Poking Holes in Pre-Wrath ; - )

[JM]

Got your attention now...

I'm interested in a critic from pre-wrath believers about their own view. I'm re-reading The Sign and The Rapture Question Answered by Van Kampen and find I study better from a critical point of view.

Thanks.

 

[JM]

Found on amazon:

In order to be fair, I would like to give a brief summary of the pre-wrath rapture and then provide my analysis to this rapture theory.

1. What is Pre-wrath Rapture?

As mentioned in the book, the prewrath view of the rapture departs from the customary two-fold division of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27 and suggests that a threefold division is more valid. They would be: the first division, the "Beginning of Birth Pangs" (Matthew 24:4-8) or first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) which cover the first half of the seventieth week; the second division, the "Great Tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) or second to fifth seals (Revelation 6:3-11) which will begin in the middle of the seventieth week and end sometime between the middle and end. The sixth seal warns believers about the coming of the "Day of the LORD" (Revelation 6:12-17), and at this point the rapture will occur; and the third division, will consist of the "Day of the LORD" which begins with the breaking of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1) and continues until the end of the seventieth week.

The prewrath rapture position places the rapture of the church at the "Day of the LORD" which occurs after the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and after the tribulation of those days is interrupted and cut short by that "Day of the LORD" return of Jesus (Matthew 24:29).

2. The arguments for and against the Prewrath Rapture view are illustrated in below paragraphs:

The wrath of God is not the entire seven-year tribulation period. The seven years are divided into the following parts: The first half is labeled the beginning of sorrows. The first half of the second half is called the Great Tribulation. The final approx. 21 months are the day of the LORD. The first three-quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. Only the final period is a time of God's wrath.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 heaps together a number of terms that characterize the future day of the LORD. The context of Zephaniah 1:14-18 supports the conclusion that all these descriptives apply to the day of the LORD. Such Biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the day of the LORD into compartmental segments as the prewrath rapturists insist. The text plainly says that the day of the LORD is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath. The first five seals are the wrath of men and Satan instead of God (Revelation 6:1-17). The Lamb is the individual who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments.

Jesus defines the tribulation begins at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week (Matthew 24:9-29). Jesus hasn't told us when the tribulation will begin (Matthew 24:36).

The second seal of Revelation 6:3-4 begins at the mid-point of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27. The duration of the first seal is not mentioned in Revelation 6:1-2.

The seals are chronological except that numbers 3, 4, and 5 are concurrent (Revelation 6:5-11). Jesus broke all the seven seals one by one instead of simultaneously. If the Prewrath rapturists believe that the seals are chronological, then there is no valid reason for them to believe that numbers 3, 4 and 5 are concurrent (i.e. exception).

The sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17 is the return of Jesus at the Day of the LORD and parallels Matthew 24:29-31 and Joel 2:30-31.

You cannot find any word in Revelation 6:12-17 which indicates the return of Christ at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16. If the day of the LORD commences with the judgments at the end of the tribulation, then how can it begin with a time of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)?

The wrath of God begins at the seventh seal (Revelation 6:15-17).

The context shows us that the wrath of God begins at the first six seals instead of the seventh. The description of "the great day of their wrath has come" clearly shows us that the wrath of God "has already come" (i.e. in perfect tense) at the first six seals instead of "will come" at the seventh seal (i.e. in future tense).

The raptured church is seen in heaven (Revelation 7:9-17) having been taken out of the great tribulation just as Jesus taught would happen at Matthew 24:22, 29-31.

You cannot find any word in Revelation 7:9-17 which indicates that the great multitude is the raptured church and the return of Christ is happened at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16 (compare with Matthew 24:29-31).

If the great multitude is the raptured church, then why the apostle John could not identify them as the church?

The description of "... who come out of the great tribulation ... " clearly shows us that the great multitude is tribulation saints, who come out of the great tribulation. The rapture of the church must take place after the mid-point of the week. At 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul equates the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (v. 1) with the Day of the LORD (v. 2). He then indicates that the Day of the LORD will not occur until "the apostacy" takes place and "the man of lawlessness" is revealed (v. 3).

Paul had taught that the Day of the LORD would not occur until the "gathering together," or rapture, had first taken place. Thus he had to establish that the Day of the LORD had not occurred in order to prove that the rapture had not yet occurred either. The Thessalonians had been taught by someone (2 Thessalonians 2:2) that this Day of the LORD had "already come," creating a contradiction with Paul's teaching of the rapture as occurring before that time. This had left them "unsettled and alarmed."

This would favor both the pretribulational and midtribulational rapture positions instead of the prewrath position.

