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Position on Freedom

BEACAUSE YOU IMPLY THAT GOOD WILL BECOME OF LEGALISING drugs.
No, my stance is that its an infringement on our personal liberties for the government to make substances such as drugs illegal.


so again why encourage a bad vice.do you really think people just are going to stop with pot and drugs if its for the thrill of breaking a law or that gangs who make money wont find some other black market thing?
No, people are short sited and greedy. I don't care why a person dose Drugs. Its their own personal choice, and the neither the Fed or State should have the right to tell a person what they can do outside of protected basic liberties from being infringed.

nope they will go to something else and whent that war is futile what then legalise that too? do you see the issue?
No, I don't see the issue. Because there isn't one. You are ignoring the actual issue and making up hypotheticals that show your lack the grasp of personal liberties and how property works.

people will commmit a crime anyway. encourage or legalising doesnt change the heart of those that commit crimes.
Actually its not legalizing that is the issue, its prohibition. Prohibition dosen't solve the problem, it just makes people either defacto criminals or defacto slaves to the state. Which circumvents our liberties and is against constitution amendments 1 through 5.

some might not but then again those are the ones will seek help and get off the addiction given help. that is why i stated rehab vs prison is best choice
Imprisoning people for acts against other's liberties is justified, but not for refusing to agree with your infringing on their liberties for safety.

so what next that is futile is say theft. people steal alot dont they.
Nope, we have a right to our own property. I didn't make an argument that drag wars are futile, I'm stating that its an infringement to liberty.

legalise larcarny ok, surely you see that.
Property rights again.

i dont see a bunch of homeless and poor druggies in your scenaro not causing crimes in order to get their fix. how many druggies do you know just use any drug causually and can work? few.
This dosen't deserve an answer because its just grasping to throw this farther off topic.

my wife smoked pot and spent 250 usd a month on that , i nearly left her over that. my military career could have been at stake. she quit. it didnt help her with her bi-polar just covered it up.
Sorry your wife chose a vice over her personal responsibility.
 
"Its a person's choice if they want to debilitate themselves and make themselves unable to do what they need to do."

Unless, of course, they're driving a car, or (shudder) a Semi. And folks who are stupid enough to take drugs, are generally ALSO stupid enough to drive when they're impaired.
Way I see it any substance that drastically limits ones mental capacities should be restricted to those who need it for medical reasons. This includes alcohol and pot. Any substance that creates a "voluntarily induced involuntary action" should be prohibited as it can (and often does) lead to the injury of others.

I honestly don't care if a bunch of coke heads shoot up and OD but I do care when a bunch of coke heads shoot up and then drive into a crowd of people. That is the problem.

And because Jason brought it up... Marijuana only really helps those who are on extreme medical therapies that reduce their desire to eat food (example: chemotherapy). Still there are other medications that can fix this problem but marijuana is by far the least complicating of the various possible drugs that could be used.
 
No, people are short sited and greedy. I don't care why a person dose Drugs. Its their own personal choice, and the neither the Fed or State should have the right to tell a person what they can do outside of protected basic liberties from being infringed.
.

From your opening OP, it seems like it's an anything goes sort of freedom, as long as someone else's behavior doesn't infringe on someone else's, the problem is their stupidity, addictions, acts DO infringe on others. We can't have an all out freedom of drugs for the simple fact that people on drugs are complete idiots, IF they stayed at home that would be one thing, but they don't. You legalize drugs and then what? They'll find far worse ways to get their high.

We could add polygamy to your "freedoms" and then where does that stop? I heard of a lady in europe who wanted to marry a gorilla! It's not hypothetical, you give an inch and people take a mile.

These are not freedoms, they are a scapegoat for personal responsbilities, and for lack of morals and values, imo.
 
Way I see it any substance that drastically limits ones mental capacities should be restricted to those who need it for medical reasons. This includes alcohol and pot. Any substance that creates a "voluntarily induced involuntary action" should be prohibited as it can (and often does) lead to the injury of others.

I honestly don't care if a bunch of coke heads shoot up and OD but I do care when a bunch of coke heads shoot up and then drive into a crowd of people. That is the problem.

