Pope So, you're not Catholic? Then you're not in true Church

[Lewis]

I just have to post this latest news from the Vatican' it's a kicker' I tell you. This kind of stuff must be exposed' because many will believe this nonsense. And Benedict XVI will have a hand in sending them to Hell.

FAITH UNDER FIRE
Pope: So, you're not Catholic? Then you're not in true Church
Benedict ignites holy war of words by stating other groups 'defective'
Posted: July 11, 2007
3:31 a.m. Eastern

© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

Pope Benedict XVI

Pope Benedict XVI has ignited controversy across the world by approving a document saying non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation.

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," said the document, reasserting the primacy of Catholicism.

It said other Christian communities such as Protestants "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" since they don't have what's known as apostolic succession – that is, the ability to trace their bishops back to the original 12 apostles of Jesus.

The document said the Orthodox church suffered from a "wound" because it did not recognize the primacy of the pope, adding the wound was "still more profound" among Protestant denominations.

It was "difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them," said the statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, purporting Roman Catholicism was "the one true Church of Christ."

"These separated churches and communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation," the document read. "In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church."

The document, formulated as five questions and answers, repeated sections of a 2000 text the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which angered Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches and did not have the "means of salvation."

The Vatican's statement, signed by American Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict June 29, the feast of Saints Peter and Paul in the Catholic faith.

Protestant leaders wasted no time attacking the statement.

"It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity," said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, a group of 75 million Protestants in more than 100 countries. "It makes us question the seriousness with which the Roman Catholic Church takes its dialogues with the reformed family and other families of the church."

Today's edition of the London Times gave the story prominence with a headline reading: "If it isn't Roman Catholic then it's not a proper Church, pope tells Christians."

Its online edition also features a messageboard where readers from all over the world are reacting to the pronouncement, including:

# The pope is being honest in saying what all right thinking Catholics believe. (Brian O Cinneide, Durban, South Africa)

# The Roman Catholic Church IS the true Church, all others are "off shoots," "break away" or denominations. (Connie, Billings, Montana)

# I guess the crux of it is that if you don't accept the pope as your leader, then the church you are in is illegitimate. This is most offensive and insincere considering the Roman Catholic Church keeps telling us that it wants to reach out to other Christian and non-Christian faiths. I would say that the Catholic Church is "not proper" for issuing this provocative article not the Christian churches. (Niki Saliba, Melbourne, Australia)

# I am embarrassed to be Catholic. I feel as if a major part of my ongoing and increasingly difficult decision to remain in the Church has been excised. The pope is going to take the Church back to a time when it was populated by only a hard-core, self-congratulatory few. I guess that will mean fewer parishes to keep open and more donations per capita. (Janet, Ohio)

# Just shows why it is almost impossible to remain a practicing Catholic. The medium is more important than the message. Do you really think Christ would think it was more important to belong to one brand of Christianity than to live by his teachings? (Maria, Sydney, Australia)

# The early Christians set a bad example for everyone. They prayed in other tongues, engaged in prophesy, laid hands on the sick, cast out demons and met in services in the catacombs. They stuck together even until death and crucifixion. They acted like they were in love with God as a result of a supernatural experience through the Holy Spirit as a result of Christ's death of redemption. Those improper Christians never did get it right with their early Church practices! (Mark, Houston, Texas)


http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=56612

 

[Lewis]

Man' oh man' he stuck his foot in his mouth with that one.

 

[thessalonian]

Man' oh man' he stuck his foot in his mouth with that one.

Do you really think we should base what we say on what peoples reaction to it?
Among Catholics or protestants? Catholis who actually follow the teachings of the Church are cheering him over it. Those who follow their own thinking would probably be best in another Church anyway. I don't really think he is to concerned about what those outside the Church think. Truth stated boldly will win the day.

By the way, there is a topic on this already.

 

[Fnerb]

Among Catholics or protestants? Catholis who actually follow the teachings of the Church are cheering him over it. Those who follow their own thinking would probably be best in another Church anyway. I don't really think he is to concerned about what those outside the Church think. Truth stated boldly will win the day.

By the way, there is a topic on this already.

I'm a "Lutheran", so I must be on my way to hell then...

 

[Justmee]

I guess I'm right behind you. I got my Christian foundation in a Methodist church but now attend a non-denom church. Is that an express bus or a slow boat to ?????

 

[thessalonian]

I'm a "Lutheran", so I must be on my way to hell then...

Not at all what the document says if you care to go to the source rather than those who malicously misinterpret it.


"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] "

Sanctification depends on truth. There would be no point in talking about sanctification if salvation were not possible in protestant churches because sanctification is not possible unless one is in grace. Down a bit more the document says:

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].

Once again he does say that they are instruments of salvation, all be it lacking in the great help of some of the sacraments such as the Eucharist. The inital post of this thread has clearly misrepresented the document. You can read it straight from the Vatican's mouth right here if you like.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... es_en.html
_________________

 

[thessalonian]

I guess I'm right behind you. I got my Christian foundation in a Methodist church but now attend a non-denom church. Is that an express bus or a slow boat to ?????

