Post-Trib Model Failure: "YOU" vs "THEY"

[NJBeliever]

Post-Trib Failure: The Meaning of “THEY†vs. “YOUâ€


In reading this, I would encourage my forum peepz to really consider the verses being discussed before jumping into the knee-jerk "defense scriptures" Since I am doing a series, I have addressed many of the common Post-trib verse in other threads as well.


Somehow in prophetic Scripture, the audience being addressed is often overlooked. The post-trib model forces its adherents to do this to the extreme degree. Here is a clear example of two different audiences being addressed that most believers agree about:


1 Thessalonians 5: 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Now in this passage Paul is clearly distinguishing between believers and unbelievers. The unbelievers will think that they are in “peace and safety†and then be overtaken by the Day of the Lord. And THEY shall not escape. But the believers will be ready for the day and not be overtaken. The implication clearly is that YOU will escape. But somehow the post-trib just overlooks this assuming everyone goes through the Day together.

Moving on to matthew 24, we see that Jesus makes the same distinction. Post-tribbers hinge almost the entire model on Matthew 24:29-31. BUt we'll start in its companion passage, Luke 21.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Verse 27 is describing the unbelieving world seeing Jesus. Verse 28 is addressed to believers. And it is specifcally addressing us when the events of the Great Tribulation BEGIN, not at the end. This is very important to note. Jesus says "THEY" (meaning unbelievers) shall see Him coming in a cloud. Why won’t WE believers see Jesus coming in a cloud? Because WE will be with Him! Right behind Him as He returns to Earth.

But in verse 28, Jesus is concluding by saying when “these things†(meaning all the events He has just described, not just verse 27) BEGIN (notice "begin" is modified for a plural noun -things", as in all the things Jesus has been describing in the chapter) to come to pass, YOU should look up, because YOUR redemption draweth nigh. Two different time periods. Two different groups being addressed. When the Great Tribulation is beginning, YOU should look up because that is when YOU will see Jesus. Later on at the end of the 7 years, THEY will see Jesus with YOU behind Him! (Jude 14)

Now in Matthew 24, Jesus makes the same distinction:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Again we see that THEY shall see the Son of Man. So it is clear that the prophetic passages regarding the rapture and the Second Coming at points differentiate between the experiences of believers and unbelievers. When properly understanding this, it is apparent that believers receive their redemption at the beginning of the Day of The Lord, not at the end. And thus once again, we see that the post-trib model fails.

 

[Scotth1960]

Post-Trib Failure: The Meaning of “THEY†vs. “YOUâ€


In reading this, I would encourage my forum peepz to really consider the verses being discussed before jumping into the knee-jerk "defense scriptures" Since I am doing a series, I have addressed many of the common Post-trib verse in other threads as well.


Somehow in prophetic Scripture, the audience being addressed is often overlooked. The post-trib model forces its adherents to do this to the extreme degree. Here is a clear example of two different audiences being addressed that most believers agree about:


1 Thessalonians 5: 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Now in this passage Paul is clearly distinguishing between believers and unbelievers. The unbelievers will think that they are in “peace and safety†and then be overtaken by the Day of the Lord. And THEY shall not escape. But the believers will be ready for the day and not be overtaken. The implication clearly is that YOU will escape. But somehow the post-trib just overlooks this assuming everyone goes through the Day together.

Moving on to matthew 24, we see that Jesus makes the same distinction. Post-tribbers hinge almost the entire model on Matthew 24:29-31. BUt we'll start in its companion passage, Luke 21.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Verse 27 is describing the unbelieving world seeing Jesus. Verse 28 is addressed to believers. And it is specifcally addressing us when the events of the Great Tribulation BEGIN, not at the end. This is very important to note. Jesus says "THEY" (meaning unbelievers) shall see Him coming in a cloud. Why won’t WE believers see Jesus coming in a cloud? Because WE will be with Him! Right behind Him as He returns to Earth.

But in verse 28, Jesus is concluding by saying when “these things†(meaning all the events He has just described, not just verse 27) BEGIN (notice "begin" is modified for a plural noun -things", as in all the things Jesus has been describing in the chapter) to come to pass, YOU should look up, because YOUR redemption draweth nigh. Two different time periods. Two different groups being addressed. When the Great Tribulation is beginning, YOU should look up because that is when YOU will see Jesus. Later on at the end of the 7 years, THEY will see Jesus with YOU behind Him! (Jude 14)

Now in Matthew 24, Jesus makes the same distinction:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Again we see that THEY shall see the Son of Man. So it is clear that the prophetic passages regarding the rapture and the Second Coming at points differentiate between the experiences of believers and unbelievers. When properly understanding this, it is apparent that believers receive their redemption at the beginning of the Day of The Lord, not at the end. And thus once again, we see that the post-trib model fails.

