Post-Trib Model Failure: The Attitude of The Unbelieving World

[NJBeliever]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.

Post-Trib Failure – The Attitude of the world

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Post-trib model forces its adherents to confuse events and the timing of events in the end times to make the rapture fit at the end of the 70th Week/ Great Tribulation

In Matthew 24:29-31, which Post-tribbers rely on as “rock solid proof†of the post-trib rapture, there is a clear description of the people of the world "mourning" when they see the “Sign of the Son of Man.†Now it’s my firm belief that this “sign†is the rapture itself, but for arguments sake, we do not even have to make this assumption. The point is the mood of the people at the time that Post-tribbers call “the end of the Tribulationâ€, which would be mourning by the Post-trib model.

However, when examining the Scriptures mourning is NOT what we see at the end of the Great Tribulation. The book of Revelation clearly describes the unbelieving world as angry, full of wrath and blaspheming the Lord in rebellion. There is no sadness at all.

Here is the attitude during the vials:

Revelation 16: 8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


Here is the attitude at the 6th vial:

Revelation 16: 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

And as we all know, by the time of the 7th vial, the world is now ready to go and fight God! They want to go to war with The Lord and Jesus. There is no fear. There is nothing but anger and brazen rebellion! This is clearly not mourning.
On the other hand, when we look at he beginning of the of the Great Tribulation there is indeed shock, dismay, fear and sadness.

Matthew 24: 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


The above passage is describing the rapture. However, a Post-tribber would say that this is the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the 7 Year Tribulation. If the above passage supposedly took place after 7 years of the bowls and trumpet judgment, massive earthquakes, global wars, the reign of the Antichrist, a genocide campaign against believers and Jews, mass executions and supernatural appearances left and right, how would the unbelieving world just be business as usual? Would the world not know that the judgment of God was over them?? Of course they would! For a world on the brink of Armageddon, this does not seem to make any sense at all. Especially for the post-trib model to work, the world is supposed to be in MOURNING at this time! It’s a contradiction that is required for the post-trib model to work. On one hand the world is in complete mourning, but at the same time they are eating, drinking and being merry. It does not make sense.


This calm, normal day attitude would definitely be an attitude of a world BEFORE the rapture and Great Tribulation starts. Notice Jesus said “until the day that Noe entered into the ark.†What He is describing is the world just before any Divine judgment begins. And just like the world before the flood was calm, the world before the Great Tribulation starts will be calm as well..


Listen to God describe the mood of the people once the Great Tribulation begins:

Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames..


Fear. Hearts melting. People fainting. Astonishment. This is how the world is reacting to the Day of The Lord. Not "ho hum, just another day in the neighborhood. Let's just keep eating and drinking and marrying." The Post-trib model requires that we read the Bible as saying people are calm and going about their business after 7 years of Great Tribulation and antichrist. This is just not the case.

And again, if we see the rapture taking place at the beginning of the Great Tribulation instead of the end, it makes perfect sense. And that beginning is at the 6th Seal:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The day “is come.†Again, this is the beginning of the Great Tribulation, not the end. And we see all the emotions just described.

Here are more examples:

Amos 5:16 Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.
Mourning.

Joel 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

Lamentation. Fear. Howling. Again, this is the mood and emotional state of the world at the start of the Great Tribulation. By the time Armageddon rolls around, the world is completely angry.


In conclusion, the verses that signify the mood of the people at the time of the rapture only work if the rapture takes place at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. By the time the end of the Tribulation arrives, the world is angered, cursing The Lord and ready to go to war with Him. Thus applying a post-tribulation rapture to these passages does not work and this model fails on this basis. Nothing Jesus says supports the post-trib model based on the attitude of the people as Jesus describes

 

[Scotth1960]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.

