Bible Study Poll on Christmas

[irishrain]

What do you think Christmas was, his birth or conception? Provide scriptures if you like.

 

[wavy]

I choose...other.

Christmas is a pagan institution adopted and peppered a bit to fit Christianity.

 

[Julian Pyke]

So what if it was. At least we are CELEBRATING Christ, (like all other days but this one just specially for him)

Birth. Christ wasn't concieved through man.

 

[wavy]

So what if it was. At least we are CELEBRATING Christ, (like all other days but this one just specially for him)

Birth. Christ wasn't concieved through man.

If we look to the Word/Scriptures, since all scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, we find that Yahweh doesn't work this way.

It can be proven in so many ways how Yahweh despises the way of the gentiles. He warns his people not to learn their ways (Jeremiah 10:2, is most clear, as well as Deuteronomy 12:29-32, Psalm 106:32-40, 1 Corinthians 10:20-21; 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, along with a multitude of others).

It's like sacrificing a pig on Yahweh's altar (if the Temple was still standing). You couldn't have given Yahweh a pig and said, "at least I'm giving you something, Yahweh". He would not have accepted it.

No way, no how. Hear a parable:

A certain woman had a husband with a favorite mug. This mug was adorned with gold and gems. Every night, the woman would bring the cup to her husband and he would fill his moneyed-up mug with alcohol; wine and beer, and he would become drunk and resort to rash, sinful conduct. After years of this behavior, the man died from a bad liver and sickness. The woman, still attracted to the decor and worth of the mug, kept his mug for herself. The woman went her way and found another man who took her to marry her. This man was a righteous man, who always loved and treated his wife with kindness. For a gift one day in return for that kindness, she presented the precious vessel to him, and told him that it was her first husband's cup and that he would sometimes drink out of it to become drunk; but she hoped he would still like it. The husband became angry, threw the cup out into the garbage, and sent his wife away from his presence, saying "What, silly woman, would make you believe I would allow this cup to even sit in dust on a shelf in my house, much less accept it to drink of it? Is our love of little more worth than the cup of a drunken sinner?" The woman was put to shame.

And now for the Hebraic principle of kal va'chomer (meaning "light and heavy"; this method of teaching is used throughout the scriptures, even by Messiah) to end this story and bring it to the point:

If an earthly, righteous husband wouldn't accept the gift of his wife that once belonged to an old, sinning husband, no matter how pleasant, rich, or decorative it seemed, how much more would Yahweh, who is in heaven and righteous above all, reject a gift from his wife that was the tool of sinners in honor to false gods, no matter how pleasant and "for the children" or "just for family time" it seemed?"

We ought to far greater seek to please Yahweh according to how he dictates in his Word, not by what we think based on our good intentions and pagans ways of worship.

 

[Georges]

I vote neither......As major biblical events happen on major Jewish feast days....the conception, birth and death of Christ are no exceptions.

The best evidence is that Jesus was concieved on Hunukkah, and born durning the Feast of Tabernacles.

Here is an article that breaks the timing down.....

http://www.hatikva.org/articles/birth-o ... ukkot.html

 

[cubedbee]

It can be proven in so many ways how Yahweh despises the way of the gentiles. He warns his people not to learn their ways (Jeremiah 10:2, is most clear, as well as Deuteronomy 12:29-32, Psalm 106:32-40, 1 Corinthians 10:20-21; 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, along with a multitude of others).

It can be proven conclusively that in Christ there is no Gentile or Jew(Gal 3:28), so as long as the practice is glorifying Christ, it does not matter to God whether the practice originated with Jew or Gentile.

 

[wavy]

It can be proven conclusively that in Christ there is no Gentile or Jew(Gal 3:28), so as long as the practice is glorifying Christ, it does not matter to God whether the practice originated with Jew or Gentile.

It is true that there is neither Jew or Gentile. This has nothing to do with conduct, however. Accepting some one regardless of biological heritage does not include accepting their ways.

And for clarification, the practices and judgments and laws Yahweh gave originated with him, not "Jews".

So, I understand why you'd say this, but it is not an argument. The bible didnt say "there is neither paganism nor Yahweh's ways".

And, Georges, you are exactly right.

 

[irishrain]

Luke 1:5 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth."

http://www.docrob.100megsfree5.com/appe ... nd179d.htm


Course of Abia is a date. 1 Chronicles 23-24 There were 24 courses, each officiated a week from Sabbath to Sabbath, and Zacharias belonged to the eighth.

