political revelation

[RandyK]

I looked for a section of this forum to expresss political ideas and was unable to find one, so being that I'm Pentecostal, I've chose to try to post here. I know political ideas can seem "unspiritual" and provocative. But that's not my motive. I'm just wanting to share what I think God wants me to say, and let the chips fall where they may.

I had a revelation from God, I believe, when I woke up this morning. In my country, the US, we have 2 political parties, both dominated by Christians, and yet seriously divided in terms of Christian philosophy. Since we have Christian friends, even in our church, who despise Trump and embrace the Democrat Party, I've wanted to know how this can be, when in my view Trump and the Republican Party largely embraces conservative Christian values?

And so I believe I received this simple revelation this morning, which you can either agree with or not--I'm not forcing my views on anybody here. It's just my own opinion.

In the Garden, Man chose to place his own independent choices ahead of consulting God's will on everything he chooses to do. In doing this he produced a Sin Nature, resisting God's counsel in everything he wanted to or chose to do.

But Man realized that God had not imposed on him the Tree of Life, a determination to always follow God's will and word. Man realized that it was a godly thing *not* to impose God's word on anybody, that we should allow people to make their own choices, wrong or right.

And so, the Democrat Party has embraced the notion that God's truth and God's Kingdom should not be politically imposed on anybody, allowing all religions to operate as they desire. This seemed like the godly thing to do for Christian leaders within the Democrat Party.

On the other hand, Christians within the Republican Party felt that they should lead people to follow the Christian position, the word of God, and the uncompromised moral path that all should walk. Leadership means not just witnessing, but also judging as to what is right and best for the society, instead of capitulating to minority groups that are aberrant and destructive in our society.

It really depends, in my judgment, as to whether a consensus can be reached in the society before any particular ideology or lifestyle can be imposed upon all. Tolerance of aberrant minority groups is like allowing the leaven of sin to leaven the entire society. Imposing godly values on a society largely rejecting those values is likely to bring about civil unrest and civil war.

In the Bible, Prophets were told to say things that were true even in a society that largely rejected those truths. We should not let capitulation to a society's choices cause us to compromise God's word. It is not ungodly to declare the truth or to present God's word as a witness to an ungodly society.

You can choose what political party best conforms to your idea of Christianity. But you need to take care not to compromise with values that allow corrupt minorities to poison the society with their ungodly lifestyles. My view only.

 

[jasonc]

I looked for a section of this forum to expresss political ideas and was unable to find one, so being that I'm Pentecostal, I've chose to try to post here. I know political ideas can seem "unspiritual" and provocative. But that's not my motive. I'm just wanting to share what I think God wants me to say, and let the chips fall where they may.

I had a revelation from God, I believe, when I woke up this morning. In my country, the US, we have 2 political parties, both dominated by Christians, and yet seriously divided in terms of Christian philosophy. Since we have Christian friends, even in our church, who despise Trump and embrace the Democrat Party, I've wanted to know how this can be, when in my view Trump and the Republican Party largely embraces conservative Christian values?

And so I believe I received this simple revelation this morning, which you can either agree with or not--I'm not forcing my views on anybody here. It's just my own opinion.

In the Garden, Man chose to place his own independent choices ahead of consulting God's will on everything he chooses to do. In doing this he produced a Sin Nature, resisting God's counsel in everything he wanted to or chose to do.

But Man realized that God had not imposed on him the Tree of Life, a determination to always follow God's will and word. Man realized that it was a godly thing *not* to impose God's word on anybody, that we should allow people to make their own choices, wrong or right.

And so, the Democrat Party has embraced the notion that God's truth and God's Kingdom should not be politically imposed on anybody, allowing all religions to operate as they desire. This seemed like the godly thing to do for Christian leaders within the Democrat Party.