3. Evaluation of Prewrath Rapture

Having seen something of the history of, doctrinal characteristics, Biblical support cited for and arguments for prewrath rapture theory, we must now evaluate it. What are its strengths and its weaknesses?

3.1 Positive aspects

The positive aspects of the prewrath rapture view are as follows:

It is a mediate view among posttribulationism, midtribulationism and pretribulationism. As such has commended itself to some who for one reason or another are dissatisfied with both posttribulationism, midtribulationism and pretribulationism.

It is able to claim the promises of comfort and blessing which seem to be denied by the posttribulationists who take the church through the entire period.

It avoids one fundamental problem of the midtribulational rapture position which identifies the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 with the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52.

3.2 Negative aspects

The prewrath rapture view is rarely held by Christian churches because of the following four major reasons:

it has four fundamental mistakes in its view; it has too many unwarranted assumptions; and one argument raised by the prewrath rapturists seems to be a better argument for the midtribulational and pretribulational rapture views; many of its essential bases are actually copied from the midtribulational and posttribulational rapture views.

3.2.1 The four fundamental mistakes

Prewrath rapturists have made four fundamental mistakes in their interpretation of future events:

They believe that the wrath of God is not the entire seven-year tribulation period and they divide the tribulation period into three parts. They stress that only the final period (i.e. the day of the LORD) is a time of God's wrath. However, Zephaniah 1:14-18 proves that day of the LORD is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath and it does not allow an interpreter to chop the day of the LORD into compartmental segments.

They believe that the first five seals are the wrath of men and Satan instead of God (Revelation 6:1-17). However, the Lamb is the individual who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. Therefore, Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments.

They believe that the sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17 is the return of Jesus at the Day of the LORD. However, you cannot find any word in Revelation 6:12-17 which indicates the return of Christ at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16. In addition, if the day of the LORD commences with the judgments at the end of the tribulation, then how can it begin with a time of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)?

They believe that the wrath of God begins at the seventh seal (Revelation 6:15-17).

 

[Vic C.]

Judy and I (thanks to her) are the only two who really have a grasp on the Pre Wrath position. You probably know by now that I have adjusted some of beliefs but I am sill on agreement with their basic timeline of things. I will ask you to fold out the chart that is in the back of the Sign and see if the timeline matches that of the text you provided. I will comment only on the first point now, so we don't got too confused and wind uo all over the place.

1. What is Pre-wrath Rapture?

As mentioned in the book, the prewrath view of the rapture departs from the customary two-fold division of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27 and suggests that a threefold division is more valid. They would be: the first division, the "Beginning of Birth Pangs" (Matthew 24:4-8) or first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) which cover the first half of the seventieth week; the second division, the "Great Tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) or second to fifth seals (Revelation 6:3-11) which will begin in the middle of the seventieth week and end sometime between the middle and end. The sixth seal warns believers about the coming of the "Day of the LORD" (Revelation 6:12-17), and at this point the rapture will occur; and the third division, will consist of the "Day of the LORD" which begins with the breaking of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1) and continues until the end of the seventieth week.

I find many critics of PreWrath don't really know PreWrath at all and should not be criticixing it. My opinion of course. Do you see the first problem with this statement? Lets break it down.

As mentioned in the book, the prewrath view of the rapture departs from the customary two-fold division of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27 and suggests that a threefold division is more valid.

I don't believe that. We see it as two divisions with the Tribulation and and most of the Wrat in the second half. We believe the Bowls fall into the additional 30 days of Daniel after the 70th week. Some even go as far as saying the Bowls ARE the REAL Wrath, but I don't.

They would be: the first division, the "Beginning of Birth Pangs" (Matthew 24:4-8) or first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) which cover the first half of the seventieth week

Look at the chart. Van Kampen doesn't teach this!

the second division, the "Great Tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) or second to fifth seals (Revelation 6:3-11) which will begin in the middle of the seventieth week and end sometime between the middle and end.

Again, look at the chart; we don't teach that either.

The sixth seal warns believers about the coming of the "Day of the LORD" (Revelation 6:12-17), and at this point the rapture will occur;

Yes, we do theach that.

and the third division, will consist of the "Day of the LORD" which begins with the breaking of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1) and continues until the end of the seventieth week.

We don't see this as a third division. We do teach that The Day of Lord completes the second half and spills over into the 30 day I mentioned earlier, capped off by the Gathering of the OT chosen Ones, the sheep and goat judgement and the battle at Armageddon.