"Of the course of Abia" [the eighth feast order], for this feast takes place during our June 13 through June 19 annually.

Zacharias" means "remembered of Yah". God did remember us and He sent us the Savior, Jesus the Christ. God picked this priest named Zacharias to announce the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ into this world age. Elisabeth was the daughter of a Levitical priest of the lineage of Aaron, and married this priest Zacharias. So we see that the message of the coming of the Messiah did come through the priesthood of Aaron. Aaron was the brother of Moses, and God established His priesthood through Aaron and his lineage.

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the command-ments of ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Each of them walked with God and kept all the commandments and ordinances that God gave His people under the Levitical laws.

Luke 1:7 "And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years."

Both Zacharias and Elisabeth were well along in years, far beyond the age of child bearing. Elisabeth would be a divine birth for John the Baptist.

Luke 1:8 "And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,"

Zacharias was on duty in the temple, serving the course in the order or course of Abia.
Luke 1:9 "According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the Temple of the Lord."

Luke 1:10 "And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense."

This time of the incense is the time the smoke went up. The people wanted a sign that their prayers were heard.

Luke 1:11 "And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense."

Luke 1:12 "And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him."

Luke 1:13 "But the angel said unto him, "Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John."

John in the Hebrew means "Yah's gift". Because of Zacharias and Elisabeth's age, this child would be a gift from God. So the last prophet, John the Baptist, was named by God, and given through His messenger, Gabriel.
Luke 1:14 "And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth."

Luke 1:15 "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
The word "Ghost" is added by man, for the manuscripts text reads, "Holy Spirit".
Luke 1:16 "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God."

Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before Him in the spirit and the power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for
the Lord."
Luke 1:18 "And Zacharias said unto the angel, "Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years."

Luke 1:19 "And the angel answering said unto him, "I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings."

Luke 1:20 "And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season."

Zacharias wanted a sign that the news was of God, and Gabriel gave him his sign. He struck him so that he would not speak a word until the birth came to pass.
Luke 1:22 "And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the Temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless."

Luke 1:23 "And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house."

Course of Abia, the eight of the feast days. This time of his ministration was over the evening of June 20th. Zachrias was in Jerusalem for the duty to serve the feast of Abia, but he lives thirty miles away in Nazareth of Galilee. Remember that he was an old man, and he would not walk that in one day. If he leaves the following day, he would arrive home on the 23rd of June.

Luke 1:24 "And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,"

So Elisabeth's silence would take us up to November 24th, five months later.
Luke 1:25 "Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein He looked on me, to take away my reproach among men."

Luke 1:26 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,"

Sixth month", now this marks another 30 days, and puts us at December 24th. Remember that the Jewish days starts at sundown the day prior, and runs to sundown the next day. So on the night of our 23rd, Gabriel was sent from God to Nazareth, of Galilee to the house of Mary. This visit was to inform Mary that she had been selected, special, a virgin to conceive and bear the coming Messiah. So it would be on December 25th [sundown of the 24th] that the Spirit would come and dwell with mankind. Our Lord Jesus Christ would be conceived.

Luke 1:27 "To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

Keep in mind that John the Baptist was six month already in the womb, and a well formed unborn child. So the angel Gabriel came to Mary a virgin, who was espoused to marry Joseph. We know from the lineage of Elisabeth that Mary is from the Levitical tribe, but Joseph is of the tribe of Judah.

Luke 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, "Hail, thou that art highly favored, The Lord is with thee: blessed art though among women."
Isa 7:14

Luke 1:29 "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be."

Luke 1:30 "And the angel said unto her, "Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God."

Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a Son, and shalt call His name JESUS."

His name will be called "Immanuel", which means "God with us". "Jesus" in the translation means "GODs Salvation". But to each of us personally, He shall be Savior to each of us. YHVH in the Hebrew comes from "Ehyeh `asher `ehyeh", meaning "I AM THAT I AM

Luke 1:32 "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:"

Luke 1:33 "And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end."