And because Jason brought it up... Marijuana only really helps those who are on extreme medical therapies that reduce their desire to eat food (example: chemotherapy). Still there are other medications that can fix this problem but marijuana is by far the least complicating of the various possible drugs that could be used.
for the record, i am not agaisnt medical mj, but the reality is the current push is nothing but legalisation flat out. is our society that high in cancer patients and glaucoma(which you cant see to drive and have diabetes also with that)?

that is why i say treat like some want to do with pain medicine.the patient must see a doctor who then can take him off it, and only a pharmacist can prescribe, if its smoked then the patient cant drive or work.which if they are that bad they cant already.
 
From your opening OP, it seems like it's an anything goes sort of freedom, as long as someone else's behavior doesn't infringe on someone else's,
Yeah, this is how the Constitution and the Deceleration of Independence reads. United States became a haven fro those who wanted freedom from oppressive governments that wanted to/ were limiting the rites of individuals.

the problem is their stupidity, addictions, acts DO infringe on others.
How exactly. So far Jason hasn't been able to explain how, just his opinion and his wants to suppress individual liberties.

We can't have an all out freedom of drugs for the simple fact that people on drugs are complete idiots, IF they stayed at home that would be one thing, but they don't. You legalize drugs and then what?
Drugs will be legal.
They'll find far worse ways to get their high.
That dose not follow your premise. This means the problem is no longer the drugs that is the problem, but some unknown. This is actually a very bad reason to restrict liberties.

We could add polygamy to your "freedoms" and then where does that stop?
Actually, tell me how polygamy infringes on your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit to happiness.
I heard of a lady in europe who wanted to marry a gorilla! It's not hypothetical, you give an inch and people take a mile.
Now, please explain how that infringes your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

These are not freedoms, they are a scapegoat for personal responsbilities, and for lack of morals and values, imo.
Actually no these aren't scapegoats, and I don't think you understand what a scapegoat is.

A scapegoat is an issue, person, item that is used in place of the actual thing. For instance restricting liberties when it comes to drugs because there are stupid people.
You are taking away a person's responsibility because someone else did something. You are heaping a punishment on to others instead of holding the individual responsible.

You also made the morals/ values argument. You are now trying to claim that those who do drugs,polygamists, etc. don't morals/values. That is quite wrong, theri morals are just different from yours.
One person's idea, or a group dosen't rule the whole.

This country was built on personal liberties, attacking those liberties damages this nation just as much as any economical problem.
 
on rockies note on marry chimps and other primates

heres something odd,nothing new.

Activists want chimp declared a person - latimes.com
Its interesting how anyone who is either defending liberties or defends themselves in either court or an argument instantly becomes an activist.

The person wanted to take care of a chimp after its shelter burned down, but only keep the chimp if the person became a guardian.

Doesn't quite sound like a civil rights movement, just someone trying to take care of a chimp.
 
oh please, while i dont believe some of the more left idea of salt bans, but so i should just say hey to my grandkids and say use all the drugs you want and not bother to warn them of the dangers?

freedom means responsibility and just as you seem to naive want to think by avoiding the issue of reality that drug users dont act responsible. they do in large cause others problems.

my wife and bil while on pot did work, but the later with his own money could have paid for medical insurance, but hey its his right so now he had a hernia that cost the taxpayers 5 grand . but thats ok his freedom right?

so i guess that grandfather should have just died right? and then his widow since he failed to be responsible

so i guess in your world somehow poeple always do the right thing? they dont.

i guess i will ignore any man or women in accident that is their fault and is life endargment right, there fault.

freedom to drive, right? yup get hurt live with it.

that is what you are saying? somehow the free market would just let these drug users out to the curb and no one will be hurt as their freedoms will be free destroy themselves, yet somehow we all wont pay for it? no crime increase from the users and addicts that want the fix

can you honestly show me proof the given liberties drug use goes down and is there any user that can handle it honestly

SIR, ITS SOUNDS LIKE TO ME that you think and naively believe that drug use is a victimless crime? how in the world would someone with meth habit and or coke or crake habit that is unemployed and wants to fix wont commit crimes is beyond me

i knew a men who was so addict to heroine that he while hating gays would let them perform oral sex so that he could get his fix.

but hey he has hepatitis c and our govt(he is now a christian and good friend and regrets his past and he admits that some of that was also from his gang days and ptsd) pays for his treatment as he is a vet.

so what logic in the legalisation rationally can you defend your case that its all about drug users liberties to destroy themselves? that they do it alone? no one else is affected. no divorce, no kids without a parent in their lives or parents? or them commit crimes while high?
 
