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Post-Trib rapture discussion.

M

MISFIT

Guest
If the pre-tribers have one we should too right? Well here it is. Now Just so you know I'm actually undecided on the whole secret rapture thing, IMO if it happens great if not I plan to be prepared. I just think that people on this forum on both sides should have a topic in which to talk about what they believe about it without it trurning into a giant fight, so like the thread started by sheishisown this one will only be about a post-trib belief let's keep it that way. Now here's an article I found to be interesting.

Preaching a pre-tribulation rapture weakens the church

By Grant Swank.

Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.

The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.

Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.

Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.

The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.

However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!

Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.

All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.

One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.

Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.

One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.

During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?

Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?

Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?

One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.

Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.

In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.

Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.

What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.

The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to

eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.

Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?

Those who are not strong will drop  fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.

Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.

Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.

At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.

© Grant Swank
 
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.

I dont understand why anyone would say the pre trib came from Margaret Mcdonald.Ive read what she said and she was not pre trib.She was post trib pre wrath.
Her veiws were much like my own.John Darby on the other hand was pre trib before he ever met Margaret as he had written a few things concerning his view before he met her.Maybe he just took her words out of context as he did with scripture?
 
Hey, I just wanted to clarify someting:
MISFIT's sources said:
outtake
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
© Grant Swank

Read this:

http://www.geocities.com/biblerevelatio ... turism.htm

Outtake:

At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible's antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain, took on the challenge. Like Martin Luther, Ribera read the prophecies about the Antichrist, the little horn, the man of sin, and the beast. But he came to different conclusions than Luther did. He decided that the prophecies applied, not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to one diabolical figure at the end of time. This viewpoint quickly became the official Roman Catholic position on the Antichrist.

"In 1590, Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters, to the end of time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem."4 "Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (see 2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of Godâ€â€asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God.â€Â5 "The result of [Ribera's] work was a twisting and maligning of prophetic truth .â€Â6

Another brilliant Jesuit scholar, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-­1621) followed Francisco Ribera. Between 1581 and 1593, Cardinal Bellarmine published his "Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time." "The futurist teachings of Ribera were further popularized by an Italian cardinal and the most renowned of all Jesuit controversialists. His writings claimed that Paul, Daniel, and John had nothing whatsoever to say about the Papal power. The futurists' school won general acceptance among Catholics. They were taught that antichrist was a single individual who would not rule until the very end of time.â€Â7 Through the work of these two tricky Jesuit scholars, a brand new baby was born named "Jesuit Futurism." In fact, Francisco Ribera has been called the Father of Futurism.
 
MISFIT said:
I know I might get a warning for this post,
No warning, but a cleaning up of this thread and of Bonnie's if anyone posts in there contrary to the OP.

At least let these threads run their course before intervening. I must admit, with such an opinionated group of people like ourselves, closed topics are a rare event here without some kind of Moderator intervention.
 
Vic C. said:
MISFIT said:
I know I might get a warning for this post,
No warning, but a cleaning up of this thread and of Bonnie's if anyone posts in there contrary to the OP.

At least let these threads run their course before intervening. I must admit, with such an opinionated group of people like ourselves, closed topics are a rare event here without some kind of Moderator intervention.

Thanks Vic. Like I said I'm undecided so far. I started this thread because I know all about the pre-trib and I would like to hear some other points of view on this. I'm not out to fight about it I just want to learn other people's views, and I see nothing wrong with that.
 
I came across the following this morning and it pertains to this discussion....
Isaiah 25:9 And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, "Lo, this is our God; we have WAITED FOR HIM, and He will save us: THIS IS THE LORD; we have WAITED FOR HIM, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
Said twice, for emphasis is..."we waited for Him" and "this is the Lord" and that happens "in that day," meaning....the day of the Lord which is after the tribulation of Satan.

That tells me that the instead-of-christ (anti-christ) will be there pretending to be Him, :grumpy which is why they will say...THIS is the Lord for the true Savior arrives after the fake. Those that "waited for Him" and didn't fall for the deception "will be glad and rejoice." The others won't! Wailing and gnashing of teeth when they realize what has happened.
:crying

Matthew 24:19-20 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
:amen
 
If the pre-tribers have one we should too right? Well here it is. Now Just so you know I'm actually undecided on the whole secret rapture thing,

John 18;20
Jesus answerd him,I spake openly to the world,O ever taught in the synagogue,and in the temple,whither the jews always resort;and in secret have I said nothing.



Mat 24;29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give her light,and the stars shall fall from heaven,and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven;and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


As you can read our Lord spoke openly concering his coming and has hid nothing.This is as sound a doctrin as you will ever read about the subject but the day has come when men can not endure sound doctrin.They have heaped to themselves teachers such as John Darby who would preach to them what they want to hear after thier own lusts.


2 Tim4;3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrin;but after thier own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,having itching ears;And they shall turn away thier ears from the truth,and shall be turned unto fables.
 