Post-Trib Failure – The Attitude of the world

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Post-trib model forces its adherents to confuse events and the timing of events in the end times to make the rapture fit at the end of the 70th Week/ Great Tribulation

In Matthew 24:29-31, which Post-tribbers rely on as “rock solid proof†of the post-trib rapture, there is a clear description of the people of the world "mourning" when they see the “Sign of the Son of Man.†Now it’s my firm belief that this “sign†is the rapture itself, but for arguments sake, we do not even have to make this assumption. The point is the mood of the people at the time that Post-tribbers call “the end of the Tribulationâ€, which would be mourning by the Post-trib model.

However, when examining the Scriptures mourning is NOT what we see at the end of the Great Tribulation. The book of Revelation clearly describes the unbelieving world as angry, full of wrath and blaspheming the Lord in rebellion. There is no sadness at all.

Here is the attitude during the vials:

Revelation 16: 8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


Here is the attitude at the 6th vial:

Revelation 16: 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

And as we all know, by the time of the 7th vial, the world is now ready to go and fight God! They want to go to war with The Lord and Jesus. There is no fear. There is nothing but anger and brazen rebellion! This is clearly not mourning.
On the other hand, when we look at he beginning of the of the Great Tribulation there is indeed shock, dismay, fear and sadness.

Matthew 24: 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


The above passage is describing the rapture. However, a Post-tribber would say that this is the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the 7 Year Tribulation. If the above passage supposedly took place after 7 years of the bowls and trumpet judgment, massive earthquakes, global wars, the reign of the Antichrist, a genocide campaign against believers and Jews, mass executions and supernatural appearances left and right, how would the unbelieving world just be business as usual? Would the world not know that the judgment of God was over them?? Of course they would! For a world on the brink of Armageddon, this does not seem to make any sense at all. Especially for the post-trib model to work, the world is supposed to be in MOURNING at this time! It’s a contradiction that is required for the post-trib model to work. On one hand the world is in complete mourning, but at the same time they are eating, drinking and being merry. It does not make sense.


This calm, normal day attitude would definitely be an attitude of a world BEFORE the rapture and Great Tribulation starts. Notice Jesus said “until the day that Noe entered into the ark.†What He is describing is the world just before any Divine judgment begins. And just like the world before the flood was calm, the world before the Great Tribulation starts will be calm as well..


Listen to God describe the mood of the people once the Great Tribulation begins:

Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames..


Fear. Hearts melting. People fainting. Astonishment. This is how the world is reacting to the Day of The Lord. Not "ho hum, just another day in the neighborhood. Let's just keep eating and drinking and marrying." The Post-trib model requires that we read the Bible as saying people are calm and going about their business after 7 years of Great Tribulation and antichrist. This is just not the case.

And again, if we see the rapture taking place at the beginning of the Great Tribulation instead of the end, it makes perfect sense. And that beginning is at the 6th Seal:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The day “is come.†Again, this is the beginning of the Great Tribulation, not the end. And we see all the emotions just described.

Here are more examples:

Amos 5:16 Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.
Mourning.

Joel 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

Lamentation. Fear. Howling. Again, this is the mood and emotional state of the world at the start of the Great Tribulation. By the time Armageddon rolls around, the world is completely angry.


In conclusion, the verses that signify the mood of the people at the time of the rapture only work if the rapture takes place at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. By the time the end of the Tribulation arrives, the world is angered, cursing The Lord and ready to go to war with Him. Thus applying a post-tribulation rapture to these passages does not work and this model fails on this basis. Nothing Jesus says supports the post-trib model based on the attitude of the people as Jesus describes

Dear NJBeliever, It is not fair to say that those who do NOT believe in the pre-tribulation rapture do not believe in God. That is UNFAIR. We should not make eschatology, views of end-times, and of bible prophecy, a TEST OF ORTHODOXY. I reject dispensationalism, premillennialism and pretribulationalism and full (complete) preterism, (hyper-preterism) and that does not make me some kind of unbeliever. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[warhorse]

I wont waist my time on your great wall of text, but your position starts with several assumptions that don't bare out under biblical scrutiny...
1) that the focus of the tribulation is Gods wrath.
2) that Gods wraith is poured out during a seven year period
3)That Rev is a flat linear timeline of the end.
4) that Danials 70th week has not been fulfilled but the other 69 weeks were.