Its interesting how anyone who is either defending liberties or defends themselves in either court or an argument instantly becomes an activist.

The person wanted to take care of a chimp after its shelter burned down, but only keep the chimp if the person became a guardian.

Doesn't quite sound like a civil rights movement, just someone trying to take care of a chimp.
sigh that is the only place, try spain ever heard of the term used by peta to deny any meat eater rights to eat meat?speciesm.

Human rights for apes?
PETA Prime: Celebrating Kind Choices: Speciesism: Anti-Animal Bias

but be it know that i am agaisnt animal abuse big time and i like meat.

so what say you mr libertarian should it be illegal to eat meat? isnt that what we should have freedom to do yet theres a whole movement against that. big time
 
well since i have seen polygamy up front and well i guess its ok for men to treat their women like that.

some the wifes get jealous and ofte fight each other for the husbands love as perfectly describe in detail in the book of genesis.in islam wives are often discarded when the husband feels they are too old and often are ignored.

in the west that maynot happen that way but to say that somehow it will be ok with each of these multiple partners. surely the husband or wive who has a selection of multiple spouses will be the one to win. this isnt an ideal situation any christian can support as marriage in an ideal is give -give situation whereas polygamy cant be that as some will take and get more from the spouse then the others .
for what if the husband or wive likes partners a sex but likes partner b cooking better so then a fight for the wive will ensue.

surely divorce would come about not to mention the confusion over kids by this mockery. just because the constution says it ok doesnt mean we ought to do it.
 
Yeah, this is how the Constitution and the Deceleration of Independence reads. United States became a haven fro those who wanted freedom from oppressive governments that wanted to/ were limiting the rites of individuals.
Our gov't is way too big, they ARE taking our rights away, however, there does need to be laws in place for certain issues, we are a people of irresponsibilities.

How exactly. So far Jason hasn't been able to explain how, just his opinion and his wants to suppress individual liberties.
With our new awful health care system drug addiction will even more so infringe on the rights of others. Medical problems of a nation filled with heroine addicts, yes that will add to our already decreasing societal ethics. Have you ever been around an addict? How can you not know how they infringe on others? I don't have the statistic, but could get it, on how many people were killed by drunk drivers and/or drug addicts in one year, either be it by motor vehicles and/or a crazed out drug addict wiping out his entire family because he went crazy. A person could go on and on to the social implications drug addiction has caused. If you live in America, how can you not know?

Drugs will be legal. That dose not follow your premise. This means the problem is no longer the drugs that is the problem, but some unknown. This is actually a very bad reason to restrict liberties.
Of course it's not necessarily the drugs, just like a gun is not necessarily the cause of so many shootings, it's our society as a whole and how it's all about "me", self satisfaction, now we have the entitlement generation (which I am a member) coming up, they want it all w/out having to work for it, sounds like a bunch of democrats, doesn't it? :)

Actually, tell me how polygamy infringes on your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit to happiness. Now, please explain how that infringes your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
It would be a downfall of society morals and ethics, and it won't stop there. That was my point, you give people an inch and they take a mile! It won't stop with many wives, who knows where it will go, and then you would 1/2 the country related to the other 1/2, it's a social ill, one in which we do not need and should avoid at all costs.
Actually no these aren't scapegoats, and I don't think you understand what a scapegoat is.

