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Post-Trib rapture discussion.

Here is another view on "stars"

Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

Abraham's children are called stars. We are Abraham's children. We are seated in the heavenlies and when the great falling away happens, some of these children of Abraham will fall from their position.

"Earth" is a symbolic for the "flesh", so the Bible is saying: A third of the children of Abraham will loose their position as being seated in the heavenlies and fall back into their flesh.(earth)

This will happen, when Christians listen to the false prophet (this is a group ,not just one man) . We know that the "tail" means "false prophet"

Isa 9:15 The elder and the honorable man, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

I find that the Bible in fact has a very clear answer to everything. Scripture indeed lights up scripture.
 
There are followers of Jesus on earth all the way to the time God brings
fire down from heaven and ends it for good. Which means that not all
the people the follow Jesus and God are caught up or raised up after
the first war. So when preachers preach that ALL believers in Christ will
be raptured BEFORE tribulation, then it is like the blind leading the blind,
but the good new is as long as they are alive they still have a chance to
change. As is with all whom are alive have a chance, for only when one
passeth away are there no more chances. We should all strive to enter
in by the strait and narrow path, and help others also to do the same, but
in the end we all have a personal choice, but pray that we all choose the
right path.

I admit that I am sure ALL of us whom strive to enter in by the strait and narrow
path would like to be counted worthy, but it is up to God, Jesus and You as to
if you are counted worthy not other men/women.

Now on to the seven angels that represent the seven churches. God does care about
these "churches" (which means people not a material building), but he has things against
each of them, and if they do not change and repent God will remove their candlestick.
Many churches believe that they are the only way and that they are better then other
churches and because of their narrow minded thinking, they have segregated themselves
and have in a way fallen away into denominations.

Which God always leads me back to this saying, "Which of you thinketh you are better
then your neighbor, for those that seek to exalt themselves shall be brought down to the
lowest depths, and those that humble themselves before God shall be exalted. for all
have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, therefore he/she whom is without sin
shall cast the first stone."
 
Cornelius said:
Here is another view on "stars"

Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

Abraham's children are called stars. We are Abraham's children. We are seated in the heavenlies and when the great falling away happens, some of these children of Abraham will fall from their position.

"Earth" is a symbolic for the "flesh", so the Bible is saying: A third of the children of Abraham will loose their position as being seated in the heavenlies and fall back into their flesh.(earth)

This will happen, when Christians listen to the false prophet (this is a group ,not just one man) . We know that the "tail" means "false prophet"

Isa 9:15 The elder and the honorable man, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

I find that the Bible in fact has a very clear answer to everything. Scripture indeed lights up scripture.
Click to expand...

Fascinating connection C! :D

Of course, God told Israel that they were all "gods."

Psa 82:6 I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.

And what are "gods" (small g)? Angels, arch-angels (Satan, the god of this world, etc)

Stars=angels=gods.

The darkened sun, moon and stars could very well be a portion of Israel that ceased to be light. Or the Israel in heaven. Were Satan and his fallen angels part of heavenly Israel once?

Lam 2:1 How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger! He hath cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, And hath not remembered his footstool in the day of his anger.

Dunno. :D
 
and one for Jews who come to know Messiah after the Wrath, when God finally gathers HIS remnant of Israel from the wilderness and introduces them to their 'Bridegroom'.

I make clear distinctions between Tribulation by the Adversary and the Wrath, which is from God, so it's easy for me to see who is gathered and when.
Click to expand...

I see the difference between tribulation of the adversary and wrath as well,but where in scripture does it say the jews come to know the Messiah after the wrath of God?
 
Jesus said, No one can ascend to heaven unless he/she has first descended from heaven",
therefore all whom are born upon earth were first cometh from heaven, even Satan was first
cometh from heaven and was an angel of heaven.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
and one for Jews who come to know Messiah after the Wrath, when God finally gathers HIS remnant of Israel from the wilderness and introduces them to their 'Bridegroom'.

I make clear distinctions between Tribulation by the Adversary and the Wrath, which is from God, so it's easy for me to see who is gathered and when.
Click to expand...

I see the difference between tribulation of the adversary and wrath as well,but where in scripture does it say the jews come to know the Messiah after the wrath of God?
Click to expand...

I believe the Jews see this after the final Gog-Magog war. (Eze 38:1 - 39:22, Rev 20:8)

Eze 39:1 And thou, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 and I will turn thee about, and will lead thee on, and will cause thee to come up from the uttermost parts of the north; and I will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel;
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am Jehovah their God, from that day and forward.
 
4thangelofEuphrates said:
Jesus said, No one can ascend to heaven unless he/she has first descended from heaven",
therefore all whom are born upon earth were first cometh from heaven, even Satan was first
cometh from heaven and was an angel of heaven.
Click to expand...


Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

While he said it differently, I believe there is the possibility that our spirits existed in heaven prior to this and were put into flesh bodies. There is precedence. Jesus' spirit was put into a body, and, he existed before his earthly body did.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
 
The best precedence I believe is that we all must stand before the great white
throne and God in judgment which I would have to believe is in heaven,
therefore to stand in Judgment we must have first descended from heaven.

Now this doesn't mean we are worthy and great, because even satan came
from heaven and we know where he ends up.
 
I believe the Jews see this after the final Gog-Magog war. (Eze 38:1 - 39:22, Rev 20:8)
Click to expand...

