Post-Trib Model Failure: The Attitude of The Unbelieving World

[Sam21]

What I find strange about the preterist view is that they take the scriptures that deal with time very literal and then take the scriptures that deal with events and make them into symbols. Most christians tend to take the scriptures dealing with the shortness of time in somewhat of a symbolic way and take the scriptures dealing with events to be literal. Since both beliefs are based on placing a meaning on something that is not exactly what is written, then why should one be better than the other? Both are not being completely truthful.
I am not preterist because I do not believe Jesus returned and gathered the saints in the first century, on the other hand, the bible does leave the impression that all would occur in the first century. The truth is that some of what Jesus said did in fact occur in the first century...BUT SOME DID NOT.

 

[warhorse]

What I find strange about the preterist view is that they take the scriptures that deal with time very literal and then take the scriptures that deal with events and make them into symbols. Most christians tend to take the scriptures dealing with the shortness of time in somewhat of a symbolic way and take the scriptures dealing with events to be literal. Since both beliefs are based on placing a meaning on something that is not exactly what is written, then why should one be better than the other? Both are not being completely truthful.
I am not preterist because I do not believe Jesus returned and gathered the saints in the first century, on the other hand, the bible does leave the impression that all would occur in the first century. The truth is that some of what Jesus said did in fact occur in the first century...BUT SOME DID NOT.

agreed, the events up to the Times of the gentiles were complete, the events from then to the day of the lord, are not.

 

[Lehigh3]

your hole is deep enough already L Why did you pretend to have read Gentry ? I suppose for the same reason you're hiding now, no I'd never heard of Preston untill today, which is why there are no first second or third hand criticisms of his work in my posts. From? Cash in some bottles and by youself a nickels worth of credibility..

Hmm. Are you a Christian then? Where are the fruits of the Spirit? Even if you haven't studied much in the area of eschatology- you should at least display some respect towards others.
You need to study eschatology & find out if we are in the end times today- or did the apostles state numerous times that the ends of the ages & the end times had come upon them?
You should go to a preterist website & order a book or 2 that isn't based on the spoon-fed doctrine that many don't even question being ridiculous fiction- but actually is based on reality & is sooo believable & in line with the Bible & history.

Besides, Islam competes with your "end times prophecies" Maybe the 12th of Imam will come out of a well too after all this time!!!

 

[Lehigh3]

by sam21,

The truth is that some of what Jesus said did in fact occur in the first century...BUT SOME DID NOT.

Hmm. And what did God say about that?
Deut.18:21-22 NKJV,
21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

And maybe the so called "fathers" missed the "nature" of His coming also. Half bc they weren't present- half bc they had a real agenda.
Just like Gentry, they denied the "imminence" that was for certain in Rev. 1 & 22.

 

[Eventide]

Any Christian who is truly born again by the incorruptible word of God knows that it is living and powerful, and not some static lifeless history book which Preterists make it out to be.

Christians need to know and understand that Preterism makes the living and powerful word of God of absolutely none effect.. it even turns it into a lie..

For example.. if the Day of the Lord has already come then the bible is a lie.. because it warns Christians in a living and powerful way (right here, right now, even this moment) that we are not to listen to those who say things like this..

Paul goes further and speaks of those who SAY that the resurrection is past already.. and that their word eats like a cancer..

This is what Preterism is.. a cancerous teaching which kills the living and powerful word of God.

 

[Lehigh3]

Wow, Tradition calls doctrines that don't agree with them to be cancerous. Maybe that backfires & what goes around comes around when one believes that! FYI- Paul wrote Tim. in the early 60's AD. He was right- the resurrection had not occurred yet. Preterists agree with the AD70 (after the millennium) resurrection of the dead. So once again I told you that your facts & dates are wrong.

Anyhoo, (from preterism.com)
Is Preterism not taking away the "blessed hope" of the believers?

Answer: Some critics have accused Preterism of taking away the hope of the believers for a future Second Coming of Christ. This accusation is as much groundless as it is built on a logical fallacy. If the Second Coming would take place today, would those same critics claim that it also robs believers of their "blessed hope?" The reality of God's presence is not something that takes away hope; it rather gives us the hope and confidence we often lack. Christians should confidently proclaim the living presence of God and of the Kingdom. They are not future realities, but they are present and they are here.

 

[reba]

It is not respectful to dodge a direct question.

 

[Eventide]

Wow, Tradition calls doctrines that don't agree with them to be cancerous.

Not tradition, but rather the living and powerful word of God calls what YOU SAY cancerous.

And it's obvious as to why.. because it does in fact make the living and powerful word of God of none effect..

Paul says that Christians should not listen to those who say these things.. because they cannot see that the word of God IS living and powerful, they think that it is some static lifeless history book..

Anyway.. any born again Christian knows that the word of God is living and powerful and effectual, because it's how each and every one was born again.

