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Post-Trib Model Failure: The Attitude of The Unbelieving World

The Parable of the wheat and the tares would be fine to discuss.
Go ahead
The mystery concerning the nation of Israel isn't about its physical descendents (although that too is important), it's about the partial blindness of that nation with respect to its earthly ordinances and promises in Christ, right here on earth.. and that is where the Lord will sit upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory (Matt 25), in Jerusalem which is the city of the great King. We're told that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones and will be judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.. in that DAY.. the Day of the Lord.. The Day of Jesus Christ.. which will be thousand years long..

The scriptures teach us this thematically and prophetically.. that Israel would reject their Messiah, that He would bring in the fulness of the Gentiles.. and that He would return and turn ungodliness from JACOB.. the one who was deceived into believing that the son of his old age was dead.. but learned much later in his life that he was alive and ruler over all.. JACOB.. the one who wrestled with God all night and whose name was changed to Israel in that Day when the Sun rose upon him..

It's all foretold in countless amazing ways.. but sadly so much of that is lost with the teaching of amillenialism and replacement theology..
If you want to go on about 'replacemnt theology' its needs its own thread.

You posted;
I can't imagine how any Christian could consider THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD (of which Satan is the god of) to be the kingdom of God..

I gave you the answer, or at least a starting point.
 
Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day and you say its not. You'll never arrive at the truth that way.

It wouldn't make sense if the last day was a 24 hour period of time.. although the last day, the Day of the Lord is a thousand years long.. again, Peter reminds us that this is one thing we should not be ignorant of..

Matthew 24 clearly is within the context of Israel and has nothing to do with the church of God.. it didn't yet exist when this was told to His disciples.
 
I can't imagine how any Christian could consider THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD (of which Satan is the god of) to be the kingdom of God.. but there are multitudes who believe this.. and one of the primary drivers for this deception is IGNORING the mystery pertaining to the restoration of ISRAEL and its false teaching that the church of God is Israel..

while i am futurist. i have to wonder that myself.however, its not fair to say that they(preterist/historist) are blind to this but rather that the church has failed to be the salt. pragmatically while i see the lord coming soon. i am for all intents and purposes on the same sheet as they are. we shouldnt stop engaging the world in philosophical debates/stop feeding the hungry/voting/making disciples/ and also trying to turn the world upside down.

if you are an american then perhaps you should thank the puritans who did influence our country and gave us the protestant work ethic and gave us this nugget of wisdom.
 
GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence, hath so disposed of the condition of mankind, as in all times some must be rich, some poor, some high and eminent in power and dignity; others mean and in submission.

The Reason hereof:

1st Reason. First to hold conformity with the rest of His world, being delighted to show forth the glory of his wisdom in the variety and difference of the creatures, and the glory of His power in ordering all these differences for the preservation and good of the whole, and the glory of His greatness, that as it is the glory of princes to have many officers, so this great king will have many stewards, counting himself more honored in dispensing his gifts to man by man, than if he did it by his own immediate hands.

2nd Reason. Secondly, that He might have the more occasion to manifest the work of his Spirit: first upon the wicked in moderating and restraining them, so that the rich and mighty should not eat up the poor, nor the poor and despised rise up against and shake off their yoke. Secondly, in the regenerate, in exercising His graces in them, as in the great ones, their love, mercy, gentleness, temperance etc., and in the poor and inferior sort, their faith, patience, obedience etc.

3rd Reason. Thirdly, that every man might have need of others, and from hence they might be all knit more nearly together in the bonds of brotherly affection. From hence it appears plainly that no man is made more honorable than another or more wealthy etc., out of any particular and singular respect to himself, but for the glory of his Creator and the common good of the creature, man. Therefore God still reserves the property of these gifts to Himself as Ezek. 16:17, He there calls wealth, His gold and His silver, and Prov. 3:9, He claims their service as His due, "Honor the Lord with thy riches," etc. --- All men being thus (by divine providence) ranked into two sorts, rich and poor; under the first are comprehended all such as are able to live comfortably by their own means duly improved; and all others are poor according to the former distribution.

There are two rules whereby we are to walk one towards another: Justice and Mercy. These are always distinguished in their act and in their object, yet may they both concur in the same subject in each respect; as sometimes there may be an occasion of showing mercy to a rich man in some sudden danger or distress, and also doing of mere justice to a poor man in regard of some particular contract, etc.