1 thes 4;15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of God];and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,to meet the Lord in the air;and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The above verses is the basis for the rapture.If you will take notice and compare this scripture to Mat 24;31 which is said to take place after the tribulation,you will find they are speaking of the same event.

Mat 24;30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven;and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

As you can see the scriptures agree the coming of the Son of man shall take place after the tribulation.Paul was given many revelations and he spoke of when the dead in Christ would rise as he did in 1thes 4;16.He said it would take place at the sound of the last trump.

1 Corinth51-53
Behold I show you a mystery;we shall not all speep,but we shall all be changed,
In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump;for the trumpet shall sound,and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,and this mortal must put on immortality.


John also was given a revelation of this event and the time it would take place as well is the same as Paul stated.At the sound of the last trump.

Rev 10;7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel ,when he shall begin to sound,the mystery of God should be finished,as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11;15
And the seventh agel sounded,and there were great voices in heaven saying,The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ;and he shall reign for ever and ever.


I really dont know how the Lord could have made this any more clear than he has.
When Paul said last ,he ment last and the last trump in the bible is this seventh trump.
Dont let anyone fool you into believeing the Lord doesnt mean what he says.
If the scripture says last then its final.
 
Now Im going to touch on a subject in MAT 24 that many consider the rapture and have invented a left behind doctrin.Im going to show just how backward this doctrin is.

Mat 24;37-40
But as the days of Noah were,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking,marrying and given in marriage,untill the day that Noah enterd into the ark,
And knew not untill the flood came,and took them all away;so shall also the coming of the Son of man be,
Then shall two be in the field;the one shall be taken,and the other left.


Now this last verse is the basis for the left behind doctrin.But those who were left behind were Noah and his family.The scripture says those who knew not ,were taken away by the flood.
So as Jesus said ,so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
It is those who are left that are saved as Noah was saved,
and those who are taken are destroyed.

Now lets take a look at at Mat 13;30 concerning the the wheat and the tares.
Mat 13;30
Let both grow together untill the harvest;and in the time of the harvest,I will say to the reapers,Gather ye together first the tares,and bind them in bundles to burn them;but gather the wheat into my barn.


Note the tares are gatherd first and the wheat second.
Jesus goes on to say in this chapter the tares are the children of the wicked one and the wheat are the children of the kingdom.The angels are the reapers and the harvest is the end of the world.He again confirms the wicked are gatherd and burned first and then shall the rightous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of thier Father.
And he says;Who hath ears to hear ,let him hear.

Now Im not going to say pre tribers wont be taken first because its possible that they may in fact be the tares.They may be taken away just as in the days of Noah.
 
whirlwind
That tells me that the instead-of-christ (anti-christ) will be there pretending to be Him, :grumpy which is why they will say...THIS is the Lord for the true Savior arrives after the fake. Those that "waited for Him" and didn't fall for the deception "will be glad and rejoice." The others won't! Wailing and gnashing of teeth when they realize what has happened.[/b] :crying

Paul seems to agree a fake comes before anyone is gatherd unto Jesus.

2 thes 2;1-3
Now we beseech you,breathren,by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled,neither by spirit,nor by word,nor by letter as from us,as that day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man decieve you by any means;for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first,and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition.


There are many who have been decieved into believing they are gatherd before this man of sin is revealed or even before a falling away.
Not that any should be troubled by this because the Lord need not take anyone out of the world to keep them from the evil.

John 17;15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 
Shilohsfoal, I'm liking your posts too, I'm really starting to buy the post view.
 
MISFIT said:
Shilohsfoal, I'm liking your posts too, I'm really starting to buy the post view.

Well,Ive found it easy to believe something that needs no interpretation and hard to believe something thats just not there. :lol

John 6;39-40
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,but should raise it up at the last day.
And this is the will that sent me,that every one which seeth the Son,and believeth on him,may have everlasting life;and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
Now Im going to touch on a subject in MAT 24 that many consider the rapture and have invented a left behind doctrin.Im going to show just how backward this doctrin is.

Mat 24;37-40
But as the days of Noah were,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking,marrying and given in marriage,untill the day that Noah enterd into the ark,
And knew not untill the flood came,and took them all away;so shall also the coming of the Son of man be,
Then shall two be in the field;the one shall be taken,and the other left.


Now this last verse is the basis for the left behind doctrin.But those who were left behind were Noah and his family.The scripture says those who knew not ,were taken away by the flood.
So as Jesus said ,so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
It is those who are left that are saved as Noah was saved,
and those who are taken are destroyed.

Now lets take a look at at Mat 13;30 concerning the the wheat and the tares.
Mat 13;30
Let both grow together untill the harvest;and in the time of the harvest,I will say to the reapers,Gather ye together first the tares,and bind them in bundles to burn them;but gather the wheat into my barn.