The prewrath rapture position places the rapture of the church at the "Day of the LORD" which occurs after the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and after the tribulation of those days is interrupted and cut short by that "Day of the LORD" return of Jesus (Matthew 24:29).

Agreed and I would add this:

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The reasons we seperate the Great Trib and the Day of the Lord is simple and scriptual.

Thet Great Tribulation ends with cosmic events:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The Day of the Lord begins right after the same cosmic events:

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

:end

 

[JM]

Thanks Vic, can you post the link for the question and answers?

Here's another one: For me, it was two things:

1. The fact that pre-wrath (or, pre-trib) wasn't taught by anyone until around 1830. It's arguably the second most important event in Christianity, (after the resurrection) and nobody knew about it for 1800 years? One person came up with the idea, just like one person came up with Mormonism, or People's Temple, or Branch Davidians.

2. The fact that all references to the Rapture can be easily applied to a post-trib appearing.

Another big one is the letters to the Seven Churches. We are supposed to be in the Seventh Church age, yet the promise to "keep you out of the hour of trial" is given to the Sixth Church. Those who claim the letters to the churches support pre-wrath ignore this.

 

[Georges]

Thanks Vic, can you post the link for the question and answers?

Here's another one: For me, it was two things:

1. The fact that pre-wrath (or, pre-trib) wasn't taught by anyone until around 1830. It's arguably the second most important event in Christianity, (after the resurrection) and nobody knew about it for 1800 years? One person came up with the idea, just like one person came up with Mormonism, or People's Temple, or Branch Davidians.

2. The fact that all references to the Rapture can be easily applied to a post-trib appearing.
....

Not so.....I think there is every indication that the/a rapture will occur no less than 7 days before the 2nd coming, based on the Jewish wedding ceremony and the Fall Feast dasy....Pretrib is possible, but I think prewrath more likely...

Another big one is the letters to the Seven Churches. We are supposed to be in the Seventh Church age, yet the promise to "keep you out of the hour of trial" is given to the Sixth Church. Those who claim the letters to the churches support pre-wrath ignore this.

I'm not a fan of the Letter's Church Age theory....Every generation since Pentecost has had each of these Churches in the midst....

The letters are simply meant to get the Church back to it's Jewish roots...in Torah observation.

[/color]

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Vic, can you post the link for the question and answers?

Sure. I'll stickey them for a while and lock them so as to not create a diversion from this thred by posters that may post in my threads.

Here's another one: For me, it was two things:

1. The fact that pre-wrath (or, pre-trib) wasn't taught by anyone until around 1830. It's arguably the second most important event in Christianity, (after the resurrection) and nobody knew about it for 1800 years? One person came up with the idea, just like one person came up with Mormonism, or People's Temple, or Branch Davidians.

I believe a sort of PreWrath understand has always been there. To me, it's only new in that it has been given a name.

The fact that it took so long to come back to the forefront, I con only speculate as to why. Somewhere in this Forum, you posted a list of early chuch "fathers" and many at them hinted at a prewrath belief. I wish I could find your post. The fact that your usermane is only two lettes long doesn't help. : Our search engine has a three character minimum.

I do believe this:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There has been such an increase these days to "unlock" the Truth to End Times, if it is even possible.

2. The fact that all references to the Rapture can be easily applied to a post-trib appearing.

They could, depending on how you interpret 1 Thess 5:9 and whether or not you consider the harpazio as the Second coming. 1 Thess 4:17 suggest this event isn't the actual Second Coming. I understand the Second Coming to be when He actually appears on Earth, bot in some clouds.

Another big one is the letters to the Seven Churches. We are supposed to be in the Seventh Church age, yet the promise to "keep you out of the hour of trial" is given to the Sixth Church. Those who claim the letters to the churches support pre-wrath ignore this.

I too believe we are entering the so-called Laodicean era. I do believe there is a remnant of the Faithful church that will be granted protectiom through the Hour of Temptation (the GT). Who these churches are is not paramount to my accepting a PreWrath position. These "church ages" are more important to those who like to chop up Sctipture into little peices (ages or dispensations, if you wish).

This brings me to George's post.

 

[Vic C.]

2. The fact that all references to the Rapture can be easily applied to a post-trib appearing.

Not so.....I think there is every indication that the/a rapture will occur no less than 7 days before the 2nd coming, based on the Jewish wedding ceremony and the Fall Feast dasy....Pretrib is possible, but I think prewrath more likely...

That's entirely possible George. I believe the events following the hrpazio could very well be fired off in rapid sucession. There's also the belief that some of these events are concurrent, but I'm not inclined to see them that way.

