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Pre-incarnate appearances of Christ

TonyChanYT

Member
After Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis 32: 27 he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?”

That might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. His name was not disclosed.

Many centuries later, before Samson was born in Judges 13: 17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?” 18 And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful [H6883] ?”

That also might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. Again, his name was not disclosed.

A few centuries later, Isaiah prophesied Messianically in (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) 9:6 Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder [H6382] and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

With the word "Wonder", Isaiah seemed to link the coming Messiah with the angel of the LORD who spoke to Manoah.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!

Again, there was the mysterious name.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3: 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Jesus seemed to be alluding to ascending and descending from heaven in Pro. 30:4.

A good case can be made that Jesus had some preincarnate interactions with some people on Earth.
 
After Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis 32: 27 he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?”

That might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. His name was not disclosed.

Many centuries later, before Samson was born in Judges 13: 17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?” 18 And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful [H6883] ?”

That also might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. Again, his name was not disclosed.

A few centuries later, Isaiah prophesied Messianically in (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) 9:6 Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder [H6382] and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

With the word "Wonder", Isaiah seemed to link the coming Messiah with the angel of the LORD who spoke to Manoah.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!

Again, there was the mysterious name.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3: 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Jesus seemed to be alluding to ascending and descending from heaven in Pro. 30:4.

A good case can be made that Jesus had some preincarnate interactions with some people on Earth.
I believe you are correct.
The Word had interactions with folks before Jesus was born of a woman.
 
Greetings TonyChanYT,
After Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis 32: 27 he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?”
That might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. His name was not disclosed.
The following states that Jacob wrested with an Angel, not Jesus.
Hosea 12:2–4 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I believe you are correct.
The Word had interactions with folks before Jesus was born of a woman.
Amen, the living word has the power of new born again life. . the dying flesh seen profits for nothing.

Yes Jacob wrestled with thoughts of God as vision in a dream. God's word over came as the second birth,. Israel then knew God would never leave or forsake him

A vision of sonship just like that of Melchizedek a precursor of the Son of man, Jesus. Flesh signified as sinful a must What the eyes see was needed to demonstrate to the world the forgiveness of sin redemption. .



Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The believers that had prophecy they were trusting in .The three day and night three part promised demonstration (bruise heel in the garden of Gethsemane ) along with the cross the emblem of sufferings and shame that the world did bring on him .He fulfilled the heel prophecy for the waiting believers as prophesied and crushed the head of the serpent who did fall and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world .

I would offer .I believe that shows God works in the flesh to both will and empower mankind to do His will according to His good pleasure .(Philippians 2:13) Yoked with His labor of love we can perform it if we hear and not harden our new hearts . . . . .. rest in the green pasture .
 
After Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis 32: 27 he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?”

That might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. His name was not disclosed.

Many centuries later, before Samson was born in Judges 13: 17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?” 18 And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful [H6883] ?”

That also might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. Again, his name was not disclosed.

A few centuries later, Isaiah prophesied Messianically in (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) 9:6 Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder [H6382] and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

With the word "Wonder", Isaiah seemed to link the coming Messiah with the angel of the LORD who spoke to Manoah.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!

Again, there was the mysterious name.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3: 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Jesus seemed to be alluding to ascending and descending from heaven in Pro. 30:4.

A good case can be made that Jesus had some preincarnate interactions with some people on Earth.
It was seen as an angel
Hosea 12
In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
4He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there
5the Lord God Almighty,
the Lord is his name!

6But you must return to your God;
maintain love and justice,
and wait for your God always.
 
It was seen as an angel
Hosea 12
In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
4He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there
5the Lord God Almighty,
the Lord is his name!

6But you must return to your God;
maintain love and justice,
and wait for your God always.

Yes, message of God working in Jaob sent as vision in the night No need to think of shift changers which some do. Many times when Jesus would disappear the father hid him them from sight; teaching us how to walk by His faith or understanding .

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

God is not a man he has no face to behold. Face to face in his revealed knowledge .Faith (unseen eternal) to the same power of love
 
Greetings again TonyChanYT,
Can you quote my words where I said they were not angels?
After Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis 32: 27 ...
That might be a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.
Also your thread title "Pre-incarnate appearances of Christ" assumes that some of the appearances are Jesus and not Angels. I believe that ALL the appearances were Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again TonyChanYT,


Also your thread title "Pre-incarnate appearances of Christ" assumes that some of the appearances are Jesus and not Angels. I believe that ALL the appearances were Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor
Is not Christ the anointing or teaching Holy Spirit of God as our invisible God?

The appearance of the Son of man, Jesus in whom the Spirit of Christ worked in I would think . He works mutually in all sons of God.