See post above.

 

[Lewis]

Thess give me a break man. He said no other church but the Catholic church' is the true church. That is one profound statement. And he just made it too.

 

[Lewis]

I'm a "Lutheran", so I must be on my way to hell then...

No the pope is the one going to Hell.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess give me a break man. He said no other church but the Catholic church' is the true church. That is one profound statement. And he just made it too.

I am not in the slightest disagreeing with that statement. It's nothing new. But the conclusions you will draw from that are mistaken. Did you read the paragraphs from the very statement that was put out by the vatican that I linkd to and quoted? Evidently not.

By the way, the Pope did not write the document.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Is the ecumenical agenda of the Vatican over? When one faith as powerful and global as Catholism says they are the only faith that is legit, I cannot help but wonder if we are heading pell-mell to the gates of the one world religion outlined in Revelation. To get right to the point, I feel that the Vatican will provide the religious infrastructure of that one world religion.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[sisterchristian]

The TRUE church is made up of Bible believing, true Born again Christians! :wink:

 

[Justmee]

The TRUE church is made up of Bible believing, true Born again Christians! :wink:

Amen Sister! preach on, rock on

 

[republitive]

The TRUE church is made up of Bible believing, true Born again Christians! :wink:

True!!! It' s sounds so simple, yet most dont' get that simple statement. :

 

[mondar]

I am not in the slightest disagreeing with that statement. It's nothing new. But the conclusions you will draw from that are mistaken. Did you read the paragraphs from the very statement that was put out by the vatican that I linkd to and quoted? Evidently not.

By the way, the Pope did not write the document.

Hello thess, I read the statement. In a way, I agree that nothing has changed in Rome. Also, I can see that the "Oriental" or eastern Catholic Churches are considered a Church (but not "the Church") because they are sacramental in their theology. So the Vatican seems to be agreeing that there is salvation outside the Roman system.

On the other hand I think he also makes it clear that this does not apply to we who are in the tradition of the reformation.

If I might cut and paste from the document you allude to....

FIFTH QUESTION

Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church†with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?

RESPONSE

According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches†in the proper sense

I think the key phrase is "constututive element of the Church." I notice the explaination that follows. The people of the reformation do not have a sacramental priesthood nor the integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery.

It seems at the bottom of the document (the part I pasted) leaves the people of the reformation out of luck. That would include most people on this BB. Few of us are sacramentalists.

Now this does not actually bother me or even offend me in any way. Also, I recognize that Rome has said those of the tradition of the reformation are anathema ever since Trent.

So you tell me, what do you think of what has been said in the 5th question.

 

[Lewis]

I am not in the slightest disagreeing with that statement. It's nothing new. But the conclusions you will draw from that are mistaken. Did you read the paragraphs from the very statement that was put out by the vatican that I linkd to and quoted? Evidently not.

By the way, the Pope did not write the document.

I am going to take a look at that link' Thess. But the pope approved it' because nothing like that' can go out the door' with out the popes John Hancock. So he had to see that document' before it left out the door. And he had to agree with it. Or it would not have got out the door' and that you can believe.

 

[thessalonian]

I am going to take a look at that link' Thess. But the pope approved it' because nothing like that' can go out the door' with out the popes John Hancock. So he had to see that document' before it left out the door. And he had to agree with it. Or it would not have got out the door' and that you can believe.

I didn't say he didn't approve it. He did. Just that everyone is attributing this to the Pope. And no everything that comes out of Rome is not rubber stamped by the pope. He agrees with it and so do I. But your post distorts it.

 

[Texasgirl]

No the pope is the one going to Hell.

Hmm. Now I would consider that statement blasphemous. Absolutely nothing to do with the pope. Everything to do with assuming a role that belongs soley to Jesus has been conferred upon yourself. I was under the impression that He alone would be our judge, and decide who goes to heaven and hell. You may want to contemplate how you will explain that statement when your opportunity arrives.

 

[Lewis]

Hmm. Now I would consider that statement blasphemous. Absolutely nothing to do with the pope. Everything to do with assuming a role that belongs soley to Jesus has been conferred upon yourself. I was under the impression that He alone would be our judge, and decide who goes to heaven and hell. You may want to contemplate how you will explain that statement when your opportunity arrives.

Because the pope does not go by Biblical doctrine. The Catholics have their own. Well let me put it this way' some of it' they do' and some of it they don't.

 

[thessalonian]

Because the pope does not go by Biblical doctrine. The Catholics have their own. Well let me put it this way' some of it' they do' and some of it they don't.

Sorry we don't go by your personal interpretations which of course are all biblical? : Some believe Eternal Security, some OSAS, some think you can loose your salvation. They contradict eachother and cant all be right. But they all know the Catholics are wrong and unbiblical. :-?