There is likewise a double Law by which we are regulated in our conversation towards another. In both the former respects, the Law of Nature and the Law of Grace (that is, the moral law or the law of the gospel) to omit the rule of justice as not properly belonging to this purpose otherwise than it may fall into consideration in some particular cases. By the first of these laws, man as he was enabled so withal is commanded to love his neighbor as himself. Upon this ground stands all the precepts of the moral law, which concerns our dealings with men. To apply this to the works of mercy, this law requires two things. First, that every man afford his help to another in every want or distress.

Secondly, that he perform this out of the same affection which makes him careful of his own goods, according to the words of our Savior (from Matthew 7:12), whatsoever ye would that men should do to you. This was practiced by Abraham and Lot in entertaining the angels and the old man of Gibea. The law of Grace or of the Gospel hath some difference from the former (the law of nature), as in these respects: First, the law of nature was given to man in the estate of innocence. This of the Gospel in the estate of regeneracy. Secondly, the former propounds one man to another, as the same flesh and image of God. This as a brother in Christ also, and in the communion of the same Spirit, and so teacheth to put a difference between Christians and others. Do good to all, especially to the household of faith. Upon this ground the Israelites were to put a difference between the brethren of such as were strangers, though not of the Canaanites.

Thirdly, the Law of Nature would give no rules for dealing with enemies, for all are to be considered as friends in the state of innocence, but the Gospel commands love to an enemy. Proof: If thine enemy hunger, feed him; "Love your enemies... Do good to them that hate you" (Matt. 5:44).

This law of the Gospel propounds likewise a difference of seasons and occasions. There is a time when a Christian must sell all and give to the poor, as they did in the Apostles’ times. There is a time also when Christians (though they give not all yet) must give beyond their ability, as they of Macedonia (2 Cor. 8). Likewise, community of perils calls for extraordinary liberality, and so doth community in some special service for the church.

Lastly, when there is no other means whereby our Christian brother may be relieved in his distress, we must help him beyond our ability rather than tempt God in putting him upon help by miraculous or extraordinary means. This duty of mercy is exercised in the kinds: giving, lending and forgiving (of a debt).

Question: What rule shall a man observe in giving in respect of the measure?

Answer: If the time and occasion be ordinary he is to give out of his abundance. Let him lay aside as God hath blessed him. If the time and occasion be extraordinary, he must be ruled by them; taking this withal, that then a man cannot likely do too much, especially if he may leave himself and his family under probable means of comfortable subsistence.

Objection: A man must lay up for posterity, the fathers lay up for posterity and children, and he is worse than an infidel that provideth not for his own.

Answer: For the first, it is plain that it being spoken by way of comparison, it must be meant of the ordinary and usual course of fathers, and cannot extend to times and occasions extraordinary. For the other place the Apostle speaks against such as walked inordinately, and it is without question, that he is worse than an infidel who through his own sloth and voluptuousness shall neglect to provide for his family.

Objection: "The wise man's eyes are in his head," saith Solomon, "and foreseeth the plague;" therefore he must forecast and lay up against evil times when he or his may stand in need of all he can gather.

Answer: This very Argument Solomon useth to persuade to liberality (Eccle. 11), "Cast thy bread upon the waters...for thou knowest not what evil may come upon the land." Luke 16:9, "Make you friends of the riches of iniquity..." You will ask how this shall be? Very well. For first he that gives to the poor, lends to the Lord and He will repay him even in this life an hundredfold to him or his. The righteous is ever merciful and lendeth, and his seed enjoyeth the blessing; and besides we know what advantage it will be to us in the day of account when many such witnesses shall stand forth for us to witness the improvement of our talent. And I would know of those who plead so much for laying up for time to come, whether they hold that to be Gospel Matthew 6:19, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth," etc. If they acknowledge it, what extent will they allow it? If only to those primitive times, let them consider the reason whereupon our Savior grounds it. The first is that they are subject to the moth, the rust, the thief. Secondly, they will steal away the heart: "where the treasure is there will your heart be also."
 
You posted;
I can't imagine how any Christian could consider THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD (of which Satan is the god of) to be the kingdom of God..

I gave you the answer, or at least a starting point.

So do you think that this present evil world is the kingdom of God ? How do you account for the scriptural fact that Satan is the god of this world who has blinded those who believe not the gospel? How do you imagine that He is bound and that the nations are not decieved ?

Why would the Lord be calling people OUT of the world and to be seperate from it if this is His kingdom ?
 
