Pope Francis ok with Same Sex Unions?

[reddogs]

This cant be right, there must be some misunderstanding, or has the Pope really done this?

"Pope suggests blessings for same-sex unions may be possible

VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis has suggested there could be ways to bless same-sex unions, responding to five conservative cardinals who challenged him to affirm church teaching on homosexuality ahead of a big meeting where LGBTQ+ Catholics are on the agenda.

The Vatican on Monday published a letter Francis wrote to the cardinals on July 11 after receiving a list of five questions, or "dubia," from them a day earlier. In it, Francis suggests that such blessings could be studied if they didn't confuse the blessing with sacramental marriage.

New Ways Ministry, which advocates for LGBTQ+ Catholics, said the letter "significantly advances" efforts to make LGBTQ+ Catholics welcomed in the church and "one big straw towards breaking the camel's back" in their marginalization."

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/03/1203170334/pope-suggests-blessings-for-same-sex-unions-may-be-possible

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/world/francis-same-sex-unions-intl-latam/index.html

The pope just opened the door to blessing same-sex couples. This nun secretly blessed one more than 15 years ago.

As Pope Francis suggests the Church may bless LGBTQ Catholics' relationships, Sister Anna Koop talks about privately blessing a friend and her partner.

www.cbsnews.com

Pope Francis signals openness to blessings for same-sex couples

Francis was responding to five conservative cardinals who asked for clarity on the issue before a major global gathering on the future of the Catholic Church begins Wednesday.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[jasonc]

Meaning what, exactly? That having desires is a bad thing? What if it's a desire to help others?


That I understand. However, forgoing all desires sounds a bit like becoming a Jedi, but without the lightsabres.

We are designed by God .

You gonna blame the golf cart maker because you can't race like a race car with it ?



And no one is saying that we must be a Vulcan or Jedi only that desires that we have should be secondary to God's will .

Case in point .my fil is dead .he was a fireman .No one remembers his service at the firestation .no one is alive that I know of that he helped now

.

The same can be said about war vets of WW1 . Try looking up service records of the dead ones you find .unless they have it out in the open .you simply won't .

Yet with God he will remember what you served and honored with him .we have this backwards notion of hyper individuality where life is about what I want .God isn't that way .

The catechism of the wcf says that the chief end of man is to enjoy God ,we were made for God. Sure not all desires are bad but we should be willing to yield our wants to God.we naturally dont.

 

[Riven]

We are designed by God .

You gonna blame the golf cart maker because you can't race like a race car with it ?

No. But if I want to try, I don't think I should be penalized for it in the here after.

And no one is saying that we must be a Vulcan or Jedi only that desires that we have should be secondary to God's will .

But how does one even know what God's will is? Islamic terrorists also believe they are doing God's will. I think it makes more sense to try to live a good life and not worry so much about it.

 

[jasonc]

No. But if I want to try, I don't think I should be penalized for it in the here after.


But how does one even know what God's will is? Islamic terrorists also believe they are doing God's will. I think it makes more sense to try to live a good life and not worry so much about it.

Because the Bible is how you know and prayer .

So in this world say on military trail I decide to build a drive a turbine powered golf cart down it?

Cops are just a holes for arresting me and the judge fining me for that even if I don't hurt anyone
?

Good life ? That varies ,I know plenty of soldiers who drank and were womanizer who think that way if themselves .

Again it's not us that decides because their is a universal moral giver who is the one who decides and tells.otherwuse their is no moral right or wrong.thus those terrorists aren't wrong .you can't argue against God logically and borrow universal moral code to judge him by

 

[Riven]

So in this world say on military trail I decide to build a drive a turbine powered golf cart down it?

Cops are just a holes for arresting me and the judge fining me for that even if I don't hurt anyone
?

No, because that's against the law. However, if I were to race a golf cart on a race track, despite the fact that the vehicle was never intended for that, I should not be punished for doing so. It would be an injustice.

Good life ? That varies ,I know plenty of soldiers who drank and were womanizer who think that way if themselves .

Well, I mean a person that isn't trying to hurt others.