I'm not a fan of the Letter's Church Age theory....Every generation since Pentecost has had each of these Churches in the midst....

The letters are simply meant to get the Church back to it's Jewish roots...in Torah observation.

This also could be possible and like I said above, they are not a essential to my End Times beliefs. I see them as warnings to get believers back on plumb (center). I need to study and research the Churches some more.

 

[Judy]

I haven't read all that you have posted. However this caught my eye.

Another big one is the letters to the Seven Churches. We are supposed to be in the Seventh Church age, yet the promise to "keep you out of the hour of trial" is given to the Sixth Church. Those who claim the letters to the churches support pre-wrath ignore this

.

Who ever said that the letters to the 7 churches support a pre-wrath view???

One thing I don't believe is that the 7 churches represent the church ages.... I believe that in end times and just like today we will have churches that fit the discription of the churches in Rev. among us. The only one that was given that promise was the church of Philadelphia. They will be protected during the wrath of Satan. The rest of the churches will have to endure this wrath and most will be killed. :-?

 

[Vic C.]

I'm skipping point 2 for now so that Judy can answer some of your questions.

3. Evaluation of Prewrath Rapture

Having seen something of the history of, doctrinal characteristics, Biblical support cited for and arguments for prewrath rapture theory, we must now evaluate it. What are its strengths and its weaknesses?

3.1 Positive aspects

The positive aspects of the prewrath rapture view are as follows:

It is a mediate view among posttribulationism, midtribulationism and pretribulationism. As such has commended itself to some who for one reason or another are dissatisfied with both posttribulationism, midtribulationism and pretribulationism.

It is able to claim the promises of comfort and blessing which seem to be denied by the posttribulationists who take the church through the entire period.

It avoids one fundamental problem of the midtribulational rapture position which identifies the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 with the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52.

So far, so good.

3.2 Negative aspects

The prewrath rapture view is rarely held by Christian churches because of the following four major reasons:

it has four fundamental mistakes in its view; it has too many unwarranted assumptions; and one argument raised by the prewrath rapturists seems to be a better argument for the midtribulational and pretribulational rapture views; many of its essential bases are actually copied from the midtribulational and posttribulational rapture views.

Ok, everybody makes assumptions, but do all assumptions take into consideration other scripture that may indeed support said assumptions? I have a BIG problem seeing the Church in Revelation 4:1. I have a big problem assuming a pretribulation since I see no solid support for it. I see a big problem assuming the Holy Sprit as the Restrainer, when Scripture supports Michael. I see...

3.2.1 The four fundamental mistakes

Prewrath rapturists have made four fundamental mistakes in their interpretation of future events:

They believe that the wrath of God is not the entire seven-year tribulation period and they divide the tribulation period into three parts. They stress that only the final period (i.e. the day of the LORD) is a time of God's wrath. However, Zephaniah 1:14-18 proves that day of the LORD is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath and it does not allow an interpreter to chop the day of the LORD into compartmental segments.

I believe I have already posted a simplified version of why the GT and Wrath are two seperate events using direct scripture from Joel and Jesus. No spectulation there. I already covered the "three part" seperating of the 70th. week.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 doesn't say what the above claims. The word Tribulation is never mentioned. As a matter of fact, the word is only used three times in the OT; none of the occurrences are used to describe the GT. A reading of Zep 1:17 confirms that. It shows the Lord is bringing Wrath upon the people, not Satan.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

They believe that the first five seals are the wrath of men and Satan instead of God (Revelation 6:1-17). However, the Lamb is the individual who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. Therefore, Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments.

This is either speculation or a misunderstanding of Scripture. All it tells me is God allows these events to take place. The events in the first four seals are the acts of the FALSE Messiah, the counerfeit Christ.

They believe that the first five seals are the wrath of men and Satan instead of God (Revelation 6:1-17)

Correct. The Wrath doesn't start until Revelation 6:17:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

is the return of Jesus at the Day of the LORD. However, you cannot find any word in Revelation 6:12-17 which indicates the return of Christ at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16.

I believe from scripture that Jesus actually comes to Earth at the End of the Wrath. We don't teach He comes at the beginning. We do teach that the beginning of the Wrath initiates the Second Coming, with His actual appearance at the end.

In addition, if the day of the LORD commences with the judgments at the end of the tribulation, then how can it begin with a time of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)?

We don't teach peace and safety at this time. That's illogical. We teach that part of first half of the seventh week is the (short) time of peace and safety.

1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Just like the "thief in the night", this time will come to them so swiftly and unknowingly, that they won't even know what hit them.

This is fun.