2 Corinthians 4:13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

In that way if a person focuses on the temporal mankind seen Jesus as the Son of man then the wrath comes .
God is not a man(creation) he used creting to demonstrate i his invisibles power of faith needed to rise up the dead

Roman 1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 
Why not both?
Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (𝔓46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

John 8:58

“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (John 8:58)
הֵשִׁיב לָהֶם יֵשׁוּעַ׃ ״אָמֵן אָמֵן אֲנִי אוֹמֵר לָכֶם, בְּטֶרֶם הֱיוֹת אַבְרָהָם, אֲנִי הוּא.<\p>
"So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." The lead up to his statement is this:

“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)

Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).

So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.

John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'

The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "

And Isaiah 43:10 reads

““You are My witnesses,” declares יהוה, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He (ἐγώ εἰμι)...”
Compare this with the words of Jesus to John in Revelation 1:7:

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am (ἐγώ εἰμι) the first and the last..."
Revelation 22:13, 16

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Also Isaiah 43:13, 46:4, 48:12. Isaiah 52:6 is interesting because there יהוה says:

"Therefore my people will know my name in that day. For I am (ἐγώ εἰμι/אני הוא), behold I, the one speaking."
There appears to be a subtle pointer here to Exodus 3:14.

In John 10:28-30 we read:

“...I give eternal life to them... and no one will snatch them out of my hand... and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.”
Jesus claims to give eternal life and then puts himself on a par with the Father.

“The Judeans picked up stones again to stone him... “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”
Notice it says they picked up stones again. John is referring back to John 8:59 and so tying the charge for both occasions. What did they see as the blasphemy then as well as on this occasion? Claiming deity.

"Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
Many interpret Jesus’ words as directed towards human rulers but a reading of the source, Psalm 82 shows that he is referring to the divine council in heaven who were judged for injustice (to whom the word of God came). If that is the case then what Jesus is asserting is that Tanakh describes the divine council as ‘gods’ and so he too is God but not merely of the created heavenly class but as ontologically one with the uncreated, all powerful Most High Father. “If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me; but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

He is not just elohim but, as stated in John 5, the unique Son of God.

“Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.” (John 10:28–39)
They knew what he was claiming and that’s why they continued to try and take him.

Here is Psalm 82 “Elohim takes His stand in the divine assembly (עדת-אל); He judges in the midst of the gods (אלהים). How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? ...I said, “You are gods (אלהים אתם), And all of you are sons of the Most High. “Nevertheless you will die like men (כאדם תמותון) And fall like any one of the princes.”

Key points:

Not a hint of the Law of Moses, of Sinai, the nation or Torah, in the Psalm. Jesus points to the Tanakh’s acknowledgement of the existence of other elohim (also called malakhim and ‘sons of elohim’) in the heavenly court. There are divine beings in the Tanakh but only one eternal Elohim who is יהוה and Jesus is one with this Elohim who is both יהוה and Father. The other implication is that he is Lord of this heavenly council. The Tanakh points to one who is Angel and yet God.

Some interpret certain uses of elohim as meaning human judges but Heisler asserts, "However, neither judges nor elders are found in Exodus 21, and the Old Testament never uses the term elohim for human leaders anywhere else. Many presume that Exodus 18 refers to the elders as elohim, but the text never makes that equation. Elohim there refers, as usual, to God. A comparison of Exodus 21:1–6 (אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים) with its parallel in Deuteronomy 15:12–18 further weakens this argument." (Michael S. Heiser, The Bible Unfiltered: Approaching Scripture on Its Own Terms (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017), 63.) “The Jewish authorities got the message, too—they charged him with blasphemy. Now ask yourself, why would they do that if all Jesus was saying was “you mortal Jews get to call yourselves sons of God, and אלהים, so I can, too.” That makes no sense at all.”

Michael S. Heiser, The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, First Edition. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2015)






More to give-should you want-and if I'm off topic-my apologies.
Johann.
 
Greetings Johann!@#,
John 8:58 "So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
I consider that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" the same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. It is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.
Not only had he seen Abraham
When did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus' day, and what is this referring to?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Many interpret Jesus’ words as directed towards human rulers but a reading of the source, Psalm 82 shows that he is referring to the divine council in heaven who were judged for injustice (to whom the word of God came).
I reject this view and consider that Psalm 82:6 is speaking about the Judges in Israel and their responsibility to faithfully administer the Law, the word of God that they had received. Sadly those to whom the Psalm is addressed and by inference the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day were unfaithful as they also opposed Jesus and persecute him.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
I consider that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" the same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. It is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.
I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in Joh_1:1 and egeneto in Joh_1:14. See the contrast also in Psa_90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genēthēnai). See the same use of eimi in Joh_6:20; Joh_9:9; Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28; Joh_18:6.