Note the tares are gatherd first and the wheat second.
Jesus goes on to say in this chapter the tares are the children of the wicked one and the wheat are the children of the kingdom.The angels are the reapers and the harvest is the end of the world.He again confirms the wicked are gatherd and burned first and then shall the rightous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of thier Father.
And he says;Who hath ears to hear ,let him hear.
Good Points! :salute
Shilohsfoal said:
Now Im not going to say pre tribers wont be taken first because its possible that they may in fact be the tares.They may be taken away just as in the days of Noah.
Ouch! :o
 
Sinthesis said:
Shilohsfoal said:
Now Im not going to say pre tribers wont be taken first because its possible that they may in fact be the tares.They may be taken away just as in the days of Noah.
Ouch! :o
I agree... ouch.

I think it would be wise to do your best to represent your position by not building straw men or attacking the believers of other positions. I've seen too much of that in End Times discussions and all it does is cause rifts. Address the position, not the person(s).
 
Vic C. said:
Sinthesis said:
Shilohsfoal said:
Now Im not going to say pre tribers wont be taken first because its possible that they may in fact be the tares.They may be taken away just as in the days of Noah.
Ouch! :o
I agree... ouch.

I think it would be wise to do your best to represent your position by not building straw men or attacking the believers of other positions. I've seen too much of that in End Times discussions and all it does is cause rifts. Address the position, not the person(s).

But who goes first and who goes last is the position in the parable of the wheat and tares and they say they will go first.Who am I to say they wont?God knows.

How many times have I watched as TV evangelists add a prophecy of thiers to the book of revelation.And its not like they are attempting to interpret the events that take place in revalation.They simply add thier own prophecy to the book.They always add it in a blank space between chapters 3 and 4 and the prophecy is the pre tribulation rapture.At the same time they add thier prophecy they take the church out of the prophecies of revelation saying that its gone.Have you ever witnessed such a wonder as this?This is no attack on anyone, it is a fact.

Rev 22;18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,If any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book;


I wouldnt be a bit surprised if those TV preachers are the first in line to be taken away,just as thier own words testify.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if those TV preachers are the first in line to be taken away,just as thier own words testify.
That's fine as long as we aren't lumping all TV preachers into the same basket. Some are good, some are way out there. Teachers and preachers will bear a greater responsibility for what they expound.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
OK, here is my post trib view in my own words, but I can back it all up with scriptures :)

God has a plan: to bring many sons to glory. It must happen through the church. It must happen through Christ being IN people . The crucifixion is the key. It brings creation back to where it must be, and it places Christ inside the body of believers, which are now called "His Body" because He indwells them and starts to change them from the inside.

In the meantime , the enemy sows tares into the kingdom, hoping to stop this from the inside. God allows this, and says He will remove them just before the end come,so that the church can be without spot or wrinkle. He has a plan how to do this. This plan has always worked before with Israel. ..............He has to turn up the "heat", so that the dross will float to the top........Tribulation. Only true faith will keep believers alive during this time. All false religion will show itself for what it is during this time. Just like Judas, the tares will walk out, when it becomes a matter of live and death to be a Christian. They WILL take the mark, because it will save their earthly lives. Result: Clean church.

Now we have Body of Christ against Body of antichrist. Meaning: for the first time in history, its going to be real Christians against the rest.(antichrist) Out of this battle, will come a harvest and a through a true revival. Greater works will be seen as Jesus told us. The Bride is moving into her inheritance and receives her authority . She is now pure and speaks the Word with power.

Well, we know the end. When God has done with this purification, His work is done. He has manifested His sons as He promised in Romans and now He has one more thing to do. He opens the graves, and the dead get resurrected and at the same time, those who remained alive to the end, gets changed into their glorified bodies. Both groups goes up at the same time at the last trumpet.
The church has left the earth and the wrath of God begins. He cleanses the earth with fire in preparation for the new earth which is to follow.

C
 
2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Mat. 13:11
Because it is given unto you to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, but to them
it is not given. For whosoever hath to him shall be given and he shall have more abundance.
but whosoever hath not from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing see not, and hearing hear not,
neither do they understand. and in them is filled the prophecy of E-sai-as, which saith, by
hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see and shall not
perceive.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes
they have closed. Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their
ears, and should understand with their HEART, and should be converted, and I should
heal them.
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear. For verily I say unto
you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see
and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation is correct if put in proper
context of what our Lord Jesus Christ said, and that is those that HATH will understand,
and those that HATH will know if what is spoken out of the mouth of men cometh from
the Lord and the holy spirit, or if it cometh from darkness of a waxed heart. Those that
HATH NOT shall NOT understand lest at any time they should be converted.

Therefore those that HATH NOT will not understand those that HATH, because the
kingdom of heaven is a MYSTERY to those that HATH NOT.

Our Lord Jesus Christ did make it clear though that it is not for any private interpretations,
but those that HATH NOT to them it will seem as if it is of a private interpretations, but its
because they are not converted yet and their hearts are still waxed gross and therefore
they do not understand, only those that HATH will actually understand and then the
kingdom of heaven is no longer a MYSTERY.
 
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