Again it's not us that decides because their is a universal moral giver who is the one who decides and tells.otherwuse their is no moral right or wrong.thus those terrorists aren't wrong .you can't argue against God logically and borrow universal moral code to judge him by

But we very much did decide before Christianity ever existed. Our species has been around for quite some time. If we weren't able to use reason in the early days, we would have died out long ago.

And if our morals are based entirely on whatever God says they should be, what if God said that murder is actually a good thing? Would you start killing people or would you not? I think that's the true test of a person's morality. When you twice the dictator and let them decide for themselves what they're going to do.

 

[jasonc]

No, because that's against the law. However, if I were to race a golf cart on a race track, despite the fact that the vehicle was never intended for that, I should not be punished for doing so. It would be an injustice.


Well, I mean a person that isn't trying to hurt others.


But we very much did decide before Christianity ever existed. Our species has been around for quite some time. If we weren't able to use reason in the early days, we would have died out long ago.

And if our morals are based entirely on whatever God says they should be, what if God said that murder is actually a good thing? Would you start killing people or would you not? I think that's the true test of a person's morality. When you twice the dictator and let them decide for themselves what they're going to do.

 

[jasonc]

No, because that's against the law. However, if I were to race a golf cart on a race track, despite the fact that the vehicle was never intended for that, I should not be punished for doing so. It would be an injustice.


Well, I mean a person that isn't trying to hurt others.


But we very much did decide before Christianity ever existed. Our species has been around for quite some time. If we weren't able to use reason in the early days, we would have died out long ago.

And if our morals are based entirely on whatever God says they should be, what if God said that murder is actually a good thing? Would you start killing people or would you not? I think that's the true test of a person's morality. When you twice the dictator and let them decide for themselves what they're going to do.

When you came name a pre isrealites culture that didn't fight and kill each other .

In your view man is the Ultimate arbiter of truth .

That has never worked . The oldest recording of man includes violence . Reason. Includes a general outside of us to decide morality .again you are deciding. That God slaying those you decided are good .

I'm my premise .as its biblical the idea of indivual personal right to live at I please without concern for others or God isn't even mentioned in end constitution bill of rights in context .

You don't in God eyes have the right to worship anyone but him.

I'm not talking about that per se but that founding history was in the context of a God of the Bible not living as I see as harm free

I can submit that if want to sell human meat and those corpse are not murdered but died of natural causes you have no morals argument and there is the rare people who consent to be eaten .

That case was in Germany .harm ? No he consented .

if a child takes a knife kills himself and the parent won't or didn't stop him we call that child neglect .God sees gays as that.

Why would God make a person love another then ban them from it and if they do it .
Well the cure is to remove the colon .that by design means God didn't want that .men and hetero sexual who do that get that bacteria infection that isn't cured by antibiotics but surgery and the colon is not small but a foot section .

It was reasonable in ancient cultures to kill unwanted babies ,the elderly in some as well via suicide .

Magically reason says not murder .

That's the viking ,Chinese ,assyrio ,Romans Greek and Egyptian and Babylonian cultures.

Sorry I don't but that man will be like star trek exploring the stars with a unified earth.even then after Roddenberry trek made the federation and the Vulcan less honorable .there is that article on how star trek six was very much a movie in post modernism .just ally with the blood thirsty klingons despite how they murdered and pillaged etc .Roddenberry had his health not failed him would have killed that .

Nevermind that ds9 had the bickering and dark trek nature .telling that we don't find peace entertaining . We lust for blood and violence .

 

[Christ_empowered]

To be fair, the Catholic Church still emphasizes family community social bonds etc. in that sense approval of long lasting unions makes sense although I think it contradicts scripture and tradition…

 

[WIP]

Meaning what, exactly? That having desires is a bad thing? What if it's a desire to help others?

You honestly didn't understand what I was talking about with regard to desires in this post?

 

[Riven]

You honestly didn't understand what I was talking about with regard to desires in this post?

I didn't read that post. I suppose all I can say is, the church has to do something to increase attendance. Younger people have no interest in religion these days. Personally, I don't see the harm in women being priests. They can't do any worse than the men.