The reasons are of like force at all times. Therefore the exhortation must be general and perpetual, with always in respect of the love and affection to riches and in regard of the things themselves when any special service for the church or particular distress of our brother do call for the use of them; otherwise it is not only lawful but necessary to lay up as Joseph did to have ready upon such occasions, as the Lord (whose stewards we are of them) shall call for them from us. Christ gives us an instance of the first, when he sent his disciples for the donkey, and bids them answer the owner thus, "the Lord hath need of him." So when the Tabernacle was to be built, He sends to His people to call for their silver and gold, etc., and yields no other reason but that it was for His work. When Elisha comes to the widow of Sareptah and finds her preparing to make ready her pittance for herself and family, he bids her first provide for him, he challenges first God's part which she must first give before she must serve her own family. All these teach us that the Lord looks that when He is pleased to call for His right in any thing we have, our own interest we have must stand aside till His turn be served. For the other, we need look no further then to that of 1 John 3:17, "He who hath this world's goods and seeth his brother to need and shuts up his compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" Which comes punctually to this conclusion: If thy brother be in want and thou canst help him, thou needst not make doubt of what thou shouldst do; if thou lovest God thou must help him.

Question: What rule must we observe in lending?

Answer: Thou must observe whether thy brother hath present or probable or possible means of repaying thee, if there be none of those, thou must give him according to his necessity, rather then lend him as he requires (requests). If he hath present means of repaying thee, thou art to look at him not as an act of mercy, but by way of commerce, wherein thou art to walk by the rule of justice; but if his means of repaying thee be only probable or possible, then he is an object of thy mercy, thou must lend him, though there be danger of losing it. (Deut. 15:7-8): "If any of thy brethren be poor ... thou shalt lend him sufficient." That men might not shift off this duty by the apparent hazard, He tells them that though the year of Jubilee were at hand (when he must remit it, if he were not able to repay it before), yet he must lend him, and that cheerfully. It may not grieve thee to give him, saith He. And because some might object, why so I should soon impoverish myself and my family, he adds, with all thy work, etc., for our Savior said (Matt. 5:42), "From him that would borrow of thee turn not away."

Question: What rule must we observe in forgiving (a debt)?

Answer: Whether thou didst lend by way of commerce or in mercy, if he hath nothing to pay thee, thou must forgive, (except in cause where thou hast a surety or a lawful pledge). Deut. 15:1-2 --- Every seventh year the creditor was to quit that which he lent to his brother if he were poor, as appears in verse 4. "Save when there shall be no poor with thee." In all these and like cases, Christ gives a general rule (Matt. 7:12), "Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye the same to them."

Question: What rule must we observe and walk by in cause of community of peril?

Answer: The same as before, but with more enlargement towards others and less respect towards ourselves and our own right. Hence it was that in the primitive Church they sold all, had all things in common, neither did any man say that which he possessed was his own. Likewise in their return out of the captivity, because the work was great for the restoring of the church and the danger of enemies was common to all, Nehemiah directs the Jews to liberality and readiness in remitting their debts to their brethren, and disposing liberally to such as wanted, and stand not upon their own dues which they might have demanded of them. Thus did some of our forefathers in times of persecution in England, and so did many of the faithful of other churches, whereof we keep an honorable remembrance of them; and it is to be observed that both in Scriptures and latter stories of the churches that such as have been most bountiful to the poor saints, especially in those extraordinary times and occasions, God hath left them highly commended to posterity, as Zaccheus, Cornelius, Dorcas, Bishop Hooper, the Cutler of Brussels and divers others. Observe again that the Scripture gives no caution to restrain any from being over liberal this way; but all men to the liberal and cheerful practice hereof by the sweeter promises; as to instance one for many (Isaiah 58:6-9) "Is not this the fast I have chosen to loose the bonds of wickedness, to take off the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free and to break every yoke ... to deal thy bread to the hungry and to bring the poor that wander into thy house, when thou seest the naked to cover them ... and then shall thy light brake forth as the morning and thy health shall grow speedily, thy righteousness shall go before God, and the glory of the Lord shalt embrace thee; then thou shall call and the Lord shall answer thee," etc. And from Ch. 2:10 (??) "If thou pour out thy soul to the hungry, then shall thy light spring out in darkness, and the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in draught, and make fat thy bones, thou shalt be like a watered garden, and they shalt be of thee that shall build the old waste places," etc. On the contrary most heavy curses are laid upon such as are straightened towards the Lord and his people (Judg. 5:23), "Curse ye Meroshe ... because they came not to help the Lord." He who shutteth his ears from hearing the cry of the poor, he shall cry and shall not be heard." (Matt. 25) "Go ye cursed into everlasting fire," etc. "I was hungry and ye fed me not." (2 Cor. 9:6) "He that soweth sparingly shall reap sparingly."