Pre tribbers do not argue that there is not a return of the lord and a calling up on the day of the lord. They believe there is a second one prior two a final 7 year period. Post tribbers simply assert that there is only one return at the end on the DOTL.
And to support that we show that 1 cor 15, and 1 thess 4, the Rapture referances point to the DOTL.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Dear NJBeliever, It is not fair to say that those who do NOT believe in the pre-tribulation rapture do not believe in God. .... I reject dispensationalism, premillennialism and pretribulationalism and full (complete) preterism, (hyper-preterism) and that does not make me some kind of unbeliever. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

I agree... but where did NJBeliever say that?

(I read it twice, never saw where he said that, but I have had no coffee, either.)

 

[Sam21]

I would love to believe in a pre-tribulation gathering of the church but I do not because there is no pre-trib gathering of the church in the New Testament! I am amazed that any christian would try to use the bible to defend the pre-trib position because the pre-trib position demands that one deny and manipulate the word of God(not a good thing).

 

[Sam21]

Sometimes I feel agitated because the pre-trib folks resort to deception, an example is this 7 years of tribulation that they call the wrath of God. Those who believe in a post-trib rapture do not believe that it will occur at the end of 7 years of the wrath of God,that is ridiculous. We simply believe that Jesus will return to gather the church as Jesus Himself described His return to gather the church as recorded in the gospels. The tribulation that Jesus described was a time of great persecution against those who have accepted Christ as Savior,not a time of the wrath of God. Post-trib people do not believe that the church will go through the wrath of God,we believe that the church will go through the wrath of satan(tribulation)and then be gathered and then the wrath of God will be poured out.

 

[Lehigh3]

There's no such thing as a physical "rapture" Not Pretrib or Post-trib.

I see post-tribbers are correct. Christ returned post-tribulation. However, Daniel's 70 weeks are surely finished or Daniel was a false prophet.

490 years.

Hebrew transl. of Dan.9:27: ·shbuo
the·seven
And he shall confirm the
covenant with many for one
week: and in the midst of
the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the
overspreading of
abominations he shall make
[it] desolate, even until the
consummation, and that
determined shall be poured
upon the desolate.

Which I understand as the final week (70) the Messiah came & for 7 yrs. "many" entered the New Covenant. However, the middle of the week, Christ was crucified & animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple would not be honored by God- as they had the perfect sacrifice for sins.
However, we do see for those of the Old Covenant Jews who didn't accept the Christ, a 3 1/2 yr reference- or that half week, to God's wrath & tribulation upon them- until He "makes desolate"

That time, times, & a half time is seen for the great tribulation upon the Jewish world throughout the Roman Empire.

40 yrs. God gave Israel to merge with Christianity in the 1st century AD.

The apostles "sat on thrones" figuratively speaking, as judges over the 12 tribes of Israel.
That was David's fallen tent a thousand years prophetically, from Jesus' restoration & the regeneration of Israel.

 

[Hitch]

There's no such thing as a physical "rapture" Not Pretrib or Post-trib.

I see post-tribbers are correct. Christ returned post-tribulation. However, Daniel's 70 weeks are surely finished or Daniel was a false prophet.

490 years.

Hebrew transl. of Dan.9:27: ·shbuo
the·seven
And he shall confirm the
covenant with many for one
week: and in the midst of
the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the
overspreading of
abominations he shall make
[it] desolate, even until the
consummation, and that
determined shall be poured
upon the desolate.