 

[Judy]

2. The arguments for and against the Prewrath Rapture view are illustrated in below paragraphs:

The wrath of God is not the entire seven-year tribulation period. The seven years are divided into the following parts: The first half is labeled the beginning of sorrows. The first half of the second half is called the Great Tribulation. The final approx. 21 months are the day of the LORD. The first three-quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. Only the final period is a time of God's wrath.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 heaps together a number of terms that characterize the future day of the LORD. The context of Zephaniah 1:14-18 supports the conclusion that all these descriptives apply to the day of the LORD. Such Biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the day of the LORD into compartmental segments as the prewrath rapturists insist. The text plainly says that the day of the LORD is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath.

Jason,
No one is chopping the day of the Lord into compartment... The wrath of God is not the whole 7 years.. it doesn't start until we see the signs the Lord spoke of. And of course we have Rev.6:17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?.

It is the Lord that has showed us the signs to look for the "Day of the Lord" and those signs are in the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth. That signals that start of the Wrath of God.

• Rev. 6: 12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
  13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/*:m:ab52f]

• Isaiah 13:6. Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
  7. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
  8. And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
  9. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
  10. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
  11. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
  13. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.[/*:m:ab52f]

• Joel 2:11. And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
  vs.30. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
  31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
  32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.[/*:m:ab52f]

• Acts 2:19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
  20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:[/*:m:ab52f]

The first five seals are the wrath of men and Satan instead of God (Revelation 6:1-17). The Lamb is the individual who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments.

Jason,
I would agree that the seals are the wrath of Satan. And I would agree that it is the Lord who is breaking the seals which initiates all six seals. God is sovereign and is in control of everything. He has allowed Satan a short time to persecute His people as we see in Rev. 12:12. But that is not God's wrath. God also allowed Satan to harass Paul as we see 2 Cor. 12:7. But it isn't God's wrath. If what you are saying, is because the Lord is the one that opens the seals that that is His wrath. You would also have Him responsible for the murder of the martyrs in Rev.6:9-11.

• Rev. 12:12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
  14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
  15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
  16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
  17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/*:m:ab52f]

• 2Cor.7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure[/*:m:ab52f]

• Rev. 6: 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
  11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/*:m:ab52f]

 

[Judy]

Jesus defines the tribulation begins at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week (Matthew 24:9-29). Jesus hasn't told us when the tribulation will begin (Matthew 24:36).

Ok!

The second seal of Revelation 6:3-4 begins at the mid-point of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27. The duration of the first seal is not mentioned in Revelation 6:1-2.

I wouldn't say that the second seal is in the middle. And I don't believe I have ever heard of anyone putting it there. I believe the 5 seal is the mid point.

The seals are chronological except that numbers 3, 4, and 5 are concurrent (Revelation 6:5-11). Jesus broke all the seven seals one by one instead of simultaneously. If the Prewrath rapturists believe that the seals are chronological, then there is no valid reason for them to believe that numbers 3, 4 and 5 are concurrent (i.e. exception).

Again, I have to ask where did you get the idea that the 3, 4, and 5 are concurrent? Each one is opened individually and what is within that seal is allowed to happen.

The sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17 is the return of Jesus at the Day of the LORD and parallels Matthew 24:29-31 and Joel 2:30-31.

I believe this also and I also believe that that is the start of God's wrath. Look at Rev. 6:17

• Rev. 6:7. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[/*:m:72a78]

You cannot find any word in Revelation 6:12-17 which indicates the return of Christ at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16. If the day of the LORD commences with the judgments at the end of the tribulation, then how can it begin with a time of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)?

Well, maybe Rev. 6:12-17 doesn't indicate the return of Christ. However lets look at the same time frame in Matt. 24:29-30. If we check it out we see that immediately after the tribulation of those days... We see the signs that the Lord told us would signal The day of the Lord..

• Matt. 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/*:m:72a78]

The wrath of God begins at the seventh seal (Revelation 6:15-17).

Totally agree.

The context shows us that the wrath of God begins at the first six seals instead of the seventh. The description of "the great day of their wrath has come" clearly shows us that the wrath of God "has already come" (i.e. in perfect tense) at the first six seals instead of "will come" at the seventh seal (i.e. in future tense).

In Mark 14:41 the Lord uses the same word to say that His hour has come to be betrayed. So with the logic above does this mean that He had already been betrayed... instead of will be betrayed at His hour?

• Mark 14:41...........The hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.[/*:m:72a78]

The raptured church is seen in heaven (Revelation 7:9-17) having been taken out of the great tribulation just as Jesus taught would happen at Matthew 24:22, 29-31.