Joh 8:57 The Yehuḏim, therefore, said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Aḇraham?”
Joh 8:58 יהושע said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Aḇraham came to be, I am.”e Footnote: eSee also Joh_1:1, Joh_6:62, Joh_17:5, Heb_11:26

So why "insert the "he?"


When did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus' day, and what is this referring to?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Rather weak-no offense.

To see (hina idēi). Sub-final use of hina and second aorist active subjunctive of horaō. This joy of Abraham is referred to in Heb_11:13 (saluting, aspasamenoi, the promises from afar). There was a Jewish tradition that Abraham saw the whole history of his descendants in the vision of Gen_15:6., but that is not necessary here. He did look for and welcome the Messianic time,

“my day” (tēn hēmeran tēn emēn). “He saw it, and was glad” (eiden kai echarē). Second aorist active indicative of horaō and second aorist passive indicative of chairō. Ye see it and are angry!



Joh_8:56. And as regards The connection they claim with Abraham, this reflects discredit on their present attitude towards Jesus; for Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν, “Abraham in whose parentage you glory,” ἠγαλλιάσατο ἵνα ἴδῃ τὴν ἡμέραν τὴν ἐμήν, “rejoiced to see my day”. The day of Christ is the time of His earthly manifestation: τῆς ἐπιδημίας αὐτοῦ τῆς μετὰ σαρκός, Cyril. See Luk_17:22-26; where the plural expresses the same as the singular here. “To see” the day is “to be present” at it, “to experience” it; cf. Eurip., Hecuba, 56, δούλειον ἦμαρ εἶδες, and the Homeric νόστιμον ἦμαρ ἰδέσθαι. ἵνα ἴδῃ cannot here have its usual Johannine force and be epexegetical (Burton, Moods, etc.), nor as Holtzmann says = ὅτι ὄψοιτο, because in this case the εἶδε καὶ ἐχάρη would be tautological. Euthymius gives the right interpretation: ἠγαλλ., ἤγουν, ἐπεθύμησεν (similarly Theophylact), and the meaning is “Abraham exulted in the prospect of seeing,” or “that he should see”. This he was able to do by means of the promises given to him.—καὶ εἶδε, “and he saw it,” not merely while he was on earth (although this seems to have been the idea the Jews took up from the words, see Joh_8:57); for this kind of anticipation Jesus uses different language, Mat_13:17, and at the utmost the O.T. saints could be described as πόρρωθεν ἰδόντες, Heb_11:13; but he has seen it in its actuality. This involves that Abraham has not died so as to be unconscious, Joh_8:52, and cf. Mar_12:26.


I reject this view and consider that Psalm 82:6 is speaking about the Judges in Israel and their responsibility to faithfully administer the Law, the word of God that they had received. Sadly those to whom the Psalm is addressed and by inference the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day were unfaithful as they also opposed Jesus and persecute him.

You reject this view since you are dead set against the Pre-incarnate Christ Jesus.
Shalom
Johann.
 
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I reject this view and consider that Psalm 82:6 is speaking about the Judges in Israel and their responsibility to faithfully administer the Law, the word of God that they had received. Sadly those to whom the Psalm is addressed and by inference the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day were unfaithful as they also opposed Jesus and persecute him.
“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)

Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).

So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.

John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'

The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "

And Isaiah 43:10 reads

““You are My witnesses,” declares יהוה, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He (ἐγώ εἰμι)...”
Compare this with the words of Jesus to John in Revelation 1:7:

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am (ἐγώ εἰμι) the first and the last..."
Revelation 22:13, 16

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Also Isaiah 43:13, 46:4, 48:12. Isaiah 52:6 is interesting because there יהוה says:

"Therefore my people will know my name in that day. For I am (ἐγώ εἰμι/אני הוא), behold I, the one speaking."
There appears to be a subtle pointer here to Exodus 3:14.

In John 10:28-30 we read:

“...I give eternal life to them... and no one will snatch them out of my hand... and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.”
Jesus claims to give eternal life and then puts himself on a par with the Father.

“The Judeans picked up stones again to stone him... “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”
Notice it says they picked up stones again. John is referring back to John 8:59 and so tying the charge for both occasions. What did they see as the blasphemy then as well as on this occasion? Claiming deity.

"Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

Many interpret Jesus’ words as directed towards human rulers but a reading of the source, Psalm 82 shows that he is referring to the divine council in heaven who were judged for injustice (to whom the word of God came).