Having already set forth the practice of mercy according to the rule of God's law, it will be useful to lay open the grounds of it also, being the other part of the Commandment and that is the affection from which this exercise of mercy must arise, the Apostle tells us that this love is the fulfilling of the law, not that it is enough to love our brother and so no further; but in regard of the excellency of his parts giving any motion to the other as the soul to the body and the power it hath to set all the faculties at work in the outward exercise of this duty; as when we bid one make the clock strike, he doth not lay hand on the hammer, which is the immediate instrument of the sound, but sets on work the first mover or main wheel; knowing that will certainly produce the sound which he intends. So the way to draw men to the works of mercy, is not by force of Argument from the goodness or necessity of the work; for though this cause may enforce, a rational mind to some present act of mercy, as is frequent in experience, yet it cannot work such a habit in a soul, as shall make it prompt upon all occasions to produce the same effect, but by framing these affections of love in the heart which will as naturally bring forth the other, as any cause doth produce the effect.

The definition which the Scripture gives us of love is this: Love is the bond of perfection. First it is a bond or ligament. Secondly, it makes the work perfect. There is no body but consists of parts and that which knits these parts together, gives the body its perfection, because it makes each part so contiguous to others as thereby they do mutually participate with each other, both in strength and infirmity, in pleasure and pain. To instance in the most perfect of all bodies: Christ and his Church make one body. The several parts of this body considered a part before they were united, were as disproportionate and as much disordering as so many contrary qualities or elements, but when Christ comes, and by his spirit and love knits all these parts to himself and each to other, it is become the most perfect and best proportioned body in the world (Eph. 4:15-16). Christ, by whom all the body being knit together by every joint for the furniture thereof, according to the effectual power which is in the measure of every perfection of parts, a glorious body without spot or wrinkle; the ligaments hereof being Christ, or his love, for Christ is love (1 John 4:8). So this definition is right. Love is the bond of perfection.

From hence we may frame these conclusions:

First of all, true Christians are of one body in Christ (1 Cor. 12). Ye are the body of Christ and members of their part. All the parts of this body being thus united are made so contiguous in a special relation as they must needs partake of each other's strength and infirmity; joy and sorrow, weal and woe. If one member suffers, all suffer with it, if one be in honor, all rejoice with it.

Secondly, the ligaments of this body which knit together are love.

Thirdly, no body can be perfect which wants its proper ligament.

Fourthly, All the parts of this body being thus united are made so contiguous in a special relation as they must needs partake of each other’s strength and infirmity, joy and sorrow, weal and woe. (1 Cor. 12:26) If one member suffers, all suffer with it; if one be in honor, all rejoice with it.
 
Fifthly, this sensitivity and sympathy of each other's conditions will necessarily infuse into each part a native desire and endeavor, to strengthen, defend, preserve and comfort the other. To insist a little on this conclusion being the product of all the former, the truth hereof will appear both by precept and pattern. 1 John 3:16, "We ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." Gal. 6:2, "Bear ye one another's burden’s and so fulfill the law of Christ."

For patterns we have that first of our Savior who, out of his good will in obedience to his father, becoming a part of this body and being knit with it in the bond of love, found such a native sensitivity of our infirmities and sorrows as he willingly yielded himself to death to ease the infirmities of the rest of his body, and so healed their sorrows. From the like sympathy of parts did the Apostles and many thousands of the Saints lay down their lives for Christ. Again the like we may see in the members of this body among themselves. Rom. 9 --- Paul could have been contented to have been separated from Christ, that the Jews might not be cut off from the body. It is very observable what he professeth of his affectionate partaking with every member; "Who is weak (saith he) and I am not weak? Who is offended and I burn not?" And again (2 Cor. 7:13), "Therefore we are comforted because ye were comforted." Of Epaphroditus he speaketh (Phil. 2:25-30) that he regarded not his own life to do him service. So Phoebe and others are called the servants of the church. Now it is apparent that they served not for wages, or by constraint, but out of love. The like we shall find in the histories of the church, in all ages; the sweet sympathy of affections which was in the members of this body one towards another; their cheerfulness in serving and suffering together; how liberal they were without repining, harborers without grudging, and helpful without reproaching; and all from hence, because they had fervent love amongst them; which only makes the practice of mercy constant and easy.

The next consideration is how this love comes to be wrought. Adam in his first estate was a perfect model of mankind in all their generations, and in him this love was perfected in regard of the habit. But Adam, himself rent from his Creator, rent all his posterity also one from another; whence it comes that every man is born with this principle in him to love and seek himself only, and thus a man continueth till Christ comes and takes possession of the soul and infuseth another principle, love to God and our brother, and this latter having continual supply from Christ, as the head and root by which he is united, gets predominant in the soul, so by little and little expels the former. 1 John 4:7 --- Love cometh of God and every one that loveth is born of God, so that this love is the fruit of the new birth, and none can have it but the new creature. Now when this quality is thus formed in the souls of men, it works like the Spirit upon the dry bones. Ezek. 37:7 --- "Bone came to bone." It gathers together the scattered bones, or perfect old man Adam, and knits them into one body again in Christ, whereby a man is become again a living soul.