I would also agree with this. The church is the great multitude that no one could number in Rev. 7:9-17.

You cannot find any word in Revelation 7:9-17 which indicates that the great multitude is the raptured church and the return of Christ is happened at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16 (compare with Matthew 24:29-31).

I would think it would be obvious with what we have seen that before the day of the Lord there will be signs in the sun, moon and the stars. and we also know that the day of the Lord is going to be " Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it" "for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?"
And we also know that we will not suffer God's wrath. So just before God pours out His wrath (Rev.6:17), He has his angels seal the 144,000 Jews and then we see for the first time this great multitude standing before the throne praising the Lord.

If the great multitude is the raptured church, then why the apostle John could not identify them as the church?

I believe that it was one of the 24 elders who ask the question, and John answers him saying you know.. and the elder say these are those who came out of the great tribulation.

• Rev. 7:13. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
  14. I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [/*:m:72a78]

(NAS)

The description of "... who come out of the great tribulation ... " clearly shows us that the great multitude is tribulation saints, who come out of the great tribulation. The rapture of the church must take place after the mid-point of the week. At 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul equates the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (v. 1) with the Day of the LORD (v. 2). He then indicates that the Day of the LORD will not occur until "the apostacy" takes place and "the man of lawlessness" is revealed (v. 3).

I agree with this.

Paul had taught that the Day of the LORD would not occur until the "gathering together," or rapture, had first taken place. Thus he had to establish that the Day of the LORD had not occurred in order to prove that the rapture had not yet occurred either. The Thessalonians had been taught by someone (2 Thessalonians 2:2) that this Day of the LORD had "already come," creating a contradiction with Paul's teaching of the rapture as occurring before that time. This had left them "unsettled and alarmed."

I will end this with whatever.... only because it has taken me hours to compose these two posts. And I am really tired because I had to work 11 hours today.

This would favor both the pretribulational and midtribulational rapture positions instead of the prewrath position.

Wrong!

 

[JM]

Vic, Judy, could you explain the New Covenant in light of your prewrath view?

 

[MrVersatile48]

I just have time to post this link:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 519#276519

2 posts have said, 'the wrath of Satan'

But Revelation etc shows God's wrath against sin

 

[JM]

In any case, Dr. Van Kampen does not see God's wrath revealed until after the sixth seal (see chart on page 164). He quotes Revelation 6:17 where, when the sixth seal is broken, the world leaders cry for the rocks to hide them from the One who sits on the throne and from the Lamb because, "the great day of their wrath has come." If one took this text at face value, he would say that with the breaking of the sixth seal, the world leaders recognize that the great day of God's wrath has come. But since Dr. Van Kampen doesn't believe God's wrath is poured out until the seventh seal, he argues "the aorist tense is, generally speaking, timeless" (page 153) and thus probably means here that the day of God's wrath is about to come (pages 153-154). In response, it should be noted that when the aorist tense is used in the indicative (as it is here) it is not timeless but usually indicates past time. Dana and Mantey state, "It has no essential temporal significance, its time relations being found only in the indicative, where it is used as past" [A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by H. E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey (NY: The Macmillan Company, 1927), page 193] while Wallace says, "In the indicative, the aorist usually indicates past time" [Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel B. Wallace (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1996), page 555]

Furthermore, Revelation 6:17 gives the perspective of the world leaders. God's view is different: the sealed book contains divine judgment upon the world, and the breaking of the seals unleashes God's wrath. In Revelation 5:1 the sealed book is in the right hand of the One sitting upon the throne, and only the Lord Jesus is found worthy to take it and break the seals to pronounce God's judgment (Revelation 5:2-7). As Dr. Van Kampen himself states, "The biblical teaching concerning end times primarily has to do with the judgment and wrath of God against the unrighteous world. In fact, the book of Revelation is almost entirely about God's wrath. When the angel asks, 'Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?' (Rev. 5:2), the answer is, 'the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah' (v. 5), whom John describes to his readers as 'a Lamb' (v. 6), a reference to Jesus Christ" (page 51). If the seal judgments begin at the start of the Tribulation (as Dr. Van Kampen and I both believe is true) and if God's wrath begins to be poured with the first seal (as Revelation 5 teaches) and if the Rapture occurs before God's wrath is poured out (as Dr. Van Kampen and I both believe is true) then the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins.

 

[JM]

A couple more chucks...