If that is the case then what Jesus is asserting is that Tanakh describes the divine council as ‘gods’ and so he too is God but not merely of the created heavenly class but as ontologically one with the uncreated, all powerful Most High Father.
“If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me; but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

I can understand you reject every and anything if it does not align with your theology-but Scripture is very clear re the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus.
Shalom Achi
Johann.
 
I consider that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" the same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. It is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.

God is not a man (creation). God who has no form used form as his witness to "let there be" and "it was good". The law of faith. God's labor of love.

Whose words was the prophet Jesus as the Son of man speaking when he said "I am" he who was before Abraham if not from the father? I would think Christ is the anointing Holy Spirit.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

He does the works of giving His understanding.

Is not the anointing Spirit of Christ our teacher guide and comforter who brings to our mind the things he previously has taught us? He work in in every believers yoked with Christ.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

Below the father gave the power of his word to his prophet Jesus the Son of man to condemn as the I am when the word of God entered thier hard heart they fell backward as if slain in the Spirit (the power of death)
And by the tongue as the power of life he let the others go. Sheep and goats

Three times the powerful words I am. Three denotes the end of a matter. . strike three struck him out.

John 18: 5-8 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.(spirit of judgement) Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let "these" go their way:

A picture as a parable of salvation. The sign of a true prophet apostle a spokesman as a Ambassador for God . KIngdom of priest

Peter in Matthew 16 was used to show the opposite lifting up the voice of the father of lies as if inspired by the "I Am" . I forbid you lord. . preventing the Son of man Jesus from doing the will of the father .
Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus .Blasphemy against the father who worked in the Son is not forgivable against God
 
I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let "these" go their way:
Joh 18:5 They said in reply, Yehoshua, the one from Natzeret. Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to them, Ani Hu. Now also Yehuda, the one betraying him, had stood with them.
Joh 18:6 When therefore Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach told them, Ani Hu, they recoiled and fell to the ground.
Joh 18:7 Therefore, again he questioned them, Whom do you seek? And they said, Yehoshua, the one from Natzeret.


Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

Joh 18:8 Yahshua answered, I told you that I AM; then if you seek Me, allow these to depart,-
εγω
G1473
P-1NS
ἐγώ
I
ειμι
G1510
V-PXI-1S
εἰμί
I exist

Not nit picking.
Shalom
Johann.
 
Greetings again Johann!@#,
I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God.
John 8:56–58 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (egō eimi).
You claim that there is no doubt that Jesus claims eternal existence here in John 8:58 with the absolute phrase used of God, and yet you give a list of other occurrences of the same phrase in other passages. And by the way, I consider Exodus 3:14 should be transalted as "I will be" as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson and many other scholars.
See the same use of eimi in Joh_6:20; Joh_9:9; Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28; Joh_18:6. ... So why "insert the "he?"
I am not sure if you claim that some of these also represent "the absolute phrase used of God."

To repeat what I said in my post, my main claim here is that I prefer that John 8:58 should be translated “I am he”, the same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. This is part of the theme in John’s Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ. You have not responded to these two verses except in your list above "See the same use of eimi in John 8:24 and John 8:28." Let us look at some of the passages and also a few others that you have not quoted.

The following are some of the verses that are part of this theme, and none of these have the rendition “I AM”, showing that this concept is incorrect and should not be part of John 8:58.
John 1:19-20 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am (egō eimi) not the Christ.

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (egō eimi) he.

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (egō eimi), ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he (egō eimi), and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


The above references demonstrate that there is some difficulty in translating the Greek, but in none of the above are the Greek words rendered “I AM” or even “I am”, but the KJV translators saw the necessity of translating all of these as “I am he(egō eimi). The following is another occurrence of the same Greek words, and these words are not speaking about Jesus, but refer to the blind man:
John 9:8-9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. (egō eimi).

Thus I suggest that all of the earlier references are part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ. This corresponds closely with the ultimate purpose of John’s Gospel, which is stated in the following:
John 20:31-32 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This is the ultimate purpose of John’s Gospel and a correct understanding of his Gospel record excludes the wrong teaching of the Trinity, as his record clearly teaches that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
Rather weak-no offense.
I believe that John 8:56 is speaking of Abraham's anticipation of the ministry of Jesus, but also specifically of the sacrifice of Christ whereby the way of life through resurrection would be opened:
Genesis 22:13–14 (KJV): 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’.
I understand Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham received his promises and it was anticipated that he would be greater than Abraham, for example:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
You reject this view since you are dead set against the Pre-incarnate Christ Jesus.
I reject that view after carefully considering all the related passages. Is the following speaking about a Divine Council or the misdeeds of unjust Judges:
Psalm 82:2–4 (KJV): 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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