The third consideration is concerning the exercise of this love, which is twofold, inward or outward. The outward hath been handled in the former preface of this discourse. From unfolding the other we must take in our way that maxim of philosophy, "simile simili gaudet," or like will to like; for as of things which are turned with disaffection to each other, the ground of it is from a dissimilitude or arising from the contrary or different nature of the things themselves; for the ground of love is an apprehension of some resemblance in the things loved to that which affects it. This is the cause why the Lord loves the creature, so far as it hath any of his Image in it; He loves his elect because they are like Himself, He beholds them in His beloved son.

So a mother loves her child, because she thoroughly conceives a resemblance of herself in it. Thus it is between the members of Christ; each discerns, by the work of the Spirit, his own Image and resemblance in another, and therefore cannot but love him as he loves himself. Now when the soul, which is of a sociable nature, finds anything like to itself, it is like Adam when Eve was brought to him. She must be one with himself. This is flesh of my flesh (saith he) and bone of my bone. So the soul conceives a great delight in it; therefore she desires nearness and familiarity with it. She hath a great propensity to do it good and receives such content in it, as fearing the miscarriage of her beloved, she bestows it in the inmost closet of her heart. She will not endure that it shall want any good which she can give it. If by occasion she be withdrawn from the company of it, she is still looking towards the place where she left her beloved. If she heard it groan, she is with it presently. If she find it sad and disconsolate, she sighs and moans with it. She hath no such joy as to see her beloved merry and thriving. If she see it wronged, she cannot hear it without passion. She sets no bounds to her affections, nor hath any thought of reward. She finds recompense enough in the exercise of her love towards it.

We may see this acted to life in Jonathan and David. Jonathan a valiant man endued with the spirit of love, so soon as he discovered the same spirit in David had presently his heart knit to him by this ligament of love; so that it is said he loved him as his own soul, he takes so great pleasure in him, that he strips himself to adorn his beloved. His father's kingdom was not so precious to him as his beloved David, David shall have it with all his heart. Himself desires no more but that he may be near to him to rejoice in his good. He chooseth to converse with him in the wilderness even to the hazard of his own life, rather than with the great Courtiers in his father's Palace. When he sees danger towards him, he spares neither rare pains nor peril to direct it. When injury was offered his beloved David, he would not bear it, though from his own father. And when they must part for a season only, they thought their hearts would have broke for sorrow, had not their affections found vent by abundance of tears. Other instances might be brought to show the nature of this affection; as of Ruth and Naomi, and many others; but this truth is cleared enough. If any shall object that it is not possible that love shall be bred or upheld without hope of requital, it is granted; but that is not our cause; for this love is always under reward. It never gives, but it always receives with advantage:

First in regard that among the members of the same body, love and affection are reciprocal in a most equal and sweet kind of commerce.

Secondly, in regard of the pleasure and content that the exercise of love carries with it, as we may see in the natural body. The mouth is at all the pains to receive and mince the food which serves for the nourishment of all the other parts of the body; yet it hath no cause to complain; for first the other parts send back, by several passages, a due proportion of the same nourishment, in a better form for the strengthening and comforting the mouth. Secondly, the labor of the mouth is accompanied with such pleasure and content as far exceeds the pains it takes. So is it in all the labor of love among Christians. The party loving, reaps love again, as was showed before, which the soul covets more then all the wealth in the world.

Thirdly, nothing yields more pleasure and content to the soul then when it finds that which it may love fervently; for to love and live beloved is the soul’s paradise both here and in heaven. In the State of wedlock there be many comforts to learn out of the troubles of that condition; but let such as have tried the most, say if there be any sweetness in that condition comparable to the exercise of mutual love.

From the former considerations arise these conclusions:

First, this love among Christians is a real thing, not imaginary.

Secondly, this love is as absolutely necessary to the being of the body of Christ, as the sinews and other ligaments of a natural body are to the being of that body.

Thirdly, this love is a divine, spiritual, nature; free, active, strong, courageous, permanent; undervaluing all things beneath its proper object and of all the graces, this makes us nearer to resemble the virtues of our heavenly father.