"Church" is used in Revelation, chapters 1-3 and 22, but not in chapters 4-21. Dr. Van Kampen gives the same explanation as previously stated (pages 133-137). One has only to read carefully the letters our Lord wrote to these seven churches (Revelation 2 and 3) to realize that this explanation is not acceptable here, either. "Church" is not found in Revelation 4-18 because these chapters describe events on earth during the seven-year Tribulation, and the Church is not present. In Revelation 19, when Christ returns, the Church is seen as the wife of the Lamb (v 7 cf. Ephesians 5:22-32). In Revelation 20, the doom of the devil (vv 1-10) and the destiny of the lost (vv 11-15) are described. In Revelation 21, the redeemed of all the ages are classified in their distinct groupings. Proof: (1) in verse 3 "people" is literally "peoples;" (2) in verse 12, the gates of the New Jerusalem have the names of the 12 tribes of Israel written on them whereas in verse 14 the foundations of that city have the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb written on them; and (3) in verses 24 and 26, believing nations retain their ethnic glory.

In fact, if you were to look up every verse in the New Testament where "church" is found you would discover it refers either to the Church which is Christ's Body (Ephesians 1:22-23) or to local congregations composed of "saints" (even when described as "carnal"--1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:1ff). Thus the "church" of the Thessalonians is "in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 1:1) and their "election" is known by Paul (1 Thessalonians 1:4), while the congregation at Ephesus is said to be acquired (or purchased) by Christ's blood (Acts 20:28).

On page 116 Dr. Van Kampen recognizes some have used their knowledge of Greek as a technique to convince the listener or reader of something not found in the English text, and he vows he will not do this. On the same page he describes his "authorities" who checked everything he says about Greek words to guarantee accuracy.

A. "I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation"--Revelation 3:10

1. "keep ... from" (tereo ... ek).

Dr. Van Kampen says the Greek word translated "keep" (tereo) means, "guard, watch over or keep" (169). When coupled with "from" (ek) in this passage, he says "it carries the idea of protecting someone while he is within a sphere of danger, not that of keeping him away from the danger altogether" (175-176).

My reply: (a) In the only other place in the Greek NT where tereo and ek are used together (John 17:15), Christ prays that believers would be kept (tereo) out of or guarded from the evil (or evil one). This means protection from evil. (b) In Revelation 3:10 the promise is not to be kept merely from the testing itself but from the very hour of testing, i.e., the time when the testing occurs.

 

[JM]

Also see: APPENDIX, Miscellaneous matters: E. Dr. Van Kampen's attitude.

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/F ... cprewr.htm

 

[Vic C.]

I just have time to post this link:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 519#276519

2 posts have said, 'the wrath of Satan'

But Revelation etc shows God's wrath against sin

I don't see ant reference to this on that link. :-? Why the link?

Anyway, the Great Tribulation IS Satan's wrath against God's elect. Personally, I choose the use the word persecution.

Jason, the New Covenant to me is the forgivness of sin once and for all, throught the shed blood of Jesus, which grants me salvation. I'm not sure how this relates to PreWrath though.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus defines the tribulation begins at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week (Matthew 24:9-29). Jesus hasn't told us when the tribulation will begin (Matthew 24:36).

Ok!

This is wrong. Verse 24:36 isn't about when the Tribulation begins. I believe it is about the gathering of the elect. Jesus also is VERY specific here; he say we are not to know the day and hour. It says nothing about not knowing the general timeframe. If you take into acount the Jewish calendar, their feasts and the signs that are given to us, one can narrow down this timeframe. What we don't know for sure is the year.

Also, Jesus does tell us when the Tribulation begins. It begins right after the events prior to Matthew 24:21.

[quote:9ff58]The second seal of Revelation 6:3-4 begins at the mid-point of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27. The duration of the first seal is not mentioned in Revelation 6:1-2.

I wouldn't say that the second seal is in the middle. And I don't believe I have ever heard of anyone putting it there. I believe the 5 seal is the mid point. [/quote:9ff58]
PreWrath never teaches this. Judy is correct.

[quote:9ff58]The seals are chronological except that numbers 3, 4, and 5 are concurrent (Revelation 6:5-11). Jesus broke all the seven seals one by one instead of simultaneously. If the Prewrath rapturists believe that the seals are chronological, then there is no valid reason for them to believe that numbers 3, 4 and 5 are concurrent (i.e. exception).

Again, I have to ask where did you get the idea that the 3, 4, and 5 are concurrent? Each one is opened individually and what is within that seal is allowed to happen. [/quote:9ff58]
I'm with you Judy. This is silly. Van Kampen would never teach this. As a matter of fact, he goes into detail how scrolls of Royalty were sealed. When sealed with multiple seals, none are concurrent. You break one seal, unroll the scroll, break another seal, unroll some more, etc. He even states he has many such scrolls in his collection.

