Praying to the Saints in Heaven

[Mungo]

evenifigoalone asked in another thread "what can you tell me about praying to the saints?"
This is a big topic and I think deserves a separate thread.
I'll cover this briefly and then expand if there are any questions.

I believe the practice of praying to Mary and Saints in heaven is reasonable and scripturally valid. I want to make three propositions and demonstrate them from scripture.

But first, what do we mean by pray to them?
At it's root the word pray means to ask or entreat, so we are asking them for their intercession just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us.

1. We are encouraged to pray for others and to ask others for their prayers.
This is biblical. Paul asks people to pray for him
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20).
See also , Col 4:3, Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1.

Paul writes to Timothy "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men…" (1Tim 2:1)

2. The Saints in heaven are validly included in that
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.

“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)

When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.

3. They can and do intercede for us in heaven
God is logical. That is evident just looking at creation. Now what do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).
Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)
Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?
Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?
Now Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?

Then consider these two texts
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

 

[WIP]

2. The Saints in heaven are validly included in that
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.

How do you reconcile this with 1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time," NKJV

I'll share personal observation and admittedly it is a concern for my Catholic brothers and sisters. What I share here applies also to other things like the church itself and the Catechism of the church but this thread is about the Saints so I'll relegate my comments to that topic.

I have Sirius radio in my truck and I often enjoy listening to "The Catholic Channel" operated by the archdiocese of New York and "EWTN Global Catholic Network." As I have listened to these channels one observation I have had has been the rather high importance placed on the Saints including the related medals, pendants, and statues, and their roles or influences on the lives of those still living here on this side of heaven.

I have literally heard from Catholic hosts and callers to the radio talk shows speak about how they put so much of their faith in a medal, pendant, or statue of a particular Saint for specific purposes beyond just asking them to intercede before God on their behalf. From my perspective and observance there have been times when I've heard that more faith is placed on these than there is in God Himself and I've often wondered if this is or borders on idolatry.

Oh, I know the Catholic church has been able to find the words to eloquently defend this behavior/action but the question still remains. There have been many times while driving alone in my truck and listening to the program and what hosts as well as callers are saying when I have out loud verbally asked, "But, what does God Say?" It seems I don't hear as much mention about God's role as I do about the role of the Saints.

This is just my observation to be sure and it is as unbiased as I can make it for I am a former Catholic and I do still hold many Catholic traditions and dogma with high value. I am a member of a Lutheran church today and I have expressed with my fellow congregants how I respect, admire, and even in some cases defend some of those traditions.

Just my .

 

[Mungo]

How do you reconcile this with 1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time," NKJV

I put it back to you; if 1Tim 2:5-6 rules out us praying for each other then why do we ask people to pray for us?
Why do we pray for other people?
Why did Paul ask people to pray for him?
Why did Paul promise to pray for others?
Why did Paul instruct write immediately before that "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, or kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior"

I think Jesus is the one mediator because:
a) Only Jesus reconciles us to the Father (Rom 5:10, 2Cor 5:18-19).
b) Only Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant (Heb 9:15, 12:24).

Mary and the Saints do not mediate us to the Father as Jesus does as Covenant Mediator but they intercede for us as we do for each other.

I'll come back to the rest of your post later.

 

[Mungo]

I'll share personal observation and admittedly it is a concern for my Catholic brothers and sisters. What I share here applies also to other things like the church itself and the Catechism of the church but this thread is about the Saints so I'll relegate my comments to that topic.

I have Sirius radio in my truck and I often enjoy listening to "The Catholic Channel" operated by the archdiocese of New York and "EWTN Global Catholic Network." As I have listened to these channels one observation I have had has been the rather high importance placed on the Saints including the related medals, pendants, and statues, and their roles or influences on the lives of those still living here on this side of heaven.

I have literally heard from Catholic hosts and callers to the radio talk shows speak about how they put so much of their faith in a medal, pendant, or statue of a particular Saint for specific purposes beyond just asking them to intercede before God on their behalf. From my perspective and observance there have been times when I've heard that more faith is placed on these than there is in God Himself and I've often wondered if this is or borders on idolatry.

Oh, I know the Catholic church has been able to find the words to eloquently defend this behavior/action but the question still remains. There have been many times while driving alone in my truck and listening to the program and what hosts as well as callers are saying when I have out loud verbally asked, "But, what does God Say?" It seems I don't hear as much mention about God's role as I do about the role of the Saints.