Friends, Matthew 24 teaches the gathering of the Church, the elect of God, happens "after the tribulation of those days", NOT BEFORE the tribulation of those days. This is the verse in the Bible that refutes the timing of the pretribulation rapture. St. Matthew, in chapter 24, clearly indicates the resurrection of those in Christ Jesus happens after a period of tribulation to come. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Strangelove]

Desperate, desperate semantics to excuse the pre-trib position.

 

[tim-from-pa]

While I'm with E. W. Bullinger on the rapture timing, I want to also point out that the Matthew passages deal with Israel (i.e. the elect) and when Jesus talks about gathering his elect he's alluding to a passage in Isaiah. Remember, before the Spirit was given, there was no church, so Jesus was talking to his brethren. And to also quote J. H. Allen, there are the elect of race (from a family, i.e. Israel) and the elect of grace. Too often the former, which are the ones Jesus is talking about in Matthew, is confused with the latter. (Don't confuse both elections with personal salvation--- one can be elect of race and not be saved)

And again, referencing Bullinger, the church is the dispensation of grace and a totally different entity from Israel. While the two are integral in God's plan, they can also be mutually exclusive of each other. And to think, unlike Bullinger, I do not take an ultra-dispensationist stand, but I do agree there are such divisions in history where we come to a covenantal crossroad as God reveals His plan and purpose--- the "age of grace" being where non-Israelite Gentiles are also included in the promises to Abraham.

However, despite my rapture timing position, the mere fact that this subject is debated so hotly tells me that for whatever reason scripture is not straightforward on it, but rather has to be deduced and prophetically understood as to its purpose --- the problem is that everyone and his brother believes that they have the right answer to their position. I am one of the few that step back and admit that considering all the sides have interesting arguments, that I may actually be wrong in my belief.

 

[Scotth1960]

While I'm with E. W. Bullinger on the rapture timing, I want to also point out that the Matthew passages deal with Israel (i.e. the elect) and when Jesus talks about gathering his elect he's alluding to a passage in Isaiah. Remember, before the Spirit was given, there was no church, so Jesus was talking to his brethren. And to also quote J. H. Allen, there are the elect of race (from a family, i.e. Israel) and the elect of grace. Too often the former, which are the ones Jesus is talking about in Matthew, is confused with the latter. (Don't confuse both elections with personal salvation--- one can be elect of race and not be saved)

And again, referencing Bullinger, the church is the dispensation of grace and a totally different entity from Israel. While the two are integral in God's plan, they can also be mutually exclusive of each other. And to think, unlike Bullinger, I do not take an ultra-dispensationist stand, but I do agree there are such divisions in history where we come to a covenantal crossroad as God reveals His plan and purpose--- the "age of grace" being where non-Israelite Gentiles are also included in the promises to Abraham.

However, despite my rapture timing position, the mere fact that this subject is debated so hotly tells me that for whatever reason scripture is not straightforward on it, but rather has to be deduced and prophetically understood as to its purpose --- the problem is that everyone and his brother believes that they have the right answer to their position. I am one of the few that step back and admit that considering all the sides have interesting arguments, that I may actually be wrong in my belief.

Dear friend, That is what Bullinger said, and Bullinger is mistaken. Israel was meant to become part of the Church (Romans 11), not separate from it. Christ does not favor national Israel above His Church (Mat. 16:18). In Christ "there is no Jew nor Gentile", and "God is no respecter of persons". He does not favor people simply because they were born Jewish. A person must be "born again", and only then, as born-again Christians, and God's elect, are Christians "Abraham's seed". One is a child of Abraham only by faith in Jesus Christ. The elect in Matthew 24 refers not to Israel, but to the Church. Israel's election was to bring Christ and the Church into the world; national Israel's destiny is now tied eternally to the destiny of Christ's Church, for the Church is "the Israel of God". No future 1,000 year millennium from Jerusalem, no future animal sacrifices in a Jewish temple, as these animal sacrifices would be an insult and a blasphemy to the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross to save all sinners who repent and trust in Him and in His shed blood to atone for (remove) their many sins. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Sam21]

