic. One problem I have is, why would God make it appear that the earth is older? And, if the bible states that each step in creation is a "day", why would people believe that God really meant one day is a million years or so? And, the only evidence for a young earth is biblical geneology.

I guess I will just have to trust in God even though I don't have all the answers.

How old should a 6,000 year old earth look?
How old should a million (millions/billions) year old earth look?

You are a Christian and you know how sneaky Satan is, right?

Also, you already answered your own question with your last sentence! Isn't God's evidence enough?

You know that other thread you were talking about doing a small group study? Well, that's the study I'm currently doing (Genesis: Evolution vs. Creationism).
Maybe doing that type of study will help you with your doubts/questions.

 

[Dunzo]

I go back and forth on the age of the earth topic. One problem I have is, why would God make it appear that the earth is older? And, if the bible states that each step in creation is a "day", why would people believe that God really meant one day is a million years or so? And, the only evidence for a young earth is biblical geneology.

And what terrible evidence it is. Has there been any person not covered in the bible confirmed to live to be hundreds of years old? The Bible is by no means a reliable source.

How old should a 6,000 year old earth look?
How old should a million (millions/billions) year old earth look?

You are a Christian and you know how sneaky Satan is, right?

Also, you already answered your own question with your last sentence! Isn't God's evidence enough?

You know that other thread you were talking about doing a small group study? Well, that's the study I'm currently doing (Genesis: Evolution vs. Creationism).
Maybe doing that type of study will help you with your doubts/questions.

No, it definitely won't help if you're heavily biased. You already know what the conclusion you'll arrive at is.

 

[ThreeInOne]

People then lived to be close to 1,000 years old. If you read the bible, that got changed to approximately 120 years old, if I'm not mistaken.

This is anything but terrible evidence. And the bible is the ONLY reliable source.

Gibby, check it out for yourself.

 

[Dunzo]

No, the bible is simply a fairy tale. The fact that it contains numberable contradictions, and that it's totally scientifically incorrect on many occasions means it's utterly unreliable as a historic and scientific source.

 

[ThreeInOne]

You are lost, dunzo and need serious prayer.
I will keep you in my prayers as I'm sure many of the Christians who come to these boards will also.

 

[Dunzo]

You are lost, dunzo and need serious prayer.
I will keep you in my prayers as I'm sure many of the Christians who come to these boards will also.

:o :-?

Are you going to attempt to refute my points or accept them? Surely if you accept them you'd have to abandon the bible altogether!

 

[ThreeInOne]

Dunzo:
You are on Satan's payroll.
I will never not believe the bible.

But thank you for this discussion and not allowing it to get overheated.
And actually, you've only reinforced everything I've said as truth. :wink:

 

[Dunzo]

Dunzo:
You are on Satan's payroll.
I will never not believe the bible.

But thank you for this discussion and not allowing it to get overheated.
And actually, you've only reinforced everything I've said as truth. :wink:

...No, Satan doesn't exist... I'm not on Satan's payroll...
But that's what he wants me to think isn't it? How convenient.

Saying you'll never not believe in the bible is an incredibly foolish statement to make. Even in the face of decisive evidence against the existence of god and the validity of the bible (which, to be honest, I'm quite sure already exists), you would stand your ground? That's not faith, that's idiocy.

 

[ThreeInOne]

God's Word calls you a fool.

 

[Dunzo]

OK, it's pretty obvious we're never going to reach any kind of agreement here, and we're going nowhere. Thread over.

 

[polysci006]

People then lived to be close to 1,000 years old. If you read the bible, that got changed to approximately 120 years old, if I'm not mistaken.

Very mistaken. You are thinking of the date set for the flood in Genesis 6. It was not a limit on man's age, but a limit on how much longer God was going to put up with the depravity on the earth.

120 years later, the flood came.