A scapegoat is an issue, person, item that is used in place of the actual thing. For instance restricting liberties when it comes to drugs because there are stupid people.
You are taking away a person's responsibility because someone else did something. You are heaping a punishment on to others instead of holding the individual responsible.
Exactly! We already have a nation filled with people who are holding the gov't responsible for all of their mistakes! We buy homes that are incredibly overpriced and then whine and complain to the gov't to do something. It's not the gov't's fault that we can not control our credit card usage, it's a lack of personal responsibility because the gov't bails us out. It's pointing the fingers at everyone else but ourselves. And then you have people pointing fingers at the gov't and what do they do? They put into place even more laws, it's a cycle ALL because people need to grow up and take responsibility!

You also made the morals/ values argument. You are now trying to claim that those who do drugs,polygamists, etc. don't morals/values. That is quite wrong, theri morals are just different from yours.
One person's idea, or a group dosen't rule the whole.
but this country was founded with morals and ethics and that is what is wrong with our nation. People forgot there is an absolute truth, absolute morals, we have become a nation of anything goes, be it, some of these things are still illegal, it's still a go though.

This country was built on personal liberties, attacking those liberties damages this nation just as much as any economical problem.
Personal liberties with alot of morals thrown in, absolute morals, not the worldly kind of morals and ethics, ones in which it's self satisfaction at all costs, no personal responsibilities - those are worldly morals/ethics.
The country needs to get back to the basics!
 
rockie gets it the founders knew that small govt will only work if the self-governed are indeed subject to the creator that they espoused.

"we hold this truth to be self-evident that men are created equal.."

if the athiest doesnt see that part of the declaration of independence or the staments by the founders that stated that the nation must and is built on godly morals then any small govt will fail based any freedom that doest harm others.

it wont work, destroy the family per the bible one man -one wife and crime goes up and also other issues. getting the govt out of the way will then be impossible. we must live and act if there is a god in heaven who we let govern us.

in the past and some what ideally the church did give to the poor and took care of the poor and in many she still does. likewise the wealthy assisted the poor and the country citizens voluntarily listened to the church and her voice. there was no need to create laws to legalise odd ball marriages save the ban on polygamy given the mormon cult.

it was known that via the christian biblical world view that God ordianed one man one woman and what the ten commandments were. we have since deviated from that.
we also werent perfect then ie slavery and other issues.but that was redemied in the civil war as the abolistionist movement pushed for that change and the 14th amendment.
 
oh please, while i dont believe some of the more left idea of salt bans, but so i should just say hey to my grandkids and say use all the drugs you want and not bother to warn them of the dangers?
Is that what you personaly believe? You are only obligated to tell them what your truly believe. The liberty to do something dosen't mean its smart to do it.

freedom means responsibility and just as you seem to naive want to think by avoiding the issue of reality that drug users dont act responsible. they do in large cause others problems.
No, you are trying to justify taking people's liberties by taking away a person's responsibility of themselves. You want to impose your own will and opinion on others, when you do not have the authority to do so.

my wife and bil while on pot did work, but the later with his own money could have paid for medical insurance, but hey its his right so now he had a hernia that cost the taxpayers 5 grand . but thats ok his freedom right?
You aren't telling us something Jason. You can't just take 5 grand form the tax payers. What are you leaving out?

so i guess that grandfather should have just died right? and then his widow since he failed to be responsible
Can you explain this more?

so i guess in your world somehow poeple always do the right thing? they dont.
Never did I say people always do the right thing. You ignored both instances where I said otherwise.

i guess i will ignore any man or women in accident that is their fault and is life endargment right, there fault.
You are saying that you wouldn't stop to help someone? That is your choice after all. I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't stop, since yo seem to care for others. I'd stop myself because I like help people. I just don't like the government forcing me to. Even then, I'd still help people.

freedom to drive, right? yup get hurt live with it.
Unless you buy health insurance and vehicle insurance. Also Individuals are free to do what they wish, which includes charity.

that is what you are saying?
Not quite. It seems you have me confused with a person who follows Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. I'm a Libertarian, not an Objectivist.

somehow the free market would just let these drug users out to the curb and no one will be hurt as their freedoms will be free destroy themselves, yet somehow we all wont pay for it? no crime increase from the users and addicts that want the fix
I want you to actually explain how exactly ending the prohibition on drugs makes people automatically criminals. This did not happen when Prohibition of Alcohol was lifted. Cigarettes are becoming more expensive by the day, yet I still don't see mobs of people robbing gas stations to get their nicotine fix.

can you honestly show me proof the given liberties drug use goes down and is there any user that can handle it honestly
Why would I have to proove such things I haven't asserted?