 

[Hitch]

Hmm. Are you a Christian then? Where are the fruits of the Spirit? Even if you haven't studied much in the area of eschatology- you should at least display some respect towards others.
You need to study eschatology & find out if we are in the end times today- or did the apostles state numerous times that the ends of the ages & the end times had come upon them?
You should go to a preterist website & order a book or 2 that isn't based on the spoon-fed doctrine that many don't even question being ridiculous fiction- but actually is based on reality & is sooo believable & in line with the Bible & history.

Besides, Islam competes with your "end times prophecies" Maybe the 12th of Imam will come out of a well too after all this time!!!

LOL@Lehigh

 

[Lehigh3]

by eventide,

And it's obvious as to why.. because it does in fact make the living and powerful word of God of none effect..

I'm sorry, but I do not find anything like that OBVIOUS! And what you mean is that it makes the gospel a dead work for you bc you've opined otherwise.

Even if Jesus had His second appearing, it doesn't effect what the gospel says about those having salvation in this life. So, I'm seeing that it actually makes the word of God very much alive & powerful. Have no idea where you are coming from, but that's your prerogative.

 

[NJBeliever]

1) I am not a follower of the Pre-trib model. It is also flawed under Biblical scrutiny. So I am going to decline to respond to pre-trib critiques.

2) I never said that someone who does not believe in the pre-trib model does not believe in God, especially since I personally do not believe in the validity of the pre-trib model.

3) I have yet to see someone critique the actual Scriptural application and Biblical interpretation of the OP. I would really welcome it. I came across these various critiques of the post-trib model as a result of being in Christian forums and seeing so many people advocate it. Once I looked into it deeply, I find it to be a wildly incorrect interpretation of Scripture and would welcome a Bible-based response to my assertions. God bless.

 

[Hitch]

1) I am not a follower of the Pre-trib model. It is also flawed under Biblical scrutiny. So I am going to decline to respond to pre-trib critiques.

2) I never said that someone who does not believe in the pre-trib model does not believe in God, especially since I personally do not believe in the validity of the pre-trib model.

3) I have yet to see someone critique the actual Scriptural application and Biblical interpretation of the OP. I would really welcome it. I came across these various critiques of the post-trib model as a result of being in Christian forums and seeing so many people advocate it. Once I looked into it deeply, I find it to be a wildly incorrect interpretation of Scripture and would welcome a Bible-based response to my assertions. God bless.

There is no place to start from NJ. Any 'rapture' scheme requires prior resurrection and Jesus placed the resurrection at the last day, eleminating any continuing history.

 

[Eventide]

by eventide,
I'm sorry, but I do not find anything like that OBVIOUS! And what you mean is that it makes the gospel a dead work for you bc you've opined otherwise.

No, it makes the living and powerful word of God of none effect BECAUSE of a couple reasons already stated.. (and many more of course)..

1 is that YOU SAY that the Day of the Lord has already come.. and yet the living and powerful word of God says this;

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So there's one obvious reason right here.. YOU SAY that it has come, and the word of God says that it shall not come unless there come a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed.. who should we believe.. you and your historical lifeless point of view of the word of God or what it speaks in its simplicity and truth right here, right now.. ?

2. YOU SAY that the resurrection is PAST ALREADY.. and Paul tells Christians in a living and powerful way that people WHO DO SAY these things are like a cancer..

Who should we believe.. the word of God which speaks to the hearts and minds of God's people in a 'real' living and powerful way, or should we take your lifless historical view and simply brush aside what Paul says..?

Two simple examples of how Preterists make the living word of God of none effect.. there are countless more.. practically the entire book of Revelation concerns "the things which shall be hereafter".. and that is in contrast to "the things which are".. once again, the Preterist point of view makes this all of none effect.. it becomes dead and lifeless and nothing more than any other history book in the world..

And of course the word of God is miraculous.. it's unique in that it speaks to the hearts and minds of God's people in a real living way... all the time..

I don't expect you to understand that though.. so it's pointless to go on.. my comments here are simply to warn other Christians of the cancerous teachings called Preterism.. and I'll gladly continue to reprove any pov which does make the word of God of none effect.

 

[Eventide]

There is no place to start from NJ. Any 'rapture' scheme requires prior resurrection and Jesus placed the resurrection at the last day, eleminating any continuing history.

Peter reminded to not be ignorant of this ONE THING..

That a Day with the Lord is as a thousand years.. and a lot happens in that thousand years and it's all shown to us in scripture.. Revelation shows us the time when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. it tells us of the future marriage of the Lamb, it tells us of His coming again.. it tells us that He will destroy the man of sin at His coming.. it tells us that Satan will be bound and that the nations will no longer be deceived during this time..