Fourthly, it rests in the love and welfare of its beloved. For the full certain knowledge of those truths concerning the nature, use, and excellency of this grace, that which the holy ghost hath left recorded, 1 Cor. 13, may give full satisfaction, which is needful for every true member of this lovely body of the Lord Jesus, to work upon their hearts by prayer, meditation continual exercise at least of the special influence of this grace, till Christ be formed in them and they in him, all in each other, knit together by this bond of love.

It rests now to make some application of this discourse, by the present design, which gave the occasion of writing of it. Herein are four things to be propounded; first the persons, secondly, the work, thirdly the end, fourthly the means.

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First, in regard of the more near bond of marriage between Him and us, wherein He hath taken us to be His, after a most strict and peculiar manner, which will make Him the more jealous of our love and obedience. So He tells the people of Israel, you only have I known of all the families of the earth, therefore will I punish you for your transgressions.

Secondly, because the Lord will be sanctified in them that come near Him. We know that there were many that corrupted the service of the Lord; some setting up altars before his own; others offering both strange fire and strange sacrifices also; yet there came no fire from heaven, or other sudden judgment upon them, as did upon Nadab and Abihu, whom yet we may think did not sin presumptuously.

Thirdly, when God gives a special commission He looks to have it strictly observed in every article; When He gave Saul a commission to destroy Amaleck, He indented with him upon certain articles, and because he failed in one of the least, and that upon a fair pretense, it lost him the kingdom, which should have been his reward, if he had observed his commission.

Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing. Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath He ratified this covenant and sealed our commission, and will expect a strict performance of the articles contained in it; but if we shall neglect the observation of these articles which are the ends we have propounded, and, dissembling with our God, shall fall to embrace this present world and prosecute our carnal intentions, seeking great things for ourselves and our posterity, the Lord will surely break out in wrath against us, and be revenged of such a people, and make us know the price of the breach of such a covenant.

Now the only way to avoid this shipwreck, and to provide for our posterity, is to follow the counsel of Micah, to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For this end, we must be knit together, in this work, as one man. We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other; make others’ conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. The Lord will be our God, and delight to dwell among us, as His own people, and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways, so that we shall see much more of His wisdom, power, goodness and truth, than formerly we have been acquainted with. We shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when He shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, "may the Lord make it like that of New England." For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world. We shall open the mouths of enemies to speak evil of the ways of God, and all professors for God's sake. We shall shame the faces of many of God's worthy servants, and cause their prayers to be turned into curses upon us till we be consumed out of the good land whither we are going.
 
And to shut this discourse with that exhortation of Moses, that faithful servant of the Lord, in his last farewell to Israel, Deut. 30. "Beloved, there is now set before us life and death, good and evil," in that we are commanded this day to love the Lord our God, and to love one another, to walk in his ways and to keep his Commandments and his ordinance and his laws, and the articles of our Covenant with Him, that we may live and be multiplied, and that the Lord our God may bless us in the land whither we go to possess it. But if our hearts shall turn away, so that we will not obey, but shall be seduced, and worship other Gods, our pleasure and profits, and serve them; it is propounded unto us this day, we shall surely perish out of the good land whither we pass over this vast sea to possess it.

Therefore let us choose life,

that we and our seed may live,

by obeying His voice and cleaving to Him,

for He is our life and our prosperity.


sorry for the lengthy posts

heres the origin of this so that if you can read it.

A Model of Christian Charity --- by Gov. John Winthrop, 1630

awesome man of god governor winthrop. we americans have forgotten that stuff and we need to return to it.
 
So do you think that this present evil world is the kingdom of God ? How do you account for the scriptural fact that Satan is the god of this world who has blinded those who believe not the gospel? How do you imagine that He is bound and that the nations are not decieved ?

Why would the Lord be calling people OUT of the world and to be seperate from it if this is His kingdom ?

Shall I repeat my suggestion?



24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn



38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.



Jesus says the kingdom grows along side the wicked ,not in the absence of the wicked. Jesus says this system is to last until the harvest. Jesus defines the harvest as the end of the world.
 
while i am futurist. i have to wonder that myself.however, its not fair to say that they(preterist/historist) are blind to this but rather that the church has failed to be the salt. .

I think that this is important because for many Israelites.. and for the world in general.. the first association made with the church is usually the RCC.. if people realized what the church of God actually is according to scripture.. then they'd probably fall down in worship as John did when the marriage of the Lamb to His wife was given to him in the vision.

So IOW.. most unbelievers I know associate the church of God with the RCC. I know that this isn't the case everywhere, although they're certainly a world wide influence on what people see and perceive as 'the church of God'..
 
Shall I repeat my suggestion?



24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn



38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.



Jesus says the kingdom grows along side the wicked ,not in the absence of the wicked. Jesus says this system is to last until the harvest. Jesus defines the harvest as the end of the world.