The context shows us that the wrath of God begins at the first six seals instead of the seventh. The description of "the great day of their wrath has come" clearly shows us that the wrath of God "has already come" (i.e. in perfect tense) at the first six seals instead of "will come" at the seventh seal (i.e. in future tense).

The opening seals are not God's wrath and I touched on that in a previous post. Whoever wrote this is twisting the meaning of Scripture big time. This verse and the use of "has come" is not "past tense". Besides that , the verse says "is come". KJV

[quote:9ff58]You cannot find any word in Revelation 7:9-17 which indicates that the great multitude is the raptured church and the return of Christ is happened at that time period. The return of Christ is actually mentioned in Revelation 19:11-16 (compare with Matthew 24:29-31).

I would think it would be obvious with what we have seen that before the day of the Lord there will be signs in the sun, moon and the stars. and we also know that the day of the Lord is going to be " Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it" "for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?"
And we also know that we will not suffer God's wrath. So just before God pours out His wrath (Rev.6:17), He has his angels seal the 144,000 Jews and then we see for the first time this great multitude standing before the throne praising the Lord. [/quote:9ff58]
Judy is correct. It is obvious to me. What is not obvious to me is how someone sees the church in Revelation 4:1... without speculating or allegorizing.

[quote:9ff58]If the great multitude is the raptured church, then why the apostle John could not identify them as the church?

I believe that it was one of the 24 elders who ask the question, and John answers him saying you know.. and the elder say these are those who came out of the great tribulation.

• Rev. 7:13. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
  14. I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [/*:m:9ff58]

(NAS)
[/quote:9ff58]
Excellent, good job Judy.

[quote:9ff58]Paul had taught that the Day of the LORD would not occur until the "gathering together," or rapture, had first taken place. Thus he had to establish that the Day of the LORD had not occurred in order to prove that the rapture had not yet occurred either. The Thessalonians had been taught by someone (2 Thessalonians 2:2) that this Day of the LORD had "already come," creating a contradiction with Paul's teaching of the rapture as occurring before that time. This had left them "unsettled and alarmed."

I will end this with whatever.... only because it has taken me hours to compose these two posts. And I am really tired because I had to work 11 hours today.
[/quote:9ff58]
Personally, I think PreTrib does a horrible job at interpreting this passage.
A falling away means "a falling away" That's it. It has to agree with the one and only other time apostasia is used in the Greek.

 

[Vic C.]

Also see: APPENDIX, Miscellaneous matters: E. Dr. Van Kampen's attitude.

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/F ... cprewr.htm

Attitude? I though his writings were humbling. I didn't get thyat he had an attutude at all.

LOL, I can't keep up with all this copy/pasting. I'm not sure if you are going to learn anything from all these negative critiques. I see it this way; they all jump on the "lets bash PreWrath bandwagon" because they have a lot at stake. ($$$) That's my opinion.

One more thing:

On page 116 Dr. Van Kampen recognizes some have used their knowledge of Greek as a technique to convince the listener or reader of something not found in the English text, and he vows he will not do this. On the same page he describes his "authorities" who checked everything he says about Greek words to guarantee accuracy.

A. "I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation"--Revelation 3:10

1. "keep ... from" (tereo ... ek).

Dr. Van Kampen says the Greek word translated "keep" (tereo) means, "guard, watch over or keep" (169). When coupled with "from" (ek) in this passage, he says "it carries the idea of protecting someone while he is within a sphere of danger, not that of keeping him away from the danger altogether" (175-176).

My reply: (a) In the only other place in the Greek NT where tereo and ek are used together (John 17:15), Christ prays that believers would be kept (tereo) out of or guarded from the evil (or evil one). This means protection from evil. (b) In Revelation 3:10 the promise is not to be kept merely from the testing itself but from the very hour of testing, i.e., the time when the testing occurs.

This is nit-picking. Either way, from both these points of view, some sort of protection is alluded to.

The biggest argument has always been whether or not this verse speaks of protection or removal. I choose protection.

 

[JM]

Attitude? I though his writings were humbling. I didn't get thyat he had an attutude at all.

The attitude was to the "other" pre wrath writer, that's all.

LOL, I can't keep up with all this copy/pasting. I'm not sure if you are going to learn anything from all these negative critiques. I see it this way; they all jump on the "lets bash PreWrath bandwagon" because they have a lot at stake. ($$$) That's my opinion.

I am. 8-) I read the critiques and then go to your Q & A, which has been helpful.

peace,