 

[jasonc]

I didn't read that post. I suppose all I can say is, the church has to do something to increase attendance. Younger people have no interest in religion these days. Personally, I don't see the harm in women being priests. They can't do any worse than the men.

So sound like the world ?

Shoot if I wanted that .I could go find some MMA ,martial arts gym and get that stuff .

I was raised on that as well.the truth isn't knowable ,all arts are the same .

If truth isn't knoweable and searchable then why am I here listening to you tell me ? Outside of the argument from zen that names mean nothing etc .by defining it you limit it .. that is another thread for hobbies as many martial arts are mixeable ,some not at all effective and need to be tossed or useful only for sports .

And plenty of female led churches ,I also attended several have low attendance.my church rents to one that does and speak Spanish only .same problem .

 

[Riven]

So sound like the world ?

Shoot if I wanted that .I could go find some MMA ,martial arts gym and get that stuff .

I was raised on that as well.the truth isn't knowable ,all arts are the same .

If truth isn't knoweable and searchable then why am I here listening to you tell me ? Outside of the argument from zen that names mean nothing etc .by defining it you limit it .. that is another thread for hobbies as many martial arts are mixeable ,some not at all effective and need to be tossed or useful only for sports .

And plenty of female led churches ,I also attended several have low attendance.my church rents to one that does and speak Spanish only .same problem .

Well, I didn't say it would work. But when your congregation is primarily made up of old folks, it spells doom for the church.

 

[jasonc]

Well, I didn't say it would work. But when your congregation is primarily made up of old folks, it spells doom for the church.

I'm well aware but again the gospel isn't gonna create mega churches all the time .

Honestly ,a man should raise his children to attend his church .sure they will move but I can point out a pre civil war church in my presbytery that goes nearly back before south Carolina as a state .it's families that founded it still attend and are buried in the cemetery.

 

[WIP]

I didn't read that post. I suppose all I can say is, the church has to do something to increase attendance. Younger people have no interest in religion these days. Personally, I don't see the harm in women being priests. They can't do any worse than the men.

What good is increased attendance if the truth is not presented? This is exactly what this Scripture speaks of.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

No. But if I want to try, I don't think I should be penalized for it in the here after.


But how does one even know what God's will is? Islamic terrorists also believe they are doing God's will. I think it makes more sense to try to live a good life and not worry so much about it.

Hi Riven,
Living a good life is indeed the necessary ingredient.
The question is: Who decides what a good life is?
Does a person even believe in God?
If he doesn't, what's the use of living a good life except for making things better right now.
How about after?
Is there an afterlife?

 

[reddogs]

Although the posters are correct in everything they're saying,
the Pope does seem, SEEM, because with him everything is vague and this is causing many problems in the CC,
to be firmly against women priests.
BUT
He might be in agreement for women Deacons.
He's a mess and is turning the staunch CC into a mess.
Happily, many Bishops are against his non-catholic t eachings and more and more are beginning to state their disapproval of him.

But he's doing what most dictators do: Get rid of those that are against policy....which, BTW, the Pope must swear to maintain church doctrine upon taking his oath as Pope.

Well, I think the Jesuit training is coming into the equation, to say the least..

 

[Riven]

Hi Riven,
Living a good life is indeed the necessary ingredient.
The question is: Who decides what a good life is?

I think that we decide. And I think we're pretty good at understanding the difference between good and bad.

Does a person even believe in God?
If he doesn't, what's the use of living a good life except for making things better right now.

Because right now might be all that we have. What's better? Thugs Christian that does good because he wants a reward in the end, or the atheist that does good knowing that it's very unlikely that he will get any kind of reward in the end?

How about after?
Is there an afterlife?

I dont know. If there is, I hope it's good for those that tried to live a good life and bad for those that lived a life full of cruelty and malice.

Of course, there's also the possibility that there is nothing after. This is obviously very scary to most people. However, I don't think there is anything to fear because all it would be is a return to what it was like before you were born. The default state, sort of speak.

Are you aware of that time before? Are you traumatized by the non-existence you experienced? Of course not, because you have no memory of it.