Which I understand as the final week (70) the Messiah came & for 7 yrs. "many" entered the New Covenant. However, the middle of the week, Christ was crucified & animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple would not be honored by God- as they had the perfect sacrifice for sins.
However, we do see for those of the Old Covenant Jews who didn't accept the Christ, a 3 1/2 yr reference- or that half week, to God's wrath & tribulation upon them- until He "makes desolate"

That time, times, & a half time is seen for the great tribulation upon the Jewish world throughout the Roman Empire.

40 yrs. God gave Israel to merge with Christianity in the 1st century AD.

The apostles "sat on thrones" figuratively speaking, as judges over the 12 tribes of Israel.
That was David's fallen tent a thousand years prophetically, from Jesus' restoration & the regeneration of Israel.

I suppose you also think my Orphan Annie End Time Chart & Rapture Regulator are no good iether???

 

[warhorse]

Sometimes I feel agitated because the pre-trib folks resort to deception, an example is this 7 years of tribulation that they call the wrath of God. Those who believe in a post-trib rapture do not believe that it will occur at the end of 7 years of the wrath of God,that is ridiculous. We simply believe that Jesus will return to gather the church as Jesus Himself described His return to gather the church as recorded in the gospels. The tribulation that Jesus described was a time of great persecution against those who have accepted Christ as Savior,not a time of the wrath of God. Post-trib people do not believe that the church will go through the wrath of God,we believe that the church will go through the wrath of satan(tribulation)and then be gathered and then the wrath of God will be poured out.

Well put sam21 you and your position are correct.

 

[warhorse]

There's no such thing as a physical "rapture" Not Pretrib or Post-trib.

I see post-tribbers are correct. Christ returned post-tribulation. However, Daniel's 70 weeks are surely finished or Daniel was a false prophet.

490 years.

Hebrew transl. of Dan.9:27: ·shbuo
the·seven
And he shall confirm the
covenant with many for one
week: and in the midst of
the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the
overspreading of
abominations he shall make
[it] desolate, even until the
consummation, and that
determined shall be poured
upon the desolate.

Which I understand as the final week (70) the Messiah came & for 7 yrs. "many" entered the New Covenant. However, the middle of the week, Christ was crucified & animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple would not be honored by God- as they had the perfect sacrifice for sins.
However, we do see for those of the Old Covenant Jews who didn't accept the Christ, a 3 1/2 yr reference- or that half week, to God's wrath & tribulation upon them- until He "makes desolate"

That time, times, & a half time is seen for the great tribulation upon the Jewish world throughout the Roman Empire.

40 yrs. God gave Israel to merge with Christianity in the 1st century AD.

The apostles "sat on thrones" figuratively speaking, as judges over the 12 tribes of Israel.
That was David's fallen tent a thousand years prophetically, from Jesus' restoration & the regeneration of Israel.

Your position on Danials 70th week is correct, but both futerist and preterist have confused positions here because of the same error. Futerist say that the literal return of the lord has not occured so danials 70th week must not be complete and those events must be redone. Preterist see that Danials 70th week was completed so the return of the lord must have happened spiritually and then write off the rest of prophacy. The error in both is presuming that Danials 70th weeks was tied to the 2nd coming, it was not. It was to Danial and his peaple ( Hebrews held captive in babylon) not the fullfilment of the faith based promise of God. But the casting off of the hebrew peaple for there lack of faith.

 

[reba]

I doubt any other book could take such a beating and just keep on ticking. God's Word is so marvelously written it stays alive. Thank you Lord, for the mystery, the challenge, the conviction, the love..

 

[Lehigh3]

by warhorse,

Preterist see that Danials 70th week was completed so the return of the lord must have happened spiritually and then write off the rest of prophacy.

Well, I'm not a half-this & a half that believer. The "fullness" of the Gentiles has come in since the 1centuryAD, & those who are spiritual- can discern the things of the Spirit better than looking at Biblical prophecy with "natural" eyes. (see 1Cor.2:13)
Can you imagine someone telling you that you are too spiritual bc you understand what the Spirit is telling the churches?!!! Nonsense.