Luke 1:34 "Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her. "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy Thing Which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Isa 7:14,Heb 10:12

Luke 1:36 "And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."
Elisabeth is the cousin of Mary. How could Mary be a cousin to Elizabeth, a full blood Levite, and have her own parentage of the blood of Judah? We know that Mary's father was of the tribe of Judah, from the lineage given in Luke 3:23-38. However Mary's mother and Elizabeth's parent were both full blood Levites. So we see that Jesus lineage will be both of the lineage of Judah and David, as well as of Levi and Aaron. Paul even called our attention to Christ's lineage to the tribe of Aaron in Hebrews 5:6 when he said; "As He saith also in another place, "Thou art a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec." Those with spiritual eyes can see how Jesus could be of both Levi and Judah; the priest line and the king line: Or the Aaron line and of the king line of David. "Melcha" means "king, and "sedec" [Zadok] the "Just"; even in the name brings the two tribes or lineages together.

Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

Luke 1:38 "And Mary said, "Behold the hand maid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." And the angel departed from her."

Luke 1:39 "And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda;"

Mary went the same day that the angel Gabriel approached her, for this would be the day of conception. She went to her cousin Elisabeth's house.

Luke 1:40 "And entered in the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth."
Luke 1:41 "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:"
So when does the Spirit of God enter the babe? The soul and spirit of a child enters the embryo at conception; of course.

Luke 1:42 "And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."

Conception on Dec 25 with a perfection gestation born on Feast of Tabernales.

 

[wavy]

I haven't studied these claims out to see if they can be proven exclusively or not, or whether the calculations are accurate but there is one error I noted from reading your post:

Sixth month", now this marks another 30 days, and puts us at December 24th. Remember that the Jewish days starts at sundown the day prior, and runs to sundown the next day. So on the night of our 23rd, Gabriel was sent from God to Nazareth, of Galilee to the house of Mary. This visit was to inform Mary that she had been selected, special, a virgin to conceive and bear the coming Messiah. So it would be on December 25th [sundown of the 24th] that the Spirit would come and dwell with mankind. Our Lord Jesus Christ would be conceived.

So if this is the night of our 23rd when the messenger appeared, why are we applying the Jewish concept of a day to justify December 25? Our days start at midnight. We can't mix the two concepts together and try to rush ahead to get to December 25th as the day of the conception. Also, who said this event was at sundown, or at night? The text does not say. This could have been the day time. So if he appeared at night (which the text does not say) on the 23rd of December, the next day would be the 24th. So if she conceived that "night" or the next day we still do not make it to December 25th. Logic tells us that she would have conceived the day the angel appeared.

So did she conceive the day the angel appeared to her, or the next day? Because if it is the same day, he'd be conceived on the 23rd. If it is the next day you are suggesting, then it would be the 24th.

So still, this is a day short and does not make sense.

Also, who we have to take into account our concept of leap years, etc and the day can't be December 25th every year of our calendar.

Also, who said we can add the original pagan concept of Christmas trees and all the other things? And who said we should celebrate conception?

The whole concept is kind of silly (imo now, take no offense) if you are trying to justify Christmas, but maybe I'm missing something...

On the positive side, I'm interested in this Messiah lineage thing as far as Levi is concerned. I'm going to take a closer look at that.

 

[yesha]

irishrain,

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[wavy]

Elisabeth is the cousin of Mary. How could Mary be a cousin to Elizabeth, a full blood Levite, and have her own parentage of the blood of Judah? We know that Mary's father was of the tribe of Judah, from the lineage given in Luke 3:23-38. However Mary's mother and Elizabeth's parent were both full blood Levites. So we see that Jesus lineage will be both of the lineage of Judah and David, as well as of Levi and Aaron. Paul even called our attention to Christ's lineage to the tribe of Aaron in Hebrews 5:6 when he said; "As He saith also in another place, "Thou art a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec." Those with spiritual eyes can see how Jesus could be of both Levi and Judah; the priest line and the king line: Or the Aaron line and of the king line of David. "Melcha" means "king, and "sedec" [Zadok] the "Just"; even in the name brings the two tribes or lineages together.

On second thought, I do not think this holds up. I think Paul makes it clear in Hebrews that Yahshua was not of the tribe of Levi:

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of law.
Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.


Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a cancellation of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Paul would have not had to make this apologetic if it could be proven that Yahshua came from Levi. Paul makes it clear: Messiah is not from Levi and that priesthood is corrupt, so there is need for a new one.