On the other hand, Christians within the Republican Party felt that they should lead people to follow the Christian position, the word of God, and the uncompromised moral path that all should walk. Leadership means not just witnessing, but also judging as to what is right and best for the society, instead of capitulating to minority groups that are aberrant and destructive in our society.

It really depends, in my judgment, as to whether a consensus can be reached in the society before any particular ideology or lifestyle can be imposed upon all. Tolerance of aberrant minority groups is like allowing the leaven of sin to leaven the entire society. Imposing godly values on a society largely rejecting those values is likely to bring about civil unrest and civil war.

In the Bible, Prophets were told to say things that were true even in a society that largely rejected those truths. We should not let capitulation to a society's choices cause us to compromise God's word. It is not ungodly to declare the truth or to present God's word as a witness to an ungodly society.

You can choose what political party best conforms to your idea of Christianity. But you need to take care not to compromise with values that allow corrupt minorities to poison the society with their ungodly lifestyles. My view only.

The first amendment was a reaction to what churches did via the state .

Puritans banned heresy .

If you are not a Calvinist, cessationist you were to be punished .

Do you really want that ?

 

[RandyK]

The first amendment was a reaction to what churches did via the state .

Puritans banned heresy .

If you are not a Calvinist, cessationist you were to be punished .

Do you really want that ?

Are we allowed to discuss at length our political views on this forum. It's crazy--I've been on maybe 4 or 5 forums, and some place strict limits on things that can divide Christians and some moderate at a minimum. I'd be happy to discuss if we are so allowed here!

My view on "freedom of religion" is informed by the 10 Commandments--have no other gods. But I accept and obey the political authorities as they have sought to manage the society, mixed though it be.

 

[jasonc]

I looked for a section of this forum to expresss political ideas and was unable to find one, so being that I'm Pentecostal, I've chose to try to post here. I know political ideas can seem "unspiritual" and provocative. But that's not my motive. I'm just wanting to share what I think God wants me to say, and let the chips fall where they may.

I had a revelation from God, I believe, when I woke up this morning. In my country, the US, we have 2 political parties, both dominated by Christians, and yet seriously divided in terms of Christian philosophy. Since we have Christian friends, even in our church, who despise Trump and embrace the Democrat Party, I've wanted to know how this can be, when in my view Trump and the Republican Party largely embraces conservative Christian values?

And so I believe I received this simple revelation this morning, which you can either agree with or not--I'm not forcing my views on anybody here. It's just my own opinion.

In the Garden, Man chose to place his own independent choices ahead of consulting God's will on everything he chooses to do. In doing this he produced a Sin Nature, resisting God's counsel in everything he wanted to or chose to do.

But Man realized that God had not imposed on him the Tree of Life, a determination to always follow God's will and word. Man realized that it was a godly thing *not* to impose God's word on anybody, that we should allow people to make their own choices, wrong or right.

And so, the Democrat Party has embraced the notion that God's truth and God's Kingdom should not be politically imposed on anybody, allowing all religions to operate as they desire. This seemed like the godly thing to do for Christian leaders within the Democrat Party.

On the other hand, Christians within the Republican Party felt that they should lead people to follow the Christian position, the word of God, and the uncompromised moral path that all should walk. Leadership means not just witnessing, but also judging as to what is right and best for the society, instead of capitulating to minority groups that are aberrant and destructive in our society.

It really depends, in my judgment, as to whether a consensus can be reached in the society before any particular ideology or lifestyle can be imposed upon all. Tolerance of aberrant minority groups is like allowing the leaven of sin to leaven the entire society. Imposing godly values on a society largely rejecting those values is likely to bring about civil unrest and civil war.

In the Bible, Prophets were told to say things that were true even in a society that largely rejected those truths. We should not let capitulation to a society's choices cause us to compromise God's word. It is not ungodly to declare the truth or to present God's word as a witness to an ungodly society.

You can choose what political party best conforms to your idea of Christianity. But you need to take care not to compromise with values that allow corrupt minorities to poison the society with their ungodly lifestyles. My view only.