This is just my observation to be sure and it is as unbiased as I can make it for I am a former Catholic and I do still hold many Catholic traditions and dogma with high value. I am a member of a Lutheran church today and I have expressed with my fellow congregants how I respect, admire, and even in some cases defend some of those traditions.

Just my .

I haven't heard the programs you refer to and don't know the context of what you heard so |I vcan't really comment on them, but in the Liturgies (Understanding Catholicism - Liturgy) the Church focuses very much on God.

What you are referring to belongs to what is known as popular piety part of which is the honour given to Saints in heaven. They are our fathers in faith and a recommended to us, by the Church , for the example of their lives, and/or their teaching. Just as Hebrews 11 recalls the lives and faith of the fathers in faith of Israel so we can learn from them and many people have devotion to a particular Saint or Saints, just as we often have earthly heroes.

In the Directory on Popular Piety issued by the Vatican it says:
72. Pious exercises are part of Christian worship. The Church has always been attentive to ensure that God is glorified worthily through them, and that man derives spiritual benefit from them and is encouraged to the live the Christian life.

But it also warns
64. While the Magisterium highlights the undeniable qualities of popular piety, it does not hesitate to point out dangers which can affect it: lack of a sufficient number of Christian elements such as the salvific significance of the Resurrection of Christ, an awareness of belonging to the Church, the person and action of the Holy Spirit; a disproportionate interest between the Saints and the absolute sovereignty of Jesus Christ and his mysteries; lack of direct contact with Sacred Scripture; isolation from the Church's sacramental life; a dichotomy between worship and the duties of Christian life; a utilitarian view of some forms of popular piety; the use of "signs, gestures and formulae, which sometimes become excessively important or even theatrical"(71); and in certain instances, the risk of "promoting sects, or even superstition, magic, fatalism or oppression"(72).

 

[GodsGrace]

evenifigoalone asked in another thread "what can you tell me about praying to the saints?"
This is a big topic and I think deserves a separate thread.
I'll cover this briefly and then expand if there are any questions.

I believe the practice of praying to Mary and Saints in heaven is reasonable and scripturally valid. I want to make three propositions and demonstrate them from scripture.

But first, what do we mean by pray to them?
At it's root the word pray means to ask or entreat, so we are asking them for their intercession just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us.

1. We are encouraged to pray for others and to ask others for their prayers.
This is biblical. Paul asks people to pray for him
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20).
See also , Col 4:3, Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1.

Paul writes to Timothy "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men…" (1Tim 2:1)

2. The Saints in heaven are validly included in that
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.

“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)

When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.

3. They can and do intercede for us in heaven
God is logical. That is evident just looking at creation. Now what do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).
Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)
Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?
Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?
Now Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?

Then consider these two texts
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

A couple of questions:

1. If only God is omnipresent, how do those that are in heaven even hear our prayers?

2. I truly doubt there is praying in heaven.
Maybe prayers of praise.

 

[Mungo]

A couple of questions:

1. If only God is omnipresent, how do those that are in heaven even hear our prayers?

2. I truly doubt there is praying in heaven.
Maybe prayers of praise.

We don't know the exact mechanism but we believe that it is by God’s will that they are allowed to hear our prayers to them. God makes things known to people as he wills and makes possible.

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, and he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." (Acts 9:10-12)

God communicates to Ananias that Paul is praying and that he (Ananias) must go and lay hands on Paul. God communicates to Paul that Ananias will come to him and lay hands on him to receive his sight. Neither are omniscient yet they know things that only God can know. They know because God wills that they know and makes it known to them.

God has only given us glimpses of what goes on in heaven. Paul was taken up into heaven “and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter” (2Cor 12:4). We cannot expect to understand God’s ways in any detail. Yet we do know some things, if not in details.

We know that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.
"I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." (Lk 15:7)
"And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I [the angel Raphael] brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One." (Tobit 12:12)

We are also told:
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)

If the Saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).

This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).

So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect.

Moreover the Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.

 

[Edward]

Mary and the Saints do not mediate us to the Father as Jesus does as Covenant Mediator but they intercede for us as we do for each other.

I agree with this.

From our perspective, the mother of Jesus, Mary, has been in Heaven with her Son for a long time now. Does anyone think that she sits to the side and has remained quiet in Heaven? I don't think mother instincts allow that!

