Post-trib Rapture or Pre-Wrath Rapture

[whirlwind]

Until you accept that the righteous have been resurrected and return to heaven for the 1000 years in full bodily form, we are aren't going to get anywhere.

Do you see the righteous as the elect, for I don't? Where is that written, "in full bodily form?" "Full bodily form" would be in flesh. We are told....

• 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit corruption.

As far as why the dead are resurrected again, they have not been fully judged. They do not get their punishment at their physical death, thus they must be judged.

I agree that they haven't been "fully judged." Why is that? As previously quoted...

• 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

He judges the spiritually living and the spiritually dead. It is decided then so...why wait to do away with them? Why go through another judgment in order to punish them as their punishment is the second death....that of their soul.

Rev 20:5 speaks ofthe second resurrection. Your argument falls flat because the dead are resurrected again no matter what. The bible is clear on this. There IS a bodily resurrection of he wicked. This is the difference between the first resurrection for the righteous at the second coming of Christ, and the second resurrection of the wicked to face the executive judgment.

No...it speaks of..."But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The dead are the spiritually dead, no physical bodies are resurrected. The door is closed and they will not be able to be of the spiritually living until they are judged on what is done, I believe, during the millennium.....

• Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is fair. He will show everyone why they are in the position that they are in so that your Ezekiel 37 quote is fulfilled and 'every knee shall bow' to acknowledge that God was fair and just in His dealings and punishment is deserved.

That's my point. God is fair. Look around you Guibox. Look at those raised in Islamic countries, those raised as Hindus, those raised with atheist parents. Those raised in abject poverty, hatred and sheer ignorance and stupidity. Among them, even though they don't acknowledge, know of, or recognize Jesus...you will find righteous, good souls. Also realize that many Christians will be taken in apostasy. Good people, righteous people but they SHALL BE, ARE BEING misled. It is written. They are the righteous. They are those that will be taught during the millennium. They are not of the first resurrection but neither are they the wicked.


Editing in....I apologize for taking the thread off topic.

 

[guibox]

Whirlwind...

1 Corinthians 15 is crystal clear that this is the first resurrection of the righteous where they will receive spiritual bodies.

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Paul then goes on to explain a bodily resurrection at the second coming and why it is so important. If there is no bodily resurrection, there is no life after death. The crux of it in verses 51-55.

This is further reiterated by Daniel 12:1-2,John 5:28-29 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

Two resurrections. The righteous at the second coming, the wicked at the end of time.
The wicked are not judged until the second resurrection when the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven with all the righteous in it.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

'This is the first resurrection' is not speaking about 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. As you notice in the NIV translation, this is bracketed. It is an inserted thought not directly relevant to the previous or following passages. Verse 5 is like an addendum in the middle of the phrase. Revelation moves out of chronology for a brief moment and then back to explaining the first part. Those who are Christ's have been reigning with Christ since the second coming.

The 'dead' mentioned in Rev 20 are the physically dead that are raised, gathered, judged and destroyed.Your 'spiritually dead' argument has no merit in Revelation 20. So when it says, the earth gave up the dead that are in it', means the spiritually dead? So 'dead' here in applying to the wicked both means physically dead and spiritually dead'? Have you done a word study on the meaning of 'dead' as it relates to this passage?

I suggest you do.

 

[whirlwind]

The passages are crystal clear to me. We disagree on their meaning.

 

[guibox]

The passages are crystal clear to me. We disagree on their meaning.

Well one of us has to be wrong. One of us is calling the apple an apple and the other is calling the apple an orange.

I suggest you start a new thread on an exegetical study of 1 Corinthians 15 so that I and the others can understand your take on this passage and what the resurrection chapter is saying. Until we've established whether this is speaking about a 1st bodily resurrection or a symbolic one of living beings, Revelation 20 will continue to be interpreted according to that light.

It is only by comparing scripture with scripture and looking at the passage without preconceived notions, allowing the context to come forth, that we can understand what it is saying.

Are you up for it?

 

[whirlwind]

The passages are crystal clear to me. We disagree on their meaning.

Well one of us has to be wrong. One of us is calling the apple an apple and the other is calling the apple an orange.

I suggest you start a new thread on an exegetical study of 1 Corinthians 15 so that I and the others can understand your take on this passage and what the resurrection chapter is saying. Until we've established whether this is speaking about a 1st bodily resurrection or a symbolic one of living beings, Revelation 20 will continue to be interpreted according to that light.

It is only by comparing scripture with scripture and looking at the passage without preconceived notions, allowing the context to come forth, that we can understand what it is saying.

Are you up for it?

Sure...but first.....

• ROLL TIDE!

It'll have to wait until tomorrow. The family gathers (even me who is not truly a football fan)

 

[veteran]

Hi all,

Please do start another post on the resurrection chapter of 1 Corinthians 15. There's a specific point within it I think many tend to miss.

There is Biblical proof of prophetic types that have multiple fulfillments until all components of the prophecy is completed.

One that might seem difficult to fathom, but really isn't, is that of the kings of the previous beast kingdoms of Daniel serving as types for Satan. In Isaiah 10 and 14 God uses the king of Assyria as a 'type' for Satan. He does the same thing using the prince and king of Tyrus in Ezek.28. One of Satan's titles is the 'rock' (lower case), while Rock (upper case) is a title for our LORD (Deut.32:31). The word Tyrus means 'rock'.