ALL pre-trib presentations start from the position that pre-trib is an established fact, before the bible is even read, before a scripture is even quoted, the mind set is that pre-trib is there...so now let us do what is necessary with the scriptures in order to find scripture that seems to support pre-trib.
Do pre-trib folks not ever recognize what they are doing? One should never approach the bible with a personal agenda. The correct approach is to allow the NT and the NT ONLY to speak, when this is done then it is obvious that the NT contains no pre-trib rapture,the gathering of the church is like Jesus described, after the tribulation. INTEGRITY IS THE ANSWER.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Dear friend, That is what Bullinger said, and Bullinger is mistaken. Israel was meant to become part of the Church (Romans 11), not separate from it. Christ does not favor national Israel above His Church (Mat. 16:18). In Christ "there is no Jew nor Gentile", and "God is no respecter of persons". He does not favor people simply because they were born Jewish. A person must be "born again", and only then, as born-again Christians, and God's elect, are Christians "Abraham's seed". One is a child of Abraham only by faith in Jesus Christ. The elect in Matthew 24 refers not to Israel, but to the Church. Israel's election was to bring Christ and the Church into the world; national Israel's destiny is now tied eternally to the destiny of Christ's Church, for the Church is "the Israel of God". No future 1,000 year millennium from Jerusalem, no future animal sacrifices in a Jewish temple, as these animal sacrifices would be an insult and a blasphemy to the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross to save all sinners who repent and trust in Him and in His shed blood to atone for (remove) their many sins. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Well you and I differ radically on this subject so it's best just to leave it at that. I understand that some Christians believe that everything is now spiritual and the Kingdom is "in one's heart" and all kinds of ethereal things like that. IMO that's just keeping God "out there", but the bible does teach dualistic themes, there is an earthly and there is a heavenly and both work together in God's plan.

As for whether God wanted Israelites and Jews saved, I have no problem with that and that's the only way to eternal life like anyone else. The other covenants, such as the Abrahamic, Davidic and such also have earthly and genealogical attributes to them for the purpose of future grace and as such these covenants are neither old nor new, but every bit in effect today which do not get fulfilled by the church. It's far more complex than old and new covenants. And it's in that framework of complexity that I am alluding to.

 

[Scotth1960]

Well you and I differ radically on this subject so it's best just to leave it at that. I understand that some Christians believe that everything is now spiritual and the Kingdom is "in one's heart" and all kinds of ethereal things like that. IMO that's just keeping God "out there", but the bible does teach dualistic themes, there is an earthly and there is a heavenly and both work together in God's plan.

As for whether God wanted Israelites and Jews saved, I have no problem with that and that's the only way to eternal life like anyone else. The other covenants, such as the Abrahamic, Davidic and such also have earthly and genealogical attributes to them for the purpose of future grace and as such these covenants are neither old nor new, but every bit in effect today which do not get fulfilled by the church. It's far more complex than old and new covenants. And it's in that framework of complexity that I am alluding to.

Dear tim from pa.
There is basically no complexity in all of the OT and the NT. It is really quite simple: Believe in God, repent, and be saved by God's mercy, and then live by keeping His commandments, out of love for God and love for neighbors as oneself. This is the same in the OT and in the NT. There is no separate covenant for "the Jews only". The Jews must become a part of the Church to please God. All people need to come into Christ, into Christ's Church. If one is in Christ, one is in the Church. There may be many sheep who are not members of a visible Church; but eventually all believers will be one (John 17) in the same, visible, one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. In Erie Scott H. PS Sacraments will also eventually become a part of one's repentance.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Dear tim from pa.
There is basically no complexity in all of the OT and the NT. It is really quite simple: Believe in God, repent, and be saved by God's mercy, and then live by keeping His commandments, out of love for God and love for neighbors as oneself. This is the same in the OT and in the NT. There is no separate covenant for "the Jews only". The Jews must become a part of the Church to please God. All people need to come into Christ, into Christ's Church. If one is in Christ, one is in the Church. There may be many sheep who are not members of a visible Church; but eventually all believers will be one (John 17) in the same, visible, one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. In Erie Scott H. PS Sacraments will also eventually become a part of one's repentance.

You are only talking from an old covenant/new covenant perspective that's true, but it they are not all the covenants. It's the others that I am referencing regarding chosen. And again, one can have, for example, the Abrahamic promises and blessings, and God can chose them, and still be a child of hell. And another can be a Gentile, having no promises and a child of the Lord. Then again, one can be an Israelite physical seed of Abraham AND have God's grace. Chosen never implies favored, but rather God's decision for His purpose.