Well,I guess that would be after the wrath.
1000 years after the wrath.If Im not mistaken ,that is about the time of the second resurection.
 
researcher said:
4thangelofEuphrates said:
Jesus said, No one can ascend to heaven unless he/she has first descended from heaven",
therefore all whom are born upon earth were first cometh from heaven, even Satan was first
cometh from heaven and was an angel of heaven.
Click to expand...


Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

While he said it differently, I believe there is the possibility that our spirits existed in heaven prior to this and were put into flesh bodies. There is precedence. Jesus' spirit was put into a body, and, he existed before his earthly body did.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Click to expand...

Its not complicated.

It simply means that its only Christ who goes to heaven. Christ in you. God is not taking your old nature to heaven, He had that crucified with Christ and killed it. So no man will go to heaven, but He that came down from heaven (Christ).........even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
This is supposed to be a discussion of post tribulation. I'd like to read more about the post tribulational view why why you all believe what you do. Discussing it in a systematic way would be nice. :yes
 
Vic C. said:
This is supposed to be a discussion of post tribulation. I'd like to read more about the post tribulational view why why you all believe what you do. Discussing it in a systematic way would be nice. :yes
Click to expand...

Ive pretty much put my veiw in my 2nd-6th posts in this thread.
I dont have that much to add other than nobody promised me I wouldnt have tribulation.
John 16;33
These things I have spoken unto you,that in me ye might have peace.In the world ye shall have tribulation;but be of good cheer;I have overcome the world.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
Vic C. said:
This is supposed to be a discussion of post tribulation. I'd like to read more about the post tribulational view why why you all believe what you do. Discussing it in a systematic way would be nice. :yes
Click to expand...

Ive pretty much put my veiw in my 2nd-6th posts in this thread.
I dont have that much to add other than nobody promised me I wouldnt have tribulation.
John 16;33
These things I have spoken unto you,that in me ye might have peace.In the world ye shall have tribulation;but be of good cheer;I have overcome the world.
Click to expand...
Well of course, look at my siggy. :yes
 
Hi All,
In Matthew 24:31 it says, "And He will send His angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
In Jesus discourse here there is no mention of any "rapture" prior to this when He returns "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29) and He mentions here in verse 31, a "great trumpet"

On the day of Atonement the very last trumpet to sound on that day is the "Shofar Ha Gadol" - i.e. the "Great Trumpet". It is also the very last trumpet of all the shofar blowing which has been done for 40 days previously. The ten days preceding the Day of Atonement is called the "Days of Awe" and is understood to be equivalent to the tribulation or "the time of Jacob's trouble" which exactly matches what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:29-31.

The word "rapture" is unscriptural and the only thing ever spoken about is the resurrection. Paul spoke of wishing to attain a better resurrection understanding that the first resurrection was the "better" resurrection which is only for the Bride or the Overcomers. Philippians 3:10-14: Hebrews 11:35

The second resurrection is what Jesus speaks about as a resurrection of the just and the unjust of "all who are in the graves" John 5:27
No mention of anyone being alive at that time to be joined with those who are raised. It is a resurrection of all who are in the grave for the Great White Throne judgment. No mention of HIm returning at that time either, as He would have returned 1,000 years before to take possession of His kingdom on earth.

144BatZion
 
BatZion144 said:
Hi All,
In Matthew 24:31 it says, "And He will send His angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
In Jesus discourse here there is no mention of any "rapture" prior to this when He returns "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29) and He mentions here in verse 31, a "great trumpet"

On the day of Atonement the very last trumpet to sound on that day is the "Shofar Ha Gadol" - i.e. the "Great Trumpet". It is also the very last trumpet of all the shofar blowing which has been done for 40 days previously. The ten days preceding the Day of Atonement is called the "Days of Awe" and is understood to be equivalent to the tribulation or "the time of Jacob's trouble" which exactly matches what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:29-31.

The word "rapture" is unscriptural and the only thing ever spoken about is the resurrection. Paul spoke of wishing to attain a better resurrection understanding that the first resurrection was the "better" resurrection which is only for the Bride or the Overcomers. Philippians 3:10-14: Hebrews 11:35

The second resurrection is what Jesus speaks about as a resurrection of the just and the unjust of "all who are in the graves" John 5:27
No mention of anyone being alive at that time to be joined with those who are raised. It is a resurrection of all who are in the grave for the Great White Throne judgment. No mention of HIm returning at that time either, as He would have returned 1,000 years before to take possession of His kingdom on earth.

144BatZion
Click to expand...


I think I may have learned a little something I didnt understand before and gives me a reason to hit the books again.Thanks.
Just goes to show an old dog can learn a trick or two. :lol
 
Hi All,
In Matthew 24:31 it says, "And He will send His angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
In Jesus discourse here there is no mention of any "rapture" prior to this when He returns "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29) and He mentions here in verse 31, a "great trumpet"

On the day of Atonement the very last trumpet to sound on that day is the "Shofar Ha Gadol" - i.e. the "Great Trumpet". It is also the very last trumpet of all the shofar blowing which has been done for 40 days previously. The ten days preceding the Day of Atonement is called the "Days of Awe" and is understood to be equivalent to the tribulation or "the time of Jacob's trouble" which exactly matches what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:29-31.
Click to expand...

my translation says this:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Anyway, that's pretty close to this:

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

It refers to this trump as the "last trump" which agrees with:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the "last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Either way, we're both right around the same time of the year, seeing that Rosh HaShanah and The Day of Atonement are in the same festival season.
 
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