The problem is, Moses didn't say anything about a priesthood from another tribe. So what is written by Moses that the priesthood was given to Levi needs to be set aside (but based of Torah standards; I have a thread on this: The new priesthood: does it change all Torah?).

Also, we can get into this if you want but I believe Mary's geneaology is found in Matthew and Joseph's in Luke.

 

[Georges]

Another Messianic site giving the Sukkot birth of Christ.....Read the whole thing, It will make you go Hmmmmm....I've put in bold print the most important parts...

For the free online book Jesus and the Feasts click on the link below.

http://www.hebroots.org/chap9.html#CHAP9


and an excerpt from Eddie Chumney's book "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah"

The Birth of Yeshua During Sukkot

The Scriptures seem to indicate to us that Yeshua was born during the festival season of Sukkot (Tabernacles). In fact, I believe that He was born on the Feast of Sukkot (which is Tishrei 15 on the biblical calendar, and is analogous to our September/October). With this in mind, let's look for some evidence of this in the Bible.

In Luke 1:5, Zachariah (Z'karyah) is a priest (Cohen) of the division of Abijah (Avijah). What does this mean? Israel was divided into 24 districts at the time of Yeshua. Each of these districts sent two representatives to officiate at the temple during the weeks of the year. In First Chronicles (Divery Hayamim) 24, the first division of the priests would serve in the first week of the year, which would be both in the month of Nisan and the month of Tishrei since both months begin the new year. As we saw earlier in this book, Nisan is the first month in the religious calendar set up by G-d in Exodus (Shemot) 12:2 and Tishrei is the first month of the year according to the civil calendar.


During the third week in the month of Nisan, the priests from all 24 districts would come to the temple to help during the week of Passover (Pesach). This would also be the case for the festival of Pentecost (Shavuot) and for the festival of Sukkot (Tabernacles) when all males were required to go to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) as specified by G-d in Deuteronomy (Devarim) 16:16. In First Chronicles 24:10, we see that abijah was the eighth division or course of priests. The course of abijah would minister during the tenth week of the year. Remember, the weeks of Passover and Shavuot would not be counted because all the priests were required to go to Jerusalem then. In Luke 1:9-10, we see that Zacharias is burning incense. This is done in the room of the temple known as the Holy Place. As the incense (which represents the prayers of G-d's people [Psalm (Tehillim) 141:2; Revelation 8:3-4]) is being burned by the priests in the temple, 18 special prayers are prayed. These 18 prayers would be prayed every day in the temple. One of these prayers is that Elijah (Eliyahu) would come. This is important because it was understood by the people, as G-d established, that Elijah (Eliyahu) would precede the coming of the Messiah as stated in Malachi 4:5.
These 18 special prayers would be prayed twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon. In Luke 1:11-13, the angel appeared on the right side of the altar and told Zacharias that his prayer was heard and John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist) would be born. John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist) was not literally Elijah (Eliyahu), but was of the spirit of power of Elijah (Luke 1:17).

Allowing two weeks for the laws of separation that G-d commanded in Leviticus (Vayikra) 12:5; 15:19,24-25 after going back to the house (Luke 1:23) and then going forward nine months (Sivan [tenth week] + 2 weeks + 9 months) puts the birth of John (Yochanan) during the festival of Passover (Pesach). This is an extremely important point because during the service for Passover, which is called the Passover Seder, the people are instructed by G-d to go to the door during one part of the service and look for Elijah (Eliyahu) while the Passover meal is eaten. The cup is called the cup of Elijah. The understanding of Elijah preceding the coming of the Messiah was the basis for the question in Matthew (Mattityahu) 17:10-13.

In Luke 1:26 during the sixth month of Elisabeth's (Elisheva) pregnancy, the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary (Miryam). This should have been around the twenty-fifth of Kislev, otherwise known as Chanukah. During the time of the first century, Chanukah was known as the second Sukkot. During the time of Chanukah, all of the Sukkot prayers are prayed once again. Mary's (Miryam) dialogue with the angel Gabriel is found in the Sukkot liturgy today. If you calculate from the twenty-fifth of Kislev and add eight days for the festival of Chanukah plus nine months for Mary's (Miryam) pregnancy, this will bring you around the time of the festival of Sukkot, or Tishrei 15. On Tishrei 22, known as Shemini Atzeret or the eighth day, Yeshua was circumcised (Luke 2:22-23; Leviticus [Vayikra] 12:1-3).