The birthright (Abrahamic) promises for example are not to the Jews (and never were to those two tribes even before Christ), but to the Israelites, the others, specifically Joseph. But the Israelites never returned to the land and became (as Joseph did in Egypt) Gentile. Thus, this salvation goes to the Gentiles which many are, unbeknownst to themselves, actually physical seed of Abraham as well as spiritual. Their destiny was to become many (Christian) nations, and a blessing to the world according to the promises to Abraham. Of course we see this waning today as political correctness takes over and the time of the end comes according to bible prophecy.

So when I say Israel, I'm not talking about only Jews (Paul referred to them as "Israel which follows the Law").

 

[Scotth1960]

Well you and I differ radically on this subject so it's best just to leave it at that. I understand that some Christians believe that everything is now spiritual and the Kingdom is "in one's heart" and all kinds of ethereal things like that. IMO that's just keeping God "out there", but the bible does teach dualistic themes, there is an earthly and there is a heavenly and both work together in God's plan.

As for whether God wanted Israelites and Jews saved, I have no problem with that and that's the only way to eternal life like anyone else. The other covenants, such as the Abrahamic, Davidic and such also have earthly and genealogical attributes to them for the purpose of future grace and as such these covenants are neither old nor new, but every bit in effect today which do not get fulfilled by the church. It's far more complex than old and new covenants. And it's in that framework of complexity that I am alluding to.

Dear tim from pa, E.W. Bullinger is a dispensationist, and dispensationalism is clearly unbiblical and a heretical (dysfunctional) theology. See: DeMar, Gary, & Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. House Divided: The Break-Up of Dispensational Theology. TX: ICE Press. In Erie PS Scott Harrington

 

[Sam21]

If the post-trib model actually failed then that would mean that God failed because the post-trib rapture is the only rapture in the NT.

 

[Scotth1960]

[QUOTE=Sam21;502039]If the post-trib model actually failed then that would mean that God failed because the post-trib rapture is the only rapture in the NT.[/QUOTE]

AMEN, Sam21. See Matthew 24:29 ESV, KJV, etc. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Eventide]

As another brother mentioned.. the context of Matthew 24 pertains to Israel.. the church of God didn't yet exist when Matthew 24 was told to the Lord's Disciples... and again, the context is clearly Israel.. ie, pray that your flight is not on the SABBATH DAY and those who are in JUDAEA will flee to the mountains... clearly ISRAEL..

But then again we have multitudes from the one true church who have bought into the false doctrine of amillennialism and who therefore have bought into the false doctrine that the church of God is Israel.. these become wise in their own conceits just as Paul says, because they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel.. how that they (the nation of Israel) are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

Matthew 19 & 25 tells us plainly that when the Lord comes and then sits upon the throne of His glory that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel... it's right there in the scriptures..

God will deliver ungodliness from JACOB in that Day... JACOB, the one who wrestled with God all night and then was renamed Israel when the sun rose upon him.. the OT story of Joseph shows us these things thematically.. that he was loved by his Father and yet hated by his own brethren.. who sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver.. and Jacob was deceived into believing that his son of old age was dead.. but he wasn't of course... he went from the pit to the prison to the throne and after many years his brethren CAME TO HIM unknowingly... and in the end, JACOB learned that the son of his old age was alive and ruler over all..

I'm sorry, but amillenialism is a joke and it stems from ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel and teaching that the church of God is Israel... and that is completely foreign to the scriptures..

 

[Sam21]

As another brother mentioned.. the context of Matthew 24 pertains to Israel.. the church of God didn't yet exist when Matthew 24 was told to the Lord's Disciples... and again, the context is clearly Israel.. ie, pray that your flight is not on the SABBATH DAY and those who are in JUDAEA will flee to the mountains... clearly ISRAEL..

But then again we have multitudes from the one true church who have bought into the false doctrine of amillennialism and who therefore have bought into the false doctrine that the church of God is Israel.. these become wise in their own conceits just as Paul says, because they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel.. how that they (the nation of Israel) are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

Matthew 19 & 25 tells us plainly that when the Lord comes and then sits upon the throne of His glory that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel... it's right there in the scriptures..