Reminds me of Kenneth Gentry- was actually an apologetic for postmillenialism. He was a "partial preterist" even though he wrote preterist books. He didn't want to give up the "futurist" part of Revelation - beyond Rev.19. - lest he would have to admit he didn't have it all right. Don K. Preston (full pret) challenged Gentry several times- but Gentry declined to debate Preston.

Gentry was caught denying scripture in Rev. which says in the prologue & epilogue- that all the things in the book must soon take place.

He magically pulled out some anti-type to the anti-type (which is in the N.T.) that anyone knows is in error. There's no anti-type after the anti-type has been fulfilled in that generation. The "type" is from the O.T.
We don't have a 2nd N.T. Mr. Gentry- so your argument that AD70 was a "type" of consummation time- & that He will come (actually would be a 3rd time.)

What say you warhorse. In Rev. 1 & 22, it is reiterated that the things in the book must soon take place. What else is there to realize from God's words there?

Does soon mean after a thousand years go by literally? Or do you twist God's plain words of imminence & say, no, "the power of the holy people" the Jews in Daniel's writings- wasn't shattered when God destroyed & left the temple made with hands?

Those who were waiting for Him - Notice it says they were waiting "for" Him. Not that they would see him (as they indeed left the city & were saved) By Christ's coming & putting down the Judaizers & antichrists (not believing He came in the flesh) of the church at that time- Christianity was given some "rest" from the Jews & scoffers' provocation.

You have to look at the prophecy with spiritual eyes. I doubt the apostles, who gave their lives for the New Covenant in Christ, expected Jesus to return physically to earth & change His mind about that material kingdom on earth. Hence, if so, wouldn't He have done that the 1st time?

 

[Hitch]

Gentry was caught denying scripture in Rev. which says in the prologue & epilogue- that all the things in the book must soon take place.

He magically pulled out some anti-type to the anti-type (which is in the N.T.) that anyone knows is in error. There's no anti-type after the anti-type has been fulfilled in that generation. The "type" is from the O.T.
We don't have a 2nd N.T. Mr. Gentry- so your argument that AD70 was a "type" of consummation time- & that He will come (actually would be a 3rd time.)

Id love to see this in the original.

 

[Lehigh3]

And I wish you could see it too, lol. View attachment 1811

 

[warhorse]

by warhorse,
Well, I'm not a half-this & a half that believer. The "fullness" of the Gentiles has come in since the 1centuryAD, & those who are spiritual- can discern the things of the Spirit better than looking at Biblical prophecy with "natural" eyes. (see 1Cor.2:13)
Can you imagine someone telling you that you are too spiritual bc you understand what the Spirit is telling the churches?!!! Nonsense.

Reminds me of Kenneth Gentry- was actually an apologetic for postmillenialism. He was a "partial preterist" even though he wrote preterist books. He didn't want to give up the "futurist" part of Revelation - beyond Rev.19. - lest he would have to admit he didn't have it all right. Don K. Preston (full pret) challenged Gentry several times- but Gentry declined to debate Preston.

Gentry was caught denying scripture in Rev. which says in the prologue & epilogue- that all the things in the book must soon take place.

He magically pulled out some anti-type to the anti-type (which is in the N.T.) that anyone knows is in error. There's no anti-type after the anti-type has been fulfilled in that generation. The "type" is from the O.T.
We don't have a 2nd N.T. Mr. Gentry- so your argument that AD70 was a "type" of consummation time- & that He will come (actually would be a 3rd time.)

What say you warhorse. In Rev. 1 & 22, it is reiterated that the things in the book must soon take place. What else is there to realize from God's words there?

Does soon mean after a thousand years go by literally? Or do you twist God's plain words of imminence & say, no, "the power of the holy people" the Jews in Daniel's writings- wasn't shattered when God destroyed & left the temple made with hands?