Other Evidences of Yeshua's Birth During Sukkot

As we have stated earlier in this chapter, the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) is called "the season of our joy" and "the feast of the nations." With this in mind, in Luke 2:10 it is written, "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings [basar in Hebrew; otherwise known as the gospel] of great joy [Sukkot is called the 'season of our joy'], which shall be to all people [Sukkot is called 'the feast of the nations']." So, we can see from this that the terminology the angel used to announce the birth of Yeshua were themes and messages associated with the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles).

In Luke 2:12, the babe (Yeshua) was wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger. The swaddling cloths were also used as wicks to light the 16 vats of oil within the court of the women during the festival of Sukkot. So, swaddling cloths are associated with the festival of Sukkot.

Notice also in Luke 2:12 that the baby Yeshua was laid in a manger. The word manger is the Greek word phatn'e. It is the same word translated as "stall" in Luke 13:15. By seeing how the word is used in Luke 13:15, we can see that the Greek word phatn'e means a place for hitching cattle. The Hebrew word for stall is marbek, which can be found in Amos 6:4 and Malachi 4:2. In Genesis (Bereishit) 33:17 it is written that Jacob journeyed to Sukkoth and made booths (the word booth in this passage is the Hebrew word sukkah; the plural is sukkot) for his cattle. So we can see from these passages how the word booth (sukkah or sukkot) was used by Jacob (Ya'akov) for his cattle in Genesis 33:17, and how the Greek word for manger or "stall," phatn'e, was also used to refer to hitching cattle in Luke 13:15. Phatn'e is the same word translated as "manger" in Luke 2:12, where Yeshua was laid at the time of His birth.
During the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles), G-d required that all male Jews come to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) (Deuteronomy [Devarim] 16:16). For this reason, the city would be overcrowded with people and would explain why Mary (Miryam) and Joseph (Yosef) could not find lodging in and around Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) (Luke 2:7). Bethlehem, the place where Yeshua was born, is only about four miles from Jerusalem.
The last evidence I will give for the birth of Yeshua during Sukkot according to the Scriptures is in Matthew (Mattityahu) 2:1. There we see that wise men come from the East to visit Yeshua. The land of the East is Babylon, where the largest Jewish population was at the time of the birth of Yeshua. These Jews were descendants from the captivity when King Nebuchadnezzar defeated Israel and took the Jews to Babylon to serve him. Babylon is referred to as the land of the East in Genesis (Bereishit) 29:1 and Judges (Shoftim) 6:3. The wise men in Matthew (Mattityahu) 2:1 were rabbis. The rabbis, also called sages, are known in Hebrew as chakamim, which means wise men. The word in Matthew (Mattityahu) 2:1 in Greek is magos, which is translated into English as "Magi." Magos in Greek is the Hebrew word ravmag. Ravmag comes from the Hebrew word rav, which means "rabbi." It should also be noted that the Greek word magos can also mean scientist, counselor, scholar, or teacher. The rabbis were scholars or teachers of the Jewish law. Yeshua was referred to as "Rabbi," or "Teacher" in John (Yochanan) 1:38,47,49; 3:2. So, we can see that the wise men were Jewish rabbis coming from Babylon to witness the birth of Yeshua.


You can accept it or not........Evidence heavily weighs toward a Sept/Oct birth.

 

[Georges]

and yet another messianic website detailing Jesus' birth at Sukkot. Can some please tell me why in the world are we not celebrating Jesus' birth in the correct season anyway? Dec 25? come on, it's a pagan holiday from it's inception.....do the research people....Opps...I forgot, Christians can't associate Jesus with anything Jewish....can we? :

Sorry, I had a moments frustration ......it's past now....

Click on the link and scroll down to Jesus' birth....read the whole article for your own benefit.

http://www.betemunah.org/succoth.html

 

[Rick W]

Didn't David dance to the Lord in the streets while others looked down on his behavior as unrespectful? Aren't we called to praise the Lord in song? Are we to rejoice in the Lord in His coming pertaining to His birth? Many looked forward to that day and belived the prophets that "Unto us a child is born." Even John the Baptist while still in the womb reacted in the presence of the fulfilment of the promise of the coming of the Messiah. Oh yes, lift your voice in song and praise for indeed Christ has come!!