SIR, ITS SOUNDS LIKE TO ME that you think and naively believe that drug use is a victimless crime?
Explain how an individual who dose drugs causes victims.

how in the world would someone with meth habit and or coke or crake habit that is unemployed and wants to fix wont commit crimes is beyond me
This sentence dosen't make sense.

i knew a men who was so addict to heroine that he while hating gays would let them perform oral sex so that he could get his fix.
So because he had to go to extremes to get what he wanted, we should make it harder for him to get it and punish him for wanting it?

but hey he has hepatitis c and our govt(he is now a christian and good friend and regrets his past and he admits that some of that was also from his gang days and ptsd) pays for his treatment as he is a vet.
He chose to be a gang member. He Chose to serve in the military. He chose to do heroin. No he chose to get help. Life is choices. He faced the consequences of his choice when he got Hepatitis C. At least he was a vet so he could get treatment.

so what logic in the legalisation rationally can you defend your case that its all about drug users liberties to destroy themselves?
Yes, and I'll just cut out and summarize that last part. We have to live with our own choices, and recognize how it affects other people. Its only in the darkest hours do we realize how we really want freedom and how bad we are willing to fight for it.

So far you seem to be treating me as if I don't actually care about other's when its quite the opposite. I have a real love for others and a real concern for my family and friends. I don't need the government to tell me to be concerned, or to tell me something is bad and scary. People do things because they are short sited, but that still dose not justify in the infringement of liberty.

You are calling me naive because I give other's a choice, and I'm calling you naive because you want to take a person's choice away. Only one of us is trying to go against Ben on this subject.
 
on rockies note on marry chimps and other primates

heres something odd,nothing new.

Activists want chimp declared a person - latimes.com

Thanks Jason, I had heard about this before. It appears to be all legite, it appears to be "the right thing to do", this good samaritan wants to save the chimp, but we need to think beyond this article! What are the implications of making this chimp a person? What will happen in the future because of this one "good" act?

It will not stop with this one chimp, it'll continue on and on, there has got to be guidelines set, if there is not, people will not only toe the line, they will go cross the line and run at full speed to who knows where.
 
sigh i love how you libertarians think but what logic does it say that we should have liberties to harm ourselves in the constution.

common sense. buddy. you cant claim that they will do what you say if its legal and just use them alone and never harm others. its foolish.

sigh i even know your argument. portugal buddy.

my bil had the hospital pay for that is publically funded per the medicare act of 1968 when an indigent cant pay for his or her healthcare the state will pay for it and the facility must treat them if they take medicare. that is what he did. he wanted one year while working

no people wont act responsiblely if they did no need for laws.
no need for any govt right.

anger issues, let them kill, they govt shouldnt interfere with his right to act on anger he should learn to containt that rage.

see where i can go with your drug logic?

back then they didnt have cops so be consistent to the constution of 1789.

vote for the removal of the doj and or also any leos.

people can police their neigbors, per the second amendment given in the original context.

the first gun ban was at the ok corral in arizona per wyatt erp.
 
funny that you didnt mind paying for that vets treatment considering that it cost for the cure an 1100 a month till it goes away or his liver is replaced. so the govt doenst have the right to deny treatment to those that do this to themselves(no body made him do that) just pay for it because he is a vet.


with legalisation comes responsibility therefore if said feds or locals cant punish him or them for the stupidity nor should we taxpayers pay for him.

let him die or have family for it.

no then i am glad that he was treated but its odd to say what you say and then state glad it was on your dime that he was "fixed" do you have the time and wherewithal to stop all druggies that will go the same route?

hep c can also affect innocents those that use the toilet after him or her, recieve blood, or have sex.

he like me because of lifes choices cant give blood ever(though i have never had any issues with my blood no aids or any stds)

he wasnt even in country when he contracted that. he was a civilain when that happened, per bush the va opened to all vets and it doesnt have to be any service related issues unlike before.

so answer me why should we all pay for these vets and users on the dole without any legal recourse?liberty?

if they are responsible then act foolish then they should not be treated right?
 