Those who were waiting for Him - Notice it says they were waiting "for" Him. Not that they would see him (as they indeed left the city & were saved) By Christ's coming & putting down the Judaizers & antichrists (not believing He came in the flesh) of the church at that time- Christianity was given some "rest" from the Jews & scoffers' provocation.

You have to look at the prophecy with spiritual eyes. I doubt the apostles, who gave their lives for the New Covenant in Christ, expected Jesus to return physically to earth & change His mind about that material kingdom on earth. Hence, if so, wouldn't He have done that the 1st time?

Well first that is a false statement here is every use of the word soon in revelation.
REVELATION 10
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as SOON as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
REVELATION 12
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as SOON as it was born.

Secondly Paul shows that there still remains events to take place before the return of Jesus.
1Thes1v1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

3rd no the destruction was to take place after the times of the gentiles
Luke 21v24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So far i see no evadence of an end to the time of the gentiles or the events of the heavens.

 

[Hitch]

And I wish you could see it too, lol. View attachment 2017

Is that to say you have no quotes from Gentry?

Are we getting your third party paraphrase?

 

[Lehigh3]

Yes, I know how you like ppl who do some work on their posts. lol!View attachment 1812

Kenneth Gentry's Latest Desperation | Planet Preterist

 

[Hitch]

Yes, I know how you like ppl who do some work on their posts. lol!View attachment 2018

Kenneth Gentry's Latest Desperation | Planet Preterist

So you cant quote Gentry, why not just say so?

Its weak but acceptable to use a thrid party quote but you didnt acknowledge that iether. tsk tsk:biglol

I doubt you've read Gentry, despite the implication here;

Reminds me of Kenneth Gentry- was actually an apologetic for postmillenialism. He was a "partial preterist" even though he wrote preterist books. He didn't want to give up the "futurist" part of Revelation - beyond Rev.19. - lest he would have to admit he didn't have it all right. Don K. Preston (full pret) challenged Gentry several times- but Gentry declined to debate Preston.

Gentry was caught denying scripture in Rev. which says in the prologue & epilogue- that all the things in the book must soon take place.

He magically pulled out some anti-type to the anti-type (which is in the N.T.) that anyone knows is in error. There's no anti-type after the anti-type has been fulfilled in that generation. The "type" is from the O.T.
We don't have a 2nd N.T. Mr. Gentry- so your argument that AD70 was a "type" of consummation time- & that He will come (actually would be a 3rd time.)

Emphasis added.

 

[Lehigh3]

by Hitch,

I doubt you've read Gentry, despite the implication here

We Preterists appreciate the work Gentry has done. He debated a dispy on the date of Revelation. Some Preterist books about AD70. But when I heard he writes all that but contradicts himself in the end- I wouldn't buy a post-mils book.

Have you read any of Don Preston's books, Hitch? "Who is this Babylon" is an excellent starter for understanding Revelation.

Have you read the classic "The Parousia" by James. S. Russell (1886?)

Both Russell & in modern times, Preston, received honorary doctorates for their preterist contributions to eschatology.

Or are you a dispensationalist?!!!! Lol. I'm just waiting for you to actually "say" something!

 

[Hitch]

by Hitch,
We Preterists appreciate the work Gentry has done. He debated a dispy on the date of Revelation. Some Preterist books about AD70. But when I heard he writes all that but contradicts himself in the end- I wouldn't buy a post-mils book.

your hole is deep enough already L

Have you read any of Don Preston's books, Hitch? "Who is this Babylon" is an excellent starter for understanding Revelation.

Why did you pretend to have read Gentry ? I suppose for the same reason you're hiding now, no I'd never heard of Preston untill today, which is why there are no first second or third hand criticisms of his work in my posts.

Have you read the classic "The Parousia" by James. S. Russell (1886?)

Both Russell & in modern times, Preston, received honorary doctorates for their preterist contributions to eschatology.

From?

Or are you a dispensationalist?!!!! Lol. I'm just waiting for you to actually "say" something!

Cash in some bottles and by youself a nickels worth of credibility..