I think certainly she can see and hear people on earth and why wouldn't she say, son, help this man he has difficulties? And as long as there is a distiction in ones heart that they do not pray to Mary as worship but asking if she can intercede alone...what's wrong with that? I don't recall any scriptures that say do not pray to Saints, only have no Gods before me.

Before Jesus left earth and ascended to God He said, I go to my God and your God.

idk, this is sort of a tricky question. It would seem ok, but one likes to be sure.

 

[JLB]

Some scriptures that instruct us about prayer —


But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Matthew 6:6-13


In this passage we see the instructions of Jesus Christ teaching His Apostles how and how not to pray. Jesus says pray to your Father in heaven.


“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:7-11


Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
John 16:22-23

• Jesus teaches His Apostles to pray directly to their Father in heaven because our Father in heaven loves us —

In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.” John 16:26-27


Jesus reiterated that they didnt need anyone, not even Himself to pray to the Father on their behalf, but they themselves should go directly to their Heavenly Father because the Father loves us and desires to have a personal relationship with each of us.

This is the access to God the Father, Jesus provided for each of us through His shed blood on the cross.

The veil was rent signifying that access directly to God was made for by His sacrifice, once and for all.


And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
Matthew 27:50-51


Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 1 John 5:14-15





JLB

 

[JLB]

And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Praying the “rosary” using beads to count the times that a prayer is to be repeated over and over again, seems to disregard the words of Jesus Christ about vain repetitions.

Maybe someone could explain why this practice of repeating a phrase over and over 50 times while praying to Mary came about.



Example —


https://hallow.com/2019/09/23/how-to-pray-the-rosary/

Hail Mary​

“Hail Mary, full of grace …”

Although the repeated Hail Mary is addressed directly to Mary, it is to Jesus that the act of love is ultimately directed, with her and through her.
St. John Paul II

The Hail Mary prayer is the heart of the Rosary. We pray 10 Hail Mary’s within each of the five decades – totaling 50 Hail Mary prayers at the end of your devotion. This prayer, in which we ask Mary for her intercession, is also rooted in Scripture. The first two lines come from the first chapter of Luke, when the Angel Gabriel announces Christ’s coming at the Annunciation and when Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth, greets Mary at the Visitation.

Glory Be​

“Glory Be to the Father …”

The Glory Be is often referred to as the doxology, a word that comes from Greek, meaning “an expression of praise or glory.” This prayer is quite common and straightforward — we pray for the Holy Trinity to be glorified at all times.

Fatima Prayer

“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins …”

The Fatima Prayer was given directly by Mary to three shepherd children on July 13, 1917 during her appearances in Fatima, Portugal. In this prayer, which is said at the end of each decade, we ask Jesus for mercy upon us and upon all souls.

Hail, Holy Queen

“Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy …”

The Rosary ends with this powerful prayer, which comes from the ancient tradition of monks concluding their communal prayer with the Salve Regina (a Latin chant of the Hail, Holy Queen). Reminded that Jesus is given to us through his Mother Mary, we give thanks to God for Mary’s participation in all of the saving events of Jesus’ life, death, and Resurrection.





JLB

 

[Mungo]

Some scriptures that instruct us about prayer —


But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Matthew 6:6-13


In this passage we see the instructions of Jesus Christ teaching His Apostles how and how not to pray. Jesus says pray to your Father in heaven.


“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:7-11


Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
John 16:22-23

• Jesus teaches His Apostles to pray directly to their Father in heaven because our Father in heaven loves us —

In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.” John 16:26-27


Jesus reiterated that they didnt need anyone, not even Himself to pray to the Father on their behalf, but they themselves should go directly to their Heavenly Father because the Father loves us and desires to have a personal relationship with each of us.

This is the access to God the Father, Jesus provided for each of us through His shed blood on the cross.

The veil was rent signifying that access directly to God was made for by His sacrifice, once and for all.


And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
Matthew 27:50-51


Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 1 John 5:14-15





JLB

None of those Scriptures say we must ONLY pray to the Father.
The quote you give - 1John 5:14-15 - shows that we can also go to Jesus and "He hears us" and "we have the petitions that we have asked of Him" So it's not just the Father that we ask.
Moreover Paul tells us that Jesus intercedes for us (Rom 8:34) and the Spirit intercedes for us (Rom 8:26) .

As I think I showed in the OP asking for the intercession of those in Heaven is reasonable and scripturally valid.
Yes, of course we can go directly to the Father but as a I showed those in heaven are presenting our prayers to God.