And I agree that's exactly what it says.. although it doesn't say that the kingdom is on earth right now.. and again, we know that Satan is the god of this present evil world, and that the Lord is calling people OUT OF IT.. to NOT be a part of it.. that would be crazy if the kingdoms of this world WERE the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.. but they're not.. right now they are Satan's to give to whoever will bow down and worship him..

Revelation 11 tells us when the Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and that's clearly a future prophetic event. Matthew 25 also shows us that when HE COMES that it will be THEN that people enter into His Kingdom.. in the Day of His rest.. in the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which will be a thousand years long.
 
Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day and you say its not. In fact it seems you're saying what Jesus refers to in Jn 6 has already happened, correct? And or that John 6 applies only to Israel.? You'll never arrive at the truth that way.

No, I just said the endtime supernatural gathering of israelite believers occurs on the last day and that is precisely what Jesus is describing in John 6 and Matthew 24:29-31. And no, it has not happened yet. It happens on the last day.
 
And I agree that's exactly what it says.. although it doesn't say that the kingdom is on earth right now.. and again, we know that Satan is the god of this present evil world, and that the Lord is calling people OUT OF IT.. to NOT be a part of it.. that would be crazy if the kingdoms of this world WERE the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.. but they're not.. right now they are Satan's to give to whoever will bow down and worship him..
Actually Jesus said;

14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And since you care little for the words of our Lord I'll quote Paul as well:

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


The kingdom is a very real and present reality. And when you complain about it it is the Father's plan and the earthly misitry of the Holy Spirit you question
Revelation 11 tells us when the Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and that's clearly a future prophetic event. Matthew 25 also shows us that when HE COMES that it will be THEN that people enter into His Kingdom.. in the Day of His rest.. in the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which will be a thousand years long.

So you have set for yourself quite a problem. You must account for evil along side the Kingdom, this must be a contemporary reality or you are placing this evil in some future age. I wonder what that would be?

Right now according to you we have been translated into a kingdom that does not exist, the same kingdom that Jesus spoke of and Paul taught, the same kingdom you deny.
 
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No, I just said the endtime supernatural gathering of israelite believers occurs on the last day and that is precisely what Jesus is describing in John 6 and Matthew 24:29-31. And no, it has not happened yet. It happens on the last day.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Hitch
Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day and you say its not. In fact it seems you're saying what Jesus refers to in Jn 6 has already happened, correct? And or that John 6 applies only to Israel.? You'll never arrive at the truth that way.


So are you saying that Jesus as per J 6 is NOT speaking of bodily resurrection ?
 
Last day of ????? anyone, anyone? Post-trib is another failure bc it is futuristic. And none of the events have ever occurred that the futurists ever spoke of !

Last day of Israel & the old covenant world.

What kingdom was Jesus to hand up to the Father? The fulfilled Old Covenant kingdom.

Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (at least 3 times)

And so, the end came. Jesus sat at the right hand of power & showed the "tribes of the land" that He indeed was the Son of God, which they didn't want to hear when He was in person. But as the "Lion of the tribe of Judah" all the tribes did mourn & Jesus came in the clouds of heaven. The dead were raised & the tribulation on the Jews all occur in the same period. See Daniel 7 & 9, 12.

There were 2 Jerusalems (see Galatians) one earthly, in bondage to the law of sin & death. The other holy, which we are citizens of. Heaven & earth.

But you can still spread the gospel bc the world is much more inhabited today as was at the end of that Jewish world time.

THE LAST DAYS - Preterism and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology and prophecy, the last days, and the Second Coming
 
Last day of ????? anyone, anyone? Post-trib is another failure bc it is futuristic. And none of the events have ever occurred that the futurists ever spoke of !

Last day of Israel & the old covenant world.

What kingdom was Jesus to hand up to the Father? The fulfilled Old Covenant kingdom.

Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (at least 3 times)

And so, the end came. Jesus sat at the right hand of power & showed the "tribes of the land" that He indeed was the Son of God, which they didn't want to hear when He was in person. But as the "Lion of the tribe of Judah" all the tribes did mourn & Jesus came in the clouds of heaven. The dead were raised & the tribulation on the Jews all occur in the same period. See Daniel 7 & 9, 12.

There were 2 Jerusalems (see Galatians) one earthly, in bondage to the law of sin & death. The other holy, which we are citizens of. Heaven & earth.

But you can still spread the gospel bc the world is much more inhabited today as was at the end of that Jewish world time.