God gave a prophecy about the coming end of the island Tyre, that it would be destroyed, and it came to pass through Alexander the Great conquering it. That island was one of the major centers of world commerce in ancient times, having double walls 150 feet tall. It couldn't be conquered by the sea, so Alexander's army spent a lot of time moving soil out to it to build a land bridge to reach it. In Ezek.28 God reverts to a prophecy about Satan's eventual destruction, a fire within himself burning him to ashes in sight of all those who see him on earth. The whole time God is using that Tyrus analogy to point to Satan's eventual destruction, the destruction of the little lower-case "rock" of Deut.32:31, which means Satan.

In Ezek.31 is another 'type' God is giving, using the historical king of Assyria. It starts off in Ezek.31:3 about the king of Assyria, but at verse 8 speaks of him being in God's Garden (Eden). The historical king of Assyria never was in God's Gardenn of Eden, but Satan was. God is using the Assyrian as a type there to point to Satan.

At the end of Isaiah 30, God mentions the Assyrian again, but in relation to Tophet, saying that Tophet is ordained of old, for the king it is prepared, made deep and large, and piled with much wood for fire. That's a pointer to Satan being destroyed in the future lake of fire. In Rev.9 we are told the locust army has a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan). His name is given as The Destroyer in both Hebrew and the Greek.

As for the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel (especially Dan.11), again there have been PREVIOUS types PRIOR to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) is considered per history to have best fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy when he conquered Jerusalem and sacrificed swine inside the Temple and spread its broth throughout. He setup false idol worship. Antiochus did that back in 170 B.C., over 200 years prior to Christ's first coming when Jesus brought that prophecy up again in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. And mind you, the Western Wall of the old Temple complex is still standing today, so Christ's prophecy in Matt.24 that not one stone will be standing atop another there was not completed.

Christ was actually giving the events of the seven seals of Revelation 6 within the Matthew 24 chapter. Like the Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.10, the OT events serve as "ensamples" for us upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[veteran]

Sorry to get slightly off subject; someone here I think mentioned about no such thing as a multiple fulfilled prophecy in God's Word.

As for a post-trib or pre-wrath rapture, I see the prophecy in Revelation in a much more compressed timing. Jesus gave us a specific event order with three 'woes' periods that go along with the last three trumpets of Revelation. I think if those events that happen in the order of the three woes are studied, then the main order of Revelation will be better understood.

At the end of the 2nd woe, God's two witnesses in Jerusalem suddenly arise, shocking the whole world that will see them. And then a great earthquake is to happen in Jerusalem, a tenth of the city falling. Then we are told the 3rd woe comes quickly after that, which is the 7th trumpet coming of our Lord Jesus (see Rev.11). It is right then, on that 3rd woe and 7th trumpet (the "last trump" Paul mentioned), that I believe is the rapture, the gathering of the saints to Christ.

Now Acts 1 shows us that Christ is to return in like manner how He ascended into Heaven. And the Zechariah 14 scripture gives that detail of Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended, and the mount being cleaved in two, half to the north and half to the south, and His bringing all the saints there with Him. That's supposed to happen on the 7th trumpet, 3rd woe. So evidently the idea that we will be raptured off this earth is man's supposition.

In Rev.20 we are shown that the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is on the breadth of the earth, not in Heaven. And because it will be on earth for Christ's thousand years reign, that's how Satan will be allowed to lead the deceived nations up against it when the thousand years are over.

 

[guibox]

Now Acts 1 shows us that Christ is to return in like manner how He ascended into Heaven. And the Zechariah 14 scripture gives that detail of Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended, and the mount being cleaved in two, half to the north and half to the south, and His bringing all the saints there with Him. That's supposed to happen on the 7th trumpet, 3rd woe. So evidently the idea that we will be raptured off this earth is man's supposition. In Rev.20 we are shown that the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is on the breadth of the earth, not in Heaven. And because it will be on earth for Christ's thousand years reign, that's how Satan will be allowed to lead the deceived nations up against it when the thousand years are over.

Where in the Bible do we see a thousand year reign on earth. Acts merely points out to the watchers that just as Christ ascended, He will descend. However, the righteous are taken off this earth to 'meet the Lord in the air'. Nothing says that a millenial kingdom will be established while life goes on for the wicked here. Revelation 21 talks about the New Jerusalem in a setting obviously in heaven. Taken out of chronological order from Revelation 20, we see that this New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with all the saints in it AFTER the 1000 years. Hence, we see that this 1000 year reign occurs in heaven. From the details of the second coming of Christ to the city coming down from heaven, we find more evidence that the righteous do go to heaven for the 1000 years and do not inhabit this earth.

The Zechariah 14 prophecy speaks after the fact when Christ makes all things new and there is a new heaven and a new earth and the 'former things are passed away'.

 

[whirlwind]

Where in the Bible do we see a thousand year reign on earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals therof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

 

[guibox]

Where in the Bible do we see a thousand year reign on earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals therof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

You are assuming this is during the 1000 years and not when all is made new at the final end.

 

[whirlwind]

Where in the Bible do we see a thousand year reign on earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals therof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

You are assuming this is during the 1000 years and not when all is made new at the final end.

There is no assumption Guibox...He tells us:

• Revelation 20:6-8 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
  
  20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those verses tell us.....The "priests of God," the "saints," reign for the thousand years. Satan, when released, deceived the nations "of the earth" and they compass "the camp of the saints" and they are "on the breadth of the earth." God is still in heaven for His fire "came down" from Him "out of heaven."