I can't imagine how any Christian could consider THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD (of which Satan is the god of) to be the kingdom of God.. but there are multitudes who believe this.. and one of the primary drivers for this deception is IGNORING the mystery pertaining to the restoration of ISRAEL and its false teaching that the church of God is Israel..

 

[NJBeliever]

There is no place to start from NJ. Any 'rapture' scheme requires prior resurrection and Jesus placed the resurrection at the last day, eleminating any continuing history.

These are just artificial presuppositions. If you have Scripture to offer, I'm more than willing to listen your interpretation. The same goes for any reply you have to the OP. God bless.

 

[Hitch]

Peter reminded to not be ignorant of this ONE THING..

That a Day with the Lord is as a thousand years.. and a lot happens in that thousand years and it's all shown to us in scripture.. Revelation shows us the time when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. it tells us of the future marriage of the Lamb, it tells us of His coming again.. it tells us that He will destroy the man of sin at His coming.. it tells us that Satan will be bound and that the nations will no longer be deceived during this time..

I can't imagine how any Christian could consider THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD (of which Satan is the god of) to be the kingdom of God.. but there are multitudes who believe this.. and one of the primary drivers for this deception is IGNORING the mystery pertaining to the restoration of ISRAEL and its false teaching that the church of God is Israel..

I suggest you look again at the parable of the wheat and the tares

Then if you like we can discuss who the NT describes as the decenents of Abe and heirs of the promise.

 

[Hitch]

These are just artificial presuppositions. If you have Scripture to offer, I'm more than willing to listen your interpretation. The same goes for any reply you have to the OP. God bless.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Perhaps you'll be good enough to explain the artifice here.

It should be noted that the term 'last day' appears in only two books of scripture , so its easy to compare usage.

 

[NJBeliever]

Perhaps you'll be good enough to explain the artifice here.

It should be noted that the term 'last day' appears in only two books of scripture , so its easy to compare usage.

I've responded to this in the past. This is a reference to the end time gathering of the Jews which occurs at the Second Coming. It has nothing to do with the church. Jesus is addressing Israelites here. We know this because you left out the verse when they refer to "our fathers" eating manna in the desert. This is an Israelite prophetic passage. It is further described by Jesus here.

Matthew 24: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Behold, one of the most misunderstood passages in all of church history. This passage is NOT the rapture. The rapture does not involve angels gathering the elect. It is an end time, supernatural gathering of Messianic Jews as prophesied in Deuteronomy by Moses tha takes place at the Second Coming, aka "The Last Day." I address this in much greater detail in my thread "Matthew 24:29 - "After the tribulation of those days" which I just bumped today.

So now, if you have something Scriptural to offer that address the OP, I'm all ears.

 

[Eventide]

I suggest you look again at the parable of the wheat and the tares

Then if you like we can discuss who the NT describes as the decenents of Abe and heirs of the promise.

The Parable of the wheat and the tares would be fine to discuss.

The mystery concerning the nation of Israel isn't about its physical descendents (although that too is important), it's about the partial blindness of that nation with respect to its earthly ordinances and promises in Christ, right here on earth.. and that is where the Lord will sit upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory (Matt 25), in Jerusalem which is the city of the great King. We're told that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones and will be judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.. in that DAY.. the Day of the Lord.. The Day of Jesus Christ.. which will be thousand years long..

The scriptures teach us this thematically and prophetically.. that Israel would reject their Messiah, that He would bring in the fulness of the Gentiles.. and that He would return and turn ungodliness from JACOB.. the one who was deceived into believing that the son of his old age was dead.. but learned much later in his life that he was alive and ruler over all.. JACOB.. the one who wrestled with God all night and whose name was changed to Israel in that Day when the Sun rose upon him..

It's all foretold in countless amazing ways.. but sadly so much of that is lost with the teaching of amillenialism and replacement theology..

 

[Hitch]

I've responded to this in the past. This is a reference to the end time gathering of the Jews which occurs at the Second Coming. It has nothing to do with the church. Jesus is addressing Israelites here. We know this because you left out the verse when they refer to "our fathers" eating manna in the desert. This is an Israelite prophetic passage. It is further described by Jesus here.

Matthew 24: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Behold, one of the most misunderstood passages in all of church history. This passage is NOT the rapture. The rapture does not involve angels gathering the elect. It is an end time, supernatural gathering of Messianic Jews as prophesied in Deuteronomy by Moses tha takes place at the Second Coming, aka "The Last Day." I address this in much greater detail in my thread "Matthew 24:29 - "After the tribulation of those days" which I just bumped today.

So now, if you have something Scriptural to offer that address the OP, I'm all ears.

Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day and you say its not. In fact it seems you're saying what Jesus refers to in Jn 6 has already happened, correct? And or that John 6 applies only to Israel.? You'll never arrive at the truth that way.