THE LAST DAYS - Preterism and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology and prophecy, the last days, and the Second Coming

The last day period... The biblical Definition of day is a period of time that starts at full dark and goes though a period of light to full dark again. Tied to the last day and the DOTL referances is the end of the normal solar cycle in which the world is lite by the presence of Gods glory.

While the standard futerist position is incorrect, the preterist position still fails to show evidence that the lord has indeed returned to collect his elect and fullfilled all prophacy.

Danial does not show that all those events happen together, in fact it shows large spans of time between some events. And Danial 11 ends with the establishment of the AC temple in Glorious holy mountains (I.E. dome of the rock 680 ad ) no where near the first century. The fact that the tribulation of the jews and the church continue to this day alone, should throw the preterist position out of every window. The end to the times of the gentiles could not have been ended before the return of Israel to Jerusalem in 1967, and they still don't have control of the temple grounds themselves.

luke 21v25 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
 
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by warhorse,
. The end to the times of the gentiles could not have been ended before the return of Israel to Jerusalem in 1967, and they still don't have control of the temple grounds themselves

Muslims aren't "gentiles" Nothing in the Bible predicts any events beyond AD70 for the Jews. The times of the gentiles were the nations that lorded over Israel. Since it was in Daniel's time & visions, Egypt is not included. It begins with Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon & ended with the 4th beast- the Roman empire. Time, times, & a half time was the great tribulation on the harlot.

It was to the Jew 1st then the Greek (salvation) But you want to claim the opposite. God gave the gentiles salvation but what now? Come back (& to earth no less) after 2k years to offer salvation to the Jews - bc He he didn't come for the lost tribes of Israel the 1st time? Palease. You have that in reverse.

You shouldn't make light of the Jews rejection of their own Messiah. Trust me God didn't- & He made all Christ's enemies his footstool when Christ ascended. After 40 years, the kingdom of God & of His Christ was announced. The fulfillment btw, of the feast of trumpets.(7th trumpet)
 
by warhorse,


Muslims aren't "gentiles" Nothing in the Bible predicts any events beyond AD70 for the Jews. The times of the gentiles were the nations that lorded over Israel. Since it was in Daniel's time & visions, Egypt is not included. It begins with Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon & ended with the 4th beast- the Roman empire. Time, times, & a half time was the great tribulation on the harlot.

It was to the Jew 1st then the Greek (salvation) But you want to claim the opposite. God gave the gentiles salvation but what now? Come back (& to earth no less) after 2k years to offer salvation to the Jews - bc He he didn't come for the lost tribes of Israel the 1st time? Palease. You have that in reverse.

You shouldn't make light of the Jews rejection of their own Messiah. Trust me God didn't- & He made all Christ's enemies his footstool when Christ ascended. After 40 years, the kingdom of God & of His Christ was announced. The fulfillment btw, of the feast of trumpets.(7th trumpet)

Anyone that is not a bio Hebrew was a Gentil. The promise was given to Abraham by faith and it was always by faith. For a literal millinial reign. and i see no hystorical evidence to support this announcment of the kingdom of God on earth.
 
Actually Jesus said;

14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And since you care little for the words of our Lord I'll quote Paul as well:

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

There is no doubt that a Christian has already become a part of God's kingdom, although that still does not mean that the kingdom of God is on earth.. AND WE KNOW that because Paul says this..

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The church of God is not an earthly entity like Israel is.. its (our) citizenship is IN HEAVEN..

The kingdom is a very real and present reality. And when you complain about it it is the Father's plan and the earthly misitry of the Holy Spirit you question

God's kingdom is very real, no doubt about it.. although it is NOT on earth right now.. unless of course you do believe that this present evil world is His kingdom.. but that's a little ridiculous if you ask me.. all the war, hatred, crime, disobedience, deception... yeah.. it must be the kingdom of Christ.. lol

So you have set for yourself quite a problem. You must account for evil along side the Kingdom, this must be a contemporary reality or you are placing this evil in some future age. I wonder what that would be?

Evil will NOT be a part of Christ's kingdom.. right now they're growing together as the parable teaches us although when Christ comes He will destroy the man of sin and put away all that is evil... that's what Matthew 25 says plainly.. do you deny that ?

Right now according to you we have been translated into a kingdom that does not exist, the same kingdom that Jesus spoke of and Paul taught, the same kingdom you deny.

I haven't denied anything, or said that the kingdom of God doesn't exist.. our citizenship is IN HEAVEN and that's a biblical fact.. just as it's a biblical fact that SATAN is the god of this present evil world.. but some people don't like biblical facts.. they like what other men tell them and therefore most today are Amillenial... but sorry, I don't buy into that nonsense that Satan is bound and the nations are no longer deceived.. I do have eyes to see..
 
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