The first amendment was a reaction to what churches did via the state .

Puritans banned heresy .

If you are a Calvinist, cessationist you were to be punished .

Do you really want that

Are we allowed to discuss at length our political views on this forum. It's crazy--I've been on maybe 4 or 5 forums, and some place strict limits on things that can divide Christians and some moderate at a minimum. I'd be happy to discuss if we are so allowed here!

My view on "freedom of religion" is informed by the 10 Commandments--have no other gods. But I accept and obey the political authorities as they have sought to manage the society, mixed though it be.

So if I resist that the pastor and worship a false diety pastor can kill me.

Paul didnt tolerate sin In the church he did not have the churches kill sinners who didn't repent but removed them


That's my point .

A church can remove dissenters .censor speech .

The govt can't

 

[RandyK]

The first amendment was a reaction to what churches did via the state .

Puritans banned heresy .

If you are a Calvinist, cessationist you were to be punished .

Do you really want that

So if I resist that the pastor and worship a false diety pastor can kill me.

Paul didnt tolerate sin In the church he did not have the churches kill sinners who didn't repent but removed them


That's my point .

A church can remove dissenters .censor speech .

The govt can't

You don't believe the Govt exercises Criminal Justice? I hate to use the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" thing over much, but there are always limits to what constitutes seditious speech. The completely Christian society has signed on to the idea that sodomy is to be incarcerated or put to death. If that is the compact, to tolerate homosexual speech is to tolerate sedition and to allow civil unrest.

In a liberal Christian society such as we have now, the majority compact is with a system that allows aberrant groups like gays to speak and to act with impunity. To avoid civil unrest we must submit to that system while not actually sanctioning it or agreeing to it.

The Bill of Rights were created for a liberal Christian society to avoid war between conservative Christians and deistic Christians. It is not something Christians have to agree is the "best system in the world," because I don't believe it is. But it works in some measure out of God's interest in preserving peace in places where there is some compromise.

 

[jasonc]

You don't believe the Govt exercises Criminal Justice?

The church isnt the state

Wjy didn't Paul who could have argued that because incest occured in Corinthians that the elders there stone him


We ought not to obey man ?

Look up the temperance movement and why it failed it's called the prohibition.

If we were to execute idolatry then how many idols can they worship before death ?

We don't let murderers and rapists go free and continually rape ?

These are sins worth death

Lying .
Adultery
Fornication
Witchcraft
Idolatry
Sabatth breaking .later means no after church dinners , tempt then not
Sodomy
Murder
False witness .
Disbodiediance to parents.
There wouldn't be a world to witness to .
Heresy fits idolatry and well I mentioned what puritans did and also the colonies formed in over because of what the state church of England did .

I'm not gonna go for a theocracy that hasn't worked .in England ,king Charles is head of the church .

He appoints a bishop in Canterbury.


See 1 Corinthians 5

 

[RandyK]

The church isnt the state

In a majority Christian country, the State is a Christian State populated by Christian individuals.

Wjy didn't Paul who could have argued that because incest occured in Corinthians that the elders there stone him

Paul was a Jew and knew full well that those guilty of incest could legitimately be stoned by Jewish officials or by the population sanctioned by Jewish officials. That was in the Law of Moses, and Paul did not speak out against the principles of the Law.

We ought not to obey man ?

I don't know why you say this?

Look up the temperance movement and why it failed it's called the prohibition.

It's debatable why it failed. It may have failed because it was not a law of God. It may have failed because the society in general was not fully committed to it.

Blue laws are often the product of denominational preferences. They would not last in a pluralistic society in which different denominations have different views on matters that are more preference than doctrinal.

If we were to execute idolatry then how many idols can they worship before death ?

That's for a judicial system to decide. Tolerance can be confused with Mercy sometimes. But there has to be room for Mercy in matters that recommend it in terms of circumstances. For examle, in matters involving manslaughter there were cities of refuge under the Law.

We don't let murderers and rapists go free and continually rape ?

I'm not acting as an apologist for our country in this matter. As I said, I don't believe we have the best system in the world.

But the system can work when Christians operate it in more of the traditionally conservative Christian way. I don't consider examples of Christian failure in history to properly represent "conservative Christian tradition."

These are sins worth death

Lying .
Adultery
Fornication
Witchcraft
Idolatry
Sabatth breaking .later means no after church dinners , tempt then not
Sodomy
Murder
False witness .
Disbodiediance to parents.
There wouldn't be a world to witness to .
Heresy fits idolatry and well I mentioned what puritans did and also the colonies formed in over because of what the state church of England did .

I'm not gonna go for a theocracy that hasn't worked .in England ,king Charles is head of the church .

I don't go for theocracies that are not run properly either.

See 1 Corinthians 5

Why should I see 1 Cor 5?

 

[jasonc]

In a majority Christian country, the State is a Christian State populated by Christian individuals.

Paul was a Jew and knew full well that those guilty of incest could legitimately be stoned by Jewish officials or by the population sanctioned by Jewish officials. That was in the Law of Moses, and Paul did not speak out against the principles of the Law.

I don't know why you say this?

It's debatable why it failed. It may have failed because it was not a law of God. It may have failed because the society in general was not fully committed to it.

Blue laws are often the product of denominational preferences. They would not last in a pluralistic society in which different denominations have different views on matters that are more preference than doctrinal.

That's for a judicial system to decide. Tolerance can be confused with Mercy sometimes. But there has to be room for Mercy in matters that recommend it in terms of circumstances. For examle, in matters involving manslaughter there were cities of refuge under the Law.

I'm not acting as an apologist for our country in this matter. As I said, I don't believe we have the best system in the world.

But the system can work when Christians operate it in more of the traditionally conservative Christian way. I don't consider examples of Christian failure in history to properly represent "conservative Christian tradition."

I don't go for theocracies that are not run properly either.

Why should I see 1 Cor 5?

Because Paul didn't advocate the death of the excommunicated and even said why should I judge the outside of that church .in context he was mentioning incest .

Something even the pagans saw as vile. This didn't mean Paul was saying we shouldn't reach the lost

What is call the church to make laws to obey God or two make disciples

To judge the wicked now .

Or reach them to repentance

Manslaughter had a rule leave town before the high priest died you died .

Blue laws .my county formed because of a blue law

Might want to look up the reasons why Indian river county was formed .no movies on a Sunday yet st Lucie county had plenty and few went to church .
Even in my county where that was enforced.


Trying it again to won't make it work.

A pluralistic society isn't with your idea .

A reformed pastor would call the arniminist out Calvin had Jacobus put to death .
.

And vice versa . I don't trust the church to handle the power . In my example of blue laws .in 1925 there were these churches in city limits where I could have walked to .

St Helens , idol worshippers per the methodists and my refined type
Methodist.community church ,Lutheran ,thr Baptist church ,both white and colored .

States used religion for their piracy to gain land


See the butchering of fort Caroline by the Spaniards

The wars between and civil war of Britain with the consequences of the Irish genocide by Cromwell .

A church should not be the state and have the voice to speak out against .

SHOULD CHRISTIANS WANT A THEOCRACY?

QUESTION: In Christianity there seems to be lots of ways to look at "Separation of Church and State". In some traditions it seems they believe in a Theocra

ac3.org

 

[jasonc]

The Relationship of Church and State

God has given the power of the sword to governments and the power of the keys to churches, and intends for them to work toward the greater end of worship.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[RandyK]

Because Paul didn't advocate the death of the excommunicated and even said why should I judge the outside of that church .in context he was mentioning incest .

Paul was a Roman, but he was not part of the judicial branch of the Roman State. As a Jew he certainly advocated for the death of Stephen, who at the time he thought was a heretic.