 

[Mungo]

Praying the “rosary” using beads to count the times that a prayer is to be repeated over and over again, seems to disregard the words of Jesus Christ about vain repetitions.

JLB

It could be so if people just do it as some sort of ritual that has to be performed. But it is not meant to be that and I don't think it normally is.
As Pope Paul VI wrote in Marialis Cultus
There has also been felt with greater urgency the need to point out once more the importance of a further essential element in the Rosary, in addition to the value of the elements of praise and petition, namely the element of contemplation. Without this the Rosary is a body without a soul, and its recitation is in danger of becoming a mechanical repetition of formulas and of going counter to the warning of Christ: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Mt. 6:7). By its nature the recitation of the Rosary calls for a quiet rhythm and a lingering pace, helping the individual to meditate on the mysteries of the Lord's life as seen through the eyes of her who was closest to the Lord. In this way the unfathomable riches of these mysteries are unfolded.

 

[Edward]

Some scriptures that instruct us about prayer —


But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Matthew 6:6-13


In this passage we see the instructions of Jesus Christ teaching His Apostles how and how not to pray. Jesus says pray to your Father in heaven.


“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:7-11


Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
John 16:22-23

• Jesus teaches His Apostles to pray directly to their Father in heaven because our Father in heaven loves us —

In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.” John 16:26-27


Jesus reiterated that they didnt need anyone, not even Himself to pray to the Father on their behalf, but they themselves should go directly to their Heavenly Father because the Father loves us and desires to have a personal relationship with each of us.

This is the access to God the Father, Jesus provided for each of us through His shed blood on the cross.

The veil was rent signifying that access directly to God was made for by His sacrifice, once and for all.


And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
Matthew 27:50-51


Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 1 John 5:14-15





JLB

That's as good as a correction to me. I stand corrected.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Interesting! Thanks for the explanation

I have also heard that asking departed giants in the faith to pray for you was also practiced in Judaism. Do you know if this is the case?

 

[Mungo]

Interesting! Thanks for the explanation

I have also heard that asking departed giants in the faith to pray for you was also practiced in Judaism. Do you know if this is the case?

I think that is true. According to a book I have the Jews considered Rachel to be a powerful intercessor.
Rachel was buried outside Bethlehem rather in the family tomb and the book quotes a rabbinic tradition that says "Jacob foresaw that exiles would pass on from thence, there he buried her so that she might pray mercy for them". Also Jesus implies the possibility in Luke 16:19-31.

 

[jaybo]

I think that is true. According to a book I have the Jews considered Rachel to be a powerful intercessor.
Rachel was buried outside Bethlehem rather in the family tomb and the book quotes a rabbinic tradition that says "Jacob foresaw that exiles would pass on from thence, there he buried her so that she might pray mercy for them". Also Jesus implies the possibility in Luke 16:19-31.

You think that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is meant literally? Oy vey!

Where in the Bible are believers instructed to pray to dead people?

 

[Mungo]

You think that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is meant literally? Oy vey!

You think Jesus would give an teaching that could not possibly be true? Wow!

Where in the Bible are believers instructed to pray to dead people?

The Saints in heaven are not dead. They are very much alive.

 

[jaybo]

You think Jesus would give an teaching that could not possibly be true? Wow!

The Saints in heaven are not dead. They are very much alive.

Clearly you don't understand what a parable is. For example, you think the parable of the landowner and the tenants in Matthew 21 is literal? Or the parable of the sower in Matthew 13?

You are really in trouble; you're misunderstanding the teachings of Christ!

 

[Mungo]

Clearly you don't understand what a parable is. For example, you think the parable of the landowner and the tenants in Matthew 21 is literal? Or the parable of the sower in Matthew 13?

You are really in trouble; you're misunderstanding the teachings of Christ!

I do understand what a parable is. But I don't think Jesus would give false teaching in a parable.

 

[jaybo]

I do understand what a parable is. But I don't think Jesus would give false teaching in a parable.

By your posts you don't understand what a parable is. It is a story to illustrate a principle, not a factual report.

Dictionary.com: The meaning of PARABLE is a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

 

[Mungo]

By your posts you don't understand what a parable is. It is a story to illustrate a principle, not a factual report.

Dictionary.com: The meaning of PARABLE is a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

In that case you are claiming that Jesus taught false truth, principles or moral issues.