God will deliver ungodliness from JACOB in that Day... JACOB, the one who wrestled with God all night and then was renamed Israel when the sun rose upon him.. the OT story of Joseph shows us these things thematically.. that he was loved by his Father and yet hated by his own brethren.. who sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver.. and Jacob was deceived into believing that his son of old age was dead.. but he wasn't of course... he went from the pit to the prison to the throne and after many years his brethren CAME TO HIM unknowingly... and in the end, JACOB learned that the son of his old age was alive and ruler over all..

I'm sorry, but amillenialism is a joke and it stems from ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel and teaching that the church of God is Israel... and that is completely foreign to the scriptures..

OK,but how do you explain the fact that the church was Israel in the beginning and still has those of Israel in it today. Claiming that Israel has to be separate from the church when the original church was Israel seems a little hard to explain. The 12 apostles are without any doubt the apostles of the church.

 

[Eventide]

OK,but how do you explain the fact that the church was Israel in the beginning and still has those of Israel in it today.

The church was Israel in the beginning ? Who told you that ?

The church of God is being built by the Lord by confessing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of the living God. This was impossible in the OT because Jesus was not yet made manifest to Israel.

Claiming that Israel has to be separate from the church when the original church was Israel seems a little hard to explain. The 12 apostles are without any doubt the apostles of the church.

What scripture (if any) are you basing your statement upon ?

 

[jasoncran]

isreal is going to be focused by god, in the tribulation time(aka jacob's trouble)

and that is what the time paul and the LORD talked about in the times of the gentiles.

they will have to see the messiah hamasciah as we do.

 

[warhorse]

Post-Trib Failure: The Meaning of “THEY” vs. “YOU”


In reading this, I would encourage my forum peepz to really consider the verses being discussed before jumping into the knee-jerk "defense scriptures" Since I am doing a series, I have addressed many of the common Post-trib verse in other threads as well.


Somehow in prophetic Scripture, the audience being addressed is often overlooked. The post-trib model forces its adherents to do this to the extreme degree. Here is a clear example of two different audiences being addressed that most believers agree about:


1 Thessalonians 5: 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Now in this passage Paul is clearly distinguishing between believers and unbelievers. The unbelievers will think that they are in “peace and safety” and then be overtaken by the Day of the Lord. And THEY shall not escape. But the believers will be ready for the day and not be overtaken. The implication clearly is that YOU will escape. But somehow the post-trib just overlooks this assuming everyone goes through the Day together.

Moving on to matthew 24, we see that Jesus makes the same distinction. Post-tribbers hinge almost the entire model on Matthew 24:29-31. BUt we'll start in its companion passage, Luke 21.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Verse 27 is describing the unbelieving world seeing Jesus. Verse 28 is addressed to believers. And it is specifcally addressing us when the events of the Great Tribulation BEGIN, not at the end. This is very important to note. Jesus says "THEY" (meaning unbelievers) shall see Him coming in a cloud. Why won’t WE believers see Jesus coming in a cloud? Because WE will be with Him! Right behind Him as He returns to Earth.

But in verse 28, Jesus is concluding by saying when “these things” (meaning all the events He has just described, not just verse 27) BEGIN (notice "begin" is modified for a plural noun -things", as in all the things Jesus has been describing in the chapter) to come to pass, YOU should look up, because YOUR redemption draweth nigh. Two different time periods. Two different groups being addressed. When the Great Tribulation is beginning, YOU should look up because that is when YOU will see Jesus. Later on at the end of the 7 years, THEY will see Jesus with YOU behind Him! (Jude 14)

Now in Matthew 24, Jesus makes the same distinction:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Again we see that THEY shall see the Son of Man. So it is clear that the prophetic passages regarding the rapture and the Second Coming at points differentiate between the experiences of believers and unbelievers. When properly understanding this, it is apparent that believers receive their redemption at the beginning of the Day of The Lord, not at the end. And thus once again, we see that the post-trib model fails.

Hey um strawman problem... us post tribers do believe that the rapture is at the beggining of the DOTL. We just believe that the Dotl is about 24 hrs not 7 years, and that the wrath of God is defined in Rev 16, and the tribulation as defined in Mathew 24, Mark 13, and luke 21, do not match.
Oh and please read romans 2, and 4, eph 2and 3, gal 2,and 3. The promise of abraham was always by faith.

 

[reba]

Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Some how in my head these verses intermingle. I dont know how to explain it do they speak to anyone else?

 

[reba]

War would the day of the Lord be the last day? as in John 6

 

[warhorse]

War would the day of the Lord be the last day? as in John 6

yes, there are also over 30 referances to the Day of the lord throughout scripture, and clearly define the events of what will be a glorius /horrable day.