I find the idea of life after death to be truly frightening if any of the Abrahamic religions are true. Because then I am stripped of all agency. I can no longer decide anything for myself. I am at the mercy of an all-powerful being that can do whatever he wants with me. If the scriptures are to be believed, then all non-Christians, which make up the majority of people on earth, are condemned to an eternity of torture and everlasting torment, for which there is no escape.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that we decide. And I think we're pretty good at understanding the difference between good and bad.

I don't believe we have the capability to decide for ourselves what is good and bad.
Like the murderer --- everyone thought he was a nice fellow.

Sometimes we think we're doing good but we're really doing bad.
One of my neighbor's friends was nice enough to tell him his wife was having an affair....
so now he's without his wife and without his two children.
Things might have worked out on their own...

Sam Harris seems to think that we can know when we do good because it is what is best for the community.
I actually can agree with this.
There's only one problem,
after 2 or 3 generations all morality would be lost and the strongest would win.
The only reason it would even work at all for 2 or 3 generations is because they'd be still working on the morality given in the 10 commandments...all those do's and do not's.
After that...

Because right now might be all that we have. What's better? Thugs Christian that does good because he wants a reward in the end, or the atheist that does good knowing that it's very unlikely that he will get any kind of reward in the end?

The above question shows that you don't really understand Christianity really well.
This is OK....you may not want to understand it.
There's a lot to answer to in those 2 short sentences.
1. You don't believe in the afterlife. Do we have any proof?
What about NDE?
2. What about what Jesus taught?
Ah. But you don't believe in Jesus or in His divinity, so, of course, you pay no attention to what He stated/taught.
This would lead into what created the universe - but the convo would become toooooo long if we went down every rabbit hole.

Christians don' want to do good because they get a reward in the afterlife.
They want to do good for 2 main reasons:
1. They have a better life RIGHT NOW by following their Lord Jesus. Their teacher.
2. They know what Jesus did for them and they just love Him enough to want to do what He taught. They allow Him to be their guide.

The atheist, OTOH, could do all the good he wants to and it's very well worth it for this life, but, if there is an afterlife, it will count for nothing.
The Christian, OTOH, does the good now AND will be with God in the afterlife. I guess you could see it as a reward, I don't really think of it that way.

I guess the main question we need to answer is whether or not God exists.
If not, we have to figure out where all this stuff we see around us came from.
Science sure doesn't know.

I dont know. If there is, I hope it's good for those that tried to live a good life and bad for those that lived a life full of cruelty and malice.

Of course, there's also the possibility that there is nothing after. This is obviously very scary to most people. However, I don't think there is anything to fear because all it would be is a return to what it was like before you were born. The default state, sort of speak.

We were not anywhere before we were born.
Now we're somewhere. If there's nothing, we'll never know the difference,
if there's something then it would be good to be on the side of God.
There's a philosophical name for this, I can't think of it right now.

Are you aware of that time before? Are you traumatized by the non-existence you experienced? Of course not, because you have no memory of it.

I find the idea of life after death to be truly frightening if any of the Abrahamic religions are true.

LOL That's why it's good to figure it out!

Because then I am stripped of all agency. I can no longer decide anything for myself. I am at the mercy of an all-powerful being that can do whatever he wants with me.

Yikes! Where did you learn this?

If the scriptures are to be believed, then all non-Christians, which make up the majority of people on earth, are condemned to an eternity of torture and everlasting torment, for which there is no escape.

Yikes! Where did you learn this?

 

[Riven]

I don't believe we have the capability to decide for ourselves what is good and bad.
Like the murderer --- everyone thought he was a nice fellow.

Sometimes we think we're doing good but we're really doing bad.
One of my neighbor's friends was nice enough to tell him his wife was having an affair....
so now he's without his wife and without his two children.
Things might have worked out on their own...

Sam Harris seems to think that we can know when we do good because it is what is best for the community.
I actually can agree with this.
There's only one problem,
after 2 or 3 generations all morality would be lost and the strongest would win.
The only reason it would even work at all for 2 or 3 generations is because they'd be still working on the morality given in the 10 commandments...all those do's and do not's.
After that...

Before the ten commandments, do you think humanity never worked together for a common interest?