Our gov't is way too big, they ARE taking our rights away, however, there does need to be laws in place for certain issues, we are a people of irresponsibilities.
I agree with you on this.

With our new awful health care system drug addiction will even more so infringe on the rights of others.
Healthcare didn't change, only insurance. I actually disagree with allot of what happened with that legislation.
Medical problems of a nation filled with heroine addicts, yes that will add to our already decreasing societal ethics.
We are not a nation of heroin addicts. That is the key. Having the freedom to do something, dose not mean people want to do it as a whole. There are those who would want to do heroin, and that should be their choice because until they actually violate a person's liberties, they are not the problem. They could have a problem though. That is a different issues.

Have you ever been around an addict? How can you not know how they infringe on others? I don't have the statistic, but could get it, on how many people were killed by drunk drivers and/or drug addicts in one year, either be it by motor vehicles and/or a crazed out drug addict wiping out his entire family because he went crazy. A person could go on and on to the social implications drug addiction has caused. If you live in America, how can you not know?
I am aware of what people can do, but I consider the acts a person dose under drugs differently then the drugs themselves. If a person goes crazy from doing drugs, the acts they do should be punishable, but banning the substance dosen't curve the actual problem.
People drink and do drugs, but they do not constantly cause massive harm. People snap, people push limits, but in the end the consequences end up being faced. Banning a substances dose not make the crime go down, because if a person is determined enough, the legality of the situation dose not matter.

Of course it's not necessarily the drugs, just like a gun is not necessarily the cause of so many shootings, it's our society as a whole and how it's all about "me", self satisfaction, now we have the entitlement generation (which I am a member) coming up, they want it all w/out having to work for it, sounds like a bunch of democrats, doesn't it? :)
That was funny. :). I do want to point out that every generation thinks the generation after them is worse. Its not that a generation is worse, its a part of growing up. A person has to learn the value of their work and choices. You really can't just tell someone that something is valuable, they have to understand. Chilldren to young adults have to go through life and learn. Some learn faster then others.

Think about it this way. In the 60's many people did drugs, went to war, and defied their parents. Now most of them are adults that work or are starting to enter their golden years. Most people grow up, it just takes some life experience. to get them there.

It would be a downfall of society morals and ethics,
No it is not. Society is the sum of its people and culture. A person marrying several people dose not cause society to fall, it only shows a differen't facet of society. Societies and ethics change based both on discovery and questioning the established order. Change can be good or bad, but society is not so fragile that it can be taken down just because some people are eccentric.
and it won't stop there. That was my point, you give people an inch and they take a mile! It won't stop with many wives, who knows where it will go,
Society has to face everything based on its own merit. Life and ethics aren't easy. Some things are bad and some are good, but they have to be examined on their own. That is why the first amendment allows us the freedom of both speech and expression without censorship. This is so we can discuss and evaluated based on the merit of the individual issue. The freedom of one's own religion and/or philosophy also keeps a person from being censored just because of another person's Dogma.

and then you would 1/2 the country related to the other 1/2, it's a social ill, one in which we do not need and should avoid at all costs.
You are doing the same thing you did with the heroin example. You are taking a situation that dosen't exist as a justification to dismiss another. We are not a nation of polygamists, but we do have some in our society.
Exactly! We already have a nation filled with people who are holding the gov't responsible for all of their mistakes! We buy homes that are incredibly overpriced and then whine and complain to the gov't to do something. It's not the gov't's fault that we can not control our credit card usage, it's a lack of personal responsibility because the gov't bails us out. It's pointing the fingers at everyone else but ourselves. And then you have people pointing fingers at the gov't and what do they do? They put into place even more laws, it's a cycle ALL because people need to grow up and take responsibility!
I agree with you fully on this.

but this country was founded with morals and ethics and that is what is wrong with our nation. People forgot there is an absolute truth, absolute morals, we have become a nation of anything goes, be it, some of these things are still illegal, it's still a go though.
The United States was founded on some Ethics and Morals, but they are not absolute. The founders weren't divine, so it is our duty to question what they established. At one time Black people where not considered real people in the United States. It was with the questioning of long held truths and morals that this was eventually corrected. It is our job as the people of the United States to constantly question and evaluate what the this nation is and what it stands for.