Why celebrate in december? I find it interesting the focus is on the technical aspect of the time/day and not the event. If I don't know my birthday does that mean I was never born? And yes, there are those in the world who don't know the exact day/date of their birth.

A pagan holiday? Sure, if one doesn't believe the Messiah had come I can understand the claim to denounce His birth and the day chosen to celebrate the event.

 

[Georges]

Potluck my response is in green

Didn't David dance to the Lord in the streets while others looked down on his behavior as unrespectful? Aren't we called to praise the Lord in song? Are we to rejoice in the Lord in His coming pertaining to His birth? Many looked forward to that day and belived the prophets that "Unto us a child is born." Even John the Baptist while still in the womb reacted in the presence of the fulfilment of the promise of the coming of the Messiah. Oh yes, lift your voice in song and praise for indeed Christ has come!!

Why celebrate in december? I find it interesting the focus is on the technical aspect of the time/day and not the event. If I don't know my birthday does that mean I was never born? And yes, there are those in the world who don't know the exact day/date of their birth.

Potluck....Obviously you blew through the post without reading the links provided. The timing of the event is very critical.....technically, Christmas (the birth of Christ) is a prophecy issue right? What I mean by that is.....there are over 300 prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah in the OT. Less than 100 of them are concerning his first coming. The bulk of Messianic prophecy involves the Messiah and the future Messianic Kingdom, or the event triggered by the 2nd coming.

So? Well, here is the deal. The truth and validity of the 2nd coming is proven by the complete fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the 1st coming.

God gives prophetic time tables throughout the Bible. The most dramatic time table concerning the 1st and 2nd coming of the Messiah are found in the Feast Days of Leviticus 23. These 7 Feast Days are very important events in the Jewish calendar year and are heavily prophetically in nature.
The 7 Feast days are: Passover,Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.

Very important biblical events happened on these days and the ceremonies that were performed (during each Feast day) prepared the people for the coming Messiah.

Today, for Christians, these Feast Days can be divided into 2 groups, prophecies fulfilled, and prophecies yet to be fulfilled. The first 4 Feast days have been prophetically fulfilled in the 1st coming of Messiah. The second set will be fulfilled perfectly when Messiah returns. Point being, that major biblical events happen on these Jewish Feast days.....it's pure logic to assume the birth of the Messiah would occur likewise in fashion. It is in fact proven out in the links I provided in my previous post.

and....what is the goal for every Jew and Christian? It is to make it into the physcial future Messianic Kingdom. In Judaism it is represented (timeline) by the Feast of Taberncles....Point being....Christians need to be looking at Judaism as they originally had done in order to keep the focus on the Kingdom. I honestly believe Satan has done well taking Christians minds off that future Kingdom event by using the simplest ploy of moving Jesus' birthday from Sukkot to Dec 25. Just one of many.



A pagan holiday? Sure, if one doesn't believe the Messiah had come I can understand the claim to denounce His birth and the day chosen to celebrate the event.

Denounce his birth? I'm stating fact, not denouncing Jesus' birth...Dec 25 is the birthday for the pagan deity Mithros....do the research, or if you like I'll post it for you. Why do we want to celebrate Jesus' birthday on the birthday of a pagan deity when we have a better date to celebrate it on?

Your last statement was very inappropriate, and irresponsible but typical of many Christians who have their happy boat rocked. Do the research on it...and don't just make bogus claims like that, it'll save you an apology.

 

[wavy]

Didn't David dance to the Lord in the streets while others looked down on his behavior as unrespectful?

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Aren't we called to praise the Lord in song?

Yes.

Are we to rejoice in the Lord in His coming pertaining to His birth?

No such scripture.

Many looked forward to that day and belived the prophets that "Unto us a child is born."

They were looking for deliverance. They were not waiting to adopt paganism to celebrate birthdays, which are actually looked down upon in Hebrew culture.

His coming was for the deliverance's sake. Not so we can celebrate the "day" of birth. And even if we did, the day would be sometime during Sukkot, not December 25th. You're looking at it from a non-Hebraic mindset.

Why celebrate in december? I find it interesting the focus is on the technical aspect of the time/day and not the event.

Wrong day, for one. But that's not even the point. The point is the pagan adoption.

A pagan holiday? Sure, if one doesn't believe the Messiah had come I can understand the claim to denounce His birth and the day chosen to celebrate the event.