The above question shows that you don't really understand Christianity really well.
This is OK....you may not want to understand it.
There's a lot to answer to in those 2 short sentences.
1. You don't believe in the afterlife. Do we have any proof?
What about NDE?

We don't have any evidence that would hold up in a court of law. NDE's are interesting and I listen to therm fairly frequently. However, I began to notice that they were all very different from each other, and none of them talk about going before God in judgment.

It is entirely possible that NDE's are the hallucinations of an oxygen-deprived brain that is still active after the heart has stopped. It would explain why Christians often see Jesus and Muslims often see Mohammed in their NDE. If Jesus is God, then why are Muslims seeing someone else?

2. What about what Jesus taught?
Ah. But you don't believe in Jesus or in His divinity, so, of course, you pay no attention to what He stated/taught.

No, I do pay attention. I want to believe that it is true, but I cannot force myself to believe in something without evidence. I would be lying to myself and everyone else.

Christians don' want to do good because they get a reward in the afterlife.
They want to do good for 2 main reasons:
1. They have a better life RIGHT NOW by following their Lord Jesus. Their teacher.
2. They know what Jesus did for them and they just love Him enough to want to do what He taught. They allow Him to be their guide.

The atheist, OTOH, could do all the good he wants to and it's very well worth it for this life, but, if there is an afterlife, it will count for nothing.
The Christian, OTOH, does the good now AND will be with God in the afterlife. I guess you could see it as a reward, I don't really think of it that way.

I think it's more of a reward than going to hell for eternity. However, the fact that the atheist still gets the shaft for doing good doesn't sit well with me. He couldn't bring himself to believe something, and this is a crime worthy of eternal punishment? That isn't just, it's madness.

I guess the main question we need to answer is whether or not God exists.
If not, we have to figure out where all this stuff we see around us came from.
Science sure doesn't know.

We cannot know whether or not God exists. That's why faith is at the center of Christianity. As for the origins of the universe, it's true that we don't know where it came from or why it's here. But ignorance does not automatically mean that God created it. It could be a simulation for all we know. We all very well could be lines of code like in The Matrix movies.

When I look at the universe and the scale of it, I wonder how anyone could believe that we are special. Such that the universe was created for us or with us in mind. We are on but one planet in a universe filled with trillions of planets. Even just within our own solar system, we see planets like Mars and Mercury. Planets that have no life and seemingly no purpose. Why do "dead" planets exist at all If God were behind the creation of the universe?

We were not anywhere before we were born.
Now we're somewhere. If there's nothing, we'll never know the difference,
if there's something then it would be good to be on the side of God.
There's a philosophical name for this, I can't think of it right now.

Pascal's wager.

Yikes! Where did you learn this?

From the bible. Jesus said that the only way to the father is through him. Am I wrong?

 

[WIP]

I think it's more of a reward than going to hell for eternity. However, the fact that the atheist still gets the shaft for doing good doesn't sit well with me. He couldn't bring himself to believe something, and this is a crime worthy of eternal punishment? That isn't just, it's madness.

This is where you show your lack of understanding about what Christianity is all about.

The first step is to recognize and accept the fact that God is our Creator and Lord. Until you humble yourself and let go of your own human pride and trust Him with all your being, you will not understand.

Jesus said, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48 NKJV

We cannot earn our way to heaven by our lifestyle. That does not mean that God made it impossible. What it does mean is that because of our sinful nature, it is not possible for us to live a perfect life as God, the Creator of all things, demands. We have proven this over and over and over again. But, God in His infinite love has provided a way for us despite ourselves through His son, Jesus, as you've already noted that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6 NKJV)

We are all condemned already, all of us, unless we believe and trust in His Son, Jesus. That is the only way. God doesn't do the sending to hell. We choose to go there by not accepting the gift of His Son.

"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Words of Jesus recorded in John 3:16-18 NKJV

 

[Riven]

The first step is to recognize and accept the fact that God is our Creator and Lord. Until you humble yourself and let go of your own human pride and trust Him with all your being, you will not understand.

Well, I can't do that. I've tried several times in the past and I'm just not wired that way.