Personal liberties with alot of morals thrown in, absolute morals, not the worldly kind of morals and ethics, ones in which it's self satisfaction at all costs, no personal responsibilities - those are worldly morals/ethics.
No I disagree with your definition of worldly morals and Absolute morals. It is because of your definition that the right to Pursue happiness is demoted to a worldly moral because it can become self serving and so dose Liberty.

The Deceleration of Independence was actually a rebellion against preconceived absolute morals of the day were.
The country needs to get back to the basics!
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness. Though I would like to not go back to the time when Anglo Saxon white male protestants where the only people who had power.
 
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That is basically all I could do when I read your last 2 posts. I tried to explain my position, but it seems you just will keep on ignoring it. I'm done repeating myself when its been stated several times now. I think I'll stop wasting my time. Since you don't value what I seem to be saying on the subject anyway.

I guess some people are just to emotional/ stubborn to read what the person they are conversing with is actually saying. :)
 
That is basically all I could do when I read your last 2 posts. I tried to explain my position, but it seems you just will keep on ignoring it. I'm done repeating myself when its been stated several times now. I think I'll stop wasting my time. Since you don't value what I seem to be saying on the subject anyway.

I guess some people are just to emotional/ stubborn to read what the person they are conversing with is actually saying. :)
:chin

The classic "I'm-not-mature-enough-to-realize-that-other-people-have-other-opinions-and-so-I-shall-thusly-conclude-that-they-are-just-ignoring-me" argument. I have not seen that one pulled out in over a week! :lol
 
rockie gets it the founders knew that small govt will only work if the self-governed are indeed subject to the creator that they espoused.
Actually it was how the people must be vigilant to not allow tyrants to control them, and to not mistake the promise of safety in return for their rights.

"we hold this truth to be self-evident that men are created equal.."
And are endowed by their creator to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

if the athiest doesnt see that part of the declaration of independence or the staments by the founders that stated that the nation must and is built on godly morals then any small govt will fail based any freedom that doest harm others.
An atheist is free with in those very words to deny the very existence of God, because God gave that person the right to do so. It also should be noted that a person is free to make statements and defend their statements against scrutiny. That is the power of our freedom. The founders where very diverse when it came to what exactly they thought the creator wanted and was absolute.

it wont work, destroy the family per the bible one man -one wife and crime goes up and also other issues. getting the govt out of the way will then be impossible. we must live and act if there is a god in heaven who we let govern us.
This statement is just opinion that needs to be defended on its own merit.

in the past and some what ideally the church did give to the poor and took care of the poor and in many she still does. likewise the wealthy assisted the poor and the country citizens voluntarily listened to the church and her voice.
There was also a high aristocracy in England that hated its poor where the poor would sell themselves into indentured servitude and had to abandon their countries out of Religious persecution. They came to America to get away form people trying to force a specific idea of absolute authority on them.

there was no need to create laws to legalise odd ball marriages save the ban on polygamy given the mormon cult.
There was also no state version of marriage offered because the tax and bureaucratic systems were no where nere what they are today.

it was known that via the christian biblical world view that God ordianed one man one woman and what the ten commandments were. we have since deviated from that.
Ah, yeah we deviated the second we had peopel of several different ideas that tossed out the idea of a God assigned absolute ruler in favor of a system where we choose our own rulers. The United states was a big middle finger to the established absolutes that was the Church of England and the Catholic Church.
we also werent perfect then ie slavery and other issues.but that was redemied in the civil war as the abolistionist movement pushed for that change and the 14th amendment.
After several centuries of both Sides using "absolute" morals to justify each other's side. Not to mention that Abe Lincoln also considered Black people to still be inferior, but saw that it didn't matter because they still deserved the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
 
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