But he did not revoke his understanding of the Law, although he had entered into a New Covenant. Later in history, when there were Christian states, there continued to be judicial proceedings involving the death penalty.

There are in the US today. The murderer of Laken Riley could've gotten the death penalty today, but received life in prison instead.

What is call the church to make laws to obey God or to make disciples

If you're a Christian called to serve on a legislature, it is to make laws, to obey God, and to make disciples.

To judge the wicked now .

Or reach them to repentance

We are to judge people now, assuming we are relying on divine guidance. Final judgment awaits sentencing at the great white throne.

Manslaughter had a rule leave town before the high priest died you died .

Yes. The point is, a person may have circumstances that render his crime a matter of negligence more than deliberate murder. These are extenuating circumstances that call for mercy.

There was no mercy for those who deliberately sin to rebel against God in perpetuity. It is their decision to make, and ours to recognize.

Blue laws .my county formed because of a blue law

;) Sorry bout that!

Might want to look up the reasons why Indian river county was formed .no movies on a Sunday yet st Lucie county had plenty and few went to church .
Even in my county where that was enforced.

Curious what state you're in?

Trying it again to won't make it work.

The Kingdom of God is coming at the 2nd Coming, and it will work in Israel, as well as in other Christian nations.

A pluralistic society isn't with your idea .

Why not?

A reformed pastor would call the arniminist out Calvin had Jacobus put to death .

Yes, there were circumstances that did not make Calvin look good. I like Calvin, but sometimes I think he was impulsive and acted prematurely and in a judgmental manner.

And vice versa . I don't trust the church to handle the power . In my example of blue laws .in 1925 there were these churches in city limits where I could have walked to .

All authority, religious and secular, has problems when it has too much power without checks and balances. But a society must have authorities regulating, managing, and ruling.

St Helens , idol worshippers per the methodists and my refined type
Methodist.community church ,Lutheran ,thr Baptist church ,both white and colored .

Not sure what you're saying here?

States used religion for their piracy to gain land

Anything can be corrupt. Ministers can be corrupt--do you want to throw out all ministers? Churches can be corrupt--do you want to throw out all churches? State authorities can be corrupt--do you want to throw out all state authorities?

See the butchering of fort Caroline by the Spaniards

You seem to think that removing religious authority in the political sphere will reform and maintain in purity secular authority. It won't.

The wars between and civil war of Britain with the consequences of the Irish genocide by Cromwell .

A church should not be the state and have the voice to speak out against .

I agree that there should be a separation between religious authorities in the Church and secular authorities in the State. But that doesn't mean that the State and the secular authorities cannot be Christian! It just means priests, pastors, and ministers cannot make political judgments except by way of "advise and consent."

 

[jasonc]

Paul was a Roman, but he was not part of the judicial branch of the Roman State. As a Jew he certainly advocated for the death of Stephen, who at the time he thought was a heretic.

But he did not revoke his understanding of the Law, although he had entered into a New Covenant. Later in history, when there were Christian states, there continued to be judicial proceedings involving the death penalty.

There are in the US today. The murderer of Laken Riley could've gotten the death penalty today, but received life in prison instead.

If you're a Christian called to serve on a legislature, it is to make laws, to obey God, and to make disciples.

We are to judge people now, assuming we are relying on divine guidance. Final judgment awaits sentencing at the great white throne.

Yes. The point is, a person may have circumstances that render his crime a matter of negligence more than deliberate murder. These are extenuating circumstances that call for mercy.

There was no mercy for those who deliberately sin to rebel against God in perpetuity. It is their decision to make, and ours to recognize.

;) Sorry bout that!

Curious what state you're in?

The Kingdom of God is coming at the 2nd Coming, and it will work in Israel, as well as in other Christian nations.

Why not?

Yes, there were circumstances that did not make Calvin look good. I like Calvin, but sometimes I think he was impulsive and acted prematurely and in a judgmental manner.

All authority, religious and secular, has problems when it has too much power without checks and balances. But a society must have authorities regulating, managing, and ruling.

Not sure what you're saying here?

Anything can be corrupt. Ministers can be corrupt--do you want to throw out all ministers? Churches can be corrupt--do you want to throw out all churches? State authorities can be corrupt--do you want to throw out all state authorities?

You seem to think that removing religious authority in the political sphere will reform and maintain in purity secular authority. It won't.

I agree that there should be a separation between religious authorities in the Church and secular authorities in the State. But that doesn't mean that the State and the secular authorities cannot be Christian! It just means priests, pastors, and ministers cannot make political judgments except by way of "advise and consent.

He didn't create a state ,why is that ?

So according to you .no sinner can vote ,own anything

Yet being that they outnumber us we ought to have them vote for us and or by conquest force that upon them


Hey homosexual,fornicator ,drug user please vote so that we can make what you do illegal .

So making a state is what the church should do
Why then did Noah not get that .I posted two articles .that didn't just state isreal.

It was God made adam and eve and there was no laws .Egypt had a pharoah who knew once he heard that Sarah was a mans wife.


Govt was there and he knew adultery was a sin and asked Abraham who Sarah was .

I know how govt ,with political connections get and all as I am an employee of a local city ,

You may be good at the job but if that mayor son is go be hired and you want that job a fight you will loose .I have just left a job where I dont know how he kept his given his ignorance and attitude and ignoring the rules .well I do .the director ,he has black mail on him.

With the church one can simply leave that ,with the state as the church good luck when they force you by arms .


I know an Odinist who post yule tide info .abhors vice and virtue is extolled .

He isn't perfect but pagans do know virtue and will go to hell but not drink ,lie etc and be good parents .
Yet deny Jesus .

I have worked full time for a church and will gladly volunteer my time but as a job ? No .never again .the pettiness ,run it like a business .


I just can't trust the well as a good chaplain and retired postal policeman said , the USPS is a govt jobs programs for felons .

He arrested plenty for theft ,scheming ,murder avd also driving violations they deal with . He had thirty years as a cop with several agencies to include several DOJ ,cid.

The military can but seldom has of late punish you for adultery and fornication. It's very political in when they did as I had a co do it and lie and cause a platoon problem and it was covered up.it is prejudicial to good order ,thus a crime .
Ncos we're getting ready if he wasn't shipped to put a bullet in his head .

I could see that coming .he played games with the enlisted . Honestly this page rightfully so banned politics because of the ugliness

I can get my full from my preferred sources of tim pool,albeirt mohler and others .my church has an ethics Sunday school class and my pastor isn't afraid to engage in culture issues

Even then there is the grey area of safety nets,health care and some regulating that isn't a core issue against the bible he doesn't take a side in the pulpit.

I have too many stories of govt employees to entrust then with soul saving ,even so called elders.

If a church goes heterical ,they eventually fold but with a govt that promotes sin etc see the school system and doe . A pastor getting tax money to preach just doesn't sit well .



.

 

[RandyK]

He didn't create a state ,why is that ?

Why didn't Paul create a State? He was an apostle--not a politiican.

So according to you .no sinner can vote ,own anything

It depends on how you define a "sinner?" If the "sinner" is a convict, doing serious time, then no, he shouldn't vote or get rich.

Yet being that they outnumber us we ought to have them vote for us and or by conquest force that upon them

So I guess you're defining "sinner" as "pagan?" If so, we will have to accept what the authority imposes upon us. That's what pagan Rome did in the time of the Apostles.

So making a state is what the church should do
Why then did Noah not get that .I posted two articles .that didn't just state isreal.

Noah was not a politician. I didn't read your two articles. You don't seem to respond to my points except to raise new issues--you don't seem to seriously consider what I'm saying. So what sense is there in pursuing what you have?

I don't think we're getting anywhere, so I'm bowing out.