Please read the words of Georges to get my response on this. I'd say exactly what he said, in addition to calling this propoganda to discredit those who are staying faithful to the scriptures and not taking our own initiative to do what we want because we don't want to let go of our ways of the world.

 

[wavy]

And there's one more thing I forgot to say.

I mean no disrespect to the person (sorry, I forgot) who said that because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Messiah, then it does not matter where a practice orginated from, but I had to say something else I should have said.

If this logic is applied to the scripture, we can be homosexual. We can also have sex changes. Why? Because the scripture says also that in Messiah there is neither male nor female.

 

[irishrain]

Wavy

Elisabeth is the cousin of Mary. How could Mary be a cousin to Elizabeth, a full blood Levite, and have her own parentage of the blood of Judah? We know that Mary's father was of the tribe of Judah, from the lineage given in Luke 3:23-38. However Mary's mother and Elizabeth's parent were both full blood Levites. So we see that Jesus lineage will be both of the lineage of Judah and David, as well as of Levi and Aaron. Paul even called our attention to Christ's lineage to the tribe of Aaron in Hebrews 5:6 when he said; "As He saith also in another place, "Thou art a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec." Those with spiritual eyes can see how Jesus could be of both Levi and Judah; the priest line and the king line: Or the Aaron line and of the king line of David. "Melcha" means "king, and "sedec" [Zadok] the "Just"; even in the name brings the two tribes or lineages together.

On second thought, I do not think this holds up. I think Paul makes
it clear in Hebrews that Yahshua was not of the tribe of Levi:

Mary's Mother lineage LEVITE
If Mary and Elizabeth were Cousins, means their mothers were sisters of Aaron.
Zacharias was a levitical priest. Could only be married to a levite.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.


Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Thre abdoption Judah (king line) Marys Father was of the tribe of Judah called Heli.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

(As was supposed)= son in LAW

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of law.
Col 2:10-17 Blood ordnances, statues was changed.

Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
tribe=Judah
Paul is speaking of the tribe of Judah here, that was to carry the scepter, the right to rule.

Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre right to rule shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be." From Judah to the second coming of Christ, this is the God given right by God to the lineage of Judah.

The Levite line was to tend the altar, where as the Judah line was to rule, and not tend the altar. The Levitical priesthood was to teach and instruct in the following of the law, and the Judah tribe was maintaining the order under that law, or the judicial aspect of the law.

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
By ABOPTION by Joseph

It is true that part of Jesus lineage was from the tribe of Judah, but Jesus also was of the lineage of Levi, through Mary's mother and father.. Jesus Christ's Father was Almighty God. When you read the lineage of Matthew 1, we see that this is the blood line of Joseph, the husband of to be of Mary, who had not one thing to do with the conception of Jesus Christ. Except in the manner by law of an adopted Son.

Hbr 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
JESUS one and the same

Hbr 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

carnal , flesh
Jesus Christ's right to the Throne came not by the command of a man's order Carnal, but by Almighty God.

Hbr 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
PSA 110:4
Psalm 110:4 "The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

[quote:fec45]Also, we can get into this if you want but I believe Mary's geneaology is found in Matthew and Joseph's in Luke.

[/quote:fec45]

Joseph's is in Matthew, Mary's in Luke 3:23-38

 

[wavy]

Could you organize your thoughts a little better?

Also, going back and forth telling who's geneaology is where is not the way to figure it out. I said we could talk about it, if you want.

 

[Rick W]

Is Jesus the prophesied Messiah?
Was He not born as predicted?
I'm no theologian with a PhD but I do understand the importance of His birth. I know he was born as promised. I know His work on the cross was also a promise fulilled. If Christmas were moved to a date more suited for the academics that'd be fine by me, as long as His birth is celebrated. That we recognise that event and the implied importance thereof is all the layman christian really needs isn't it?

There are those on these forums that don't believe Christmas should be celebrated as a christian holiday since Jesus is not believed, His birth or even His existance recognised. In short, non-believers, pagans or whatever you wish to name them. But take away the retail hoopla, take away all the shopping frenzy and there's not much left for those who don't believe Jesus was ever born. So what would be left? Would the christian still celebrate? You bet. What would the non-believer have left to celebrate? Without Christ's birth I seriously doubt there would be a Christmas in this country no matter what date you care to select.

Jesus is reason for the season.

MERRY CHRISTMAS Georges!! :x-mas: