Precious little written down from the MAIN figure.

[Orion]

Why is it that, even though Jesus is the MAIN and most important figure/person in the Bible, very little is written down from what he said? They even make a point of saying that "too much was said and done to place into words", but then you have a HUGE amount of stuff written down by Paul, and others (Paul not even being in Jesus's presence), yet very little "red text". I would think that everything possible that came from Jesus would have been recorded, since he was the Messiah, and those who wrote it, knew it. But this isn't the case. Jesus has a relatively small section, repeated 4 times with minor differences, in 4 gospels, and the rest is from or ABOUT someone else and their travels.

That isn't even taking into account the mass of the Old Testiment.

I would have rather heard exactly from the mouth of Jesus about the topics that we have to read from Paul and others, and HOPE that they were interpreting the inspiration correctly. :-?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Come now, Orion.
You can't get a grip on what He has given you.
What could you possibly do with more?

 

[Free]

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Joh 21:24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

 

[kenan]

besides its not really about what he said but what he did (what he said is nonetheless very important though)

 

[Orion]

First of all, gabby, that was unfair of you!!!

Secondly, I think what I'm asking here is very valid. What Jesus said DOES matter to me more than what Paul said, or John, or anyone else who also wrote in the book. But instead, we hear view points from Paul about his thoughts on marriage, women in the church, etc. and I would have rather heard from Jesus about such things. Jesus seemed to have more love and respect of women than the men of Judaism and even early Christianity. But besides that, John 21:25 (which was the verse I was mentioning in the opening post) makes a claim that so many other things were done that could not have been written down. . . . yet the Bible has a LOT more in it than Jesus's own words, which are a fraction of the pages. That's why I say "precious little". When Jesus is the reason why we're all here, I would have loved to have heard more directly from Him about many other topics than to weed through the commentaries, inspirations, and interpretations that transpired after His departure. I say that because we aren't robots with a built in "dictation machine". What would Jesus have said about [for example] how women should be in the church?

*disclaimer - This is NOT a discussion about "women in the church", that's just an example I could think of at the moment.*

 

[handy]

It's hard to say why something wasn't done. I have often wished that there were clearer texts on certain issues, as well as more from Jesus and the apostles. Just a few more clarifying texts, and we probably wouldn't have half of the disagreements in the church.

But, Gabby does have a point. What are you doing with what you do know? If Jesus is Who He says He is, then obviously He feels that what you have before you is sufficient to come to know Him as millions, if not billions, already have. Although it would be interesting to know Jesus' specific thoughts on women or homosexuality or abortion, there is more than enough in the Gospels to understand the principles that He wants us to live by, and therefore these other issues can fall into place.

If I may make a suggestion, when you read through the Scriptures, including the letters of Paul (Paul gets WAY, WAY too much bad press and was one of the most progressive thinkers regarding women of his and even our time) ask that the Holy Spirit enable you to understand what God want's you to know. Just as the Holy Spirit was able to inspire the writings in the first place, He is more than able to inspire your understanding of it now.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Orion,

Jesus doesn't really say anything that didn't come from the way the OT was supposed to have been intepreted in the first place and I think if you take an honest look at Mt 5 thru 7, you'll see what I mean. Take this verse for example; For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Without a proper understanding of the history of Israel which led up to the time of Jesus, this text can be very ambiguous to some which like the manner in which the Pharisees interpreted scripture, it would be misapplied.

When you read Paul's letters, or John's, Luke's or Peter's, don't only read what they said, but look how they said it and take into acocunt who they said it to and what prompted them to write the things they wrote. If you can begin to do this, then you will see the Words that Jesus spoke put in action as it applies to our daily lives.

I hope this helps.
God Bless.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

First of all, gabby, that was unfair of you!!!

Secondly, I think what I'm asking here is very valid. What Jesus said DOES matter to me more than what Paul said, or John, or anyone else who also wrote in the book. But instead, we hear view points from Paul about his thoughts on marriage, women in the church, etc. and I would have rather heard from Jesus about such things. Jesus seemed to have more love and respect of women than the men of Judaism and even early Christianity. But besides that, John 21:25 (which was the verse I was mentioning in the opening post) makes a claim that so many other things were done that could not have been written down. . . . yet the Bible has a LOT more in it than Jesus's own words, which are a fraction of the pages. That's why I say "precious little". When Jesus is the reason why we're all here, I would have loved to have heard more directly from Him about many other topics than to weed through the commentaries, inspirations, and interpretations that transpired after His departure. I say that because we aren't robots with a built in "dictation machine". What would Jesus have said about [for example] how women should be in the church?

*disclaimer - This is NOT a discussion about "women in the church", that's just an example I could think of at the moment.*

Orion,
I have asked you before for your faith statement. You claim that you are a Christian. You have also posted many, many Scriptures that you state that you do not take literally.

If you have posted somewhere what you believe and why you believe it, I would appreciate the link to it. If not, I would ask you again to do so.

Orion, I would like to know exactly what parts of Scripture that you believe verbatim. What do you believe about God? The attributes of God? The Bible?

 

[Free]

Orion,

I posted those verses for a reason. The main one that answers your question is this:

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

There could have been a lot more written, as John states, but enough was written so that we may believe in Christ. The Bible is far from exhaustive but says enough about our origins, our condition, the remedy for that condition, and the final state of all things, that it ought to lead us to repentance and salvation through Christ. The main focus of Scripture is creation's redemption so there is no need to be exhaustive on all topics, as nice it would be.

 

[destiny]

I believe the bible is so inspired by God until every word is from the same source no matter who the writer(vessel) is. If you believe Jesus was God in the flesh and that the bible is the word OF GOD, then when you read any part of scripture you are hearing from God.
I can't see it any other way.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16)

 

[Orion]

I believe the bible is so inspired by God until every word is from the same source no matter who the writer(vessel) is. If you believe Jesus was God in the flesh and that the bible is the word OF GOD, then when you read any part of scripture you are hearing from God.
I can't see it any other way.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16)

Well, I don't believe that inspiration means "exact dictation". A painter is inspired by a sunset to paint it. That doesn't mean that he captured it in it's fullness. . . . in fact the greatest painter in the world would not be able to fully capture even a mediocre sunset as seen in person. The do the best they can. . . . . . same for the biblical texts. They do the best they can with what they were given (ie. Hebrew, Greek, even English languages). Believe me, the fulness of God can never be adequately expressed through mere written words on a page.

Even so, I would have found it more pleasing to see exact quotes from a member of the Godhead than what others had to believe they were getting divinely from God.

 

[destiny]

I trust in Gods soverignty completely, in that it was nothing for Him in the fullness of His great power to use a little vessel of flesh to write down His words and be a witness of His Spirit.
God is God. When you read the scriptures under the tutorial of the Holy Spirit, He has communicated with you. You cannot capture God in His fullness in this life and live, His holiness alone would kill you; but scripture reveals to us His nature, character, and instructions for ALL we need in this life, coupled with His spirit living in us.

 

[Orion]

I trust in Gods soverignty completely, in that it was nothing for Him in the fulness of His great power to use a little vessel of flesh to write down His words and be a witness of His Spirit.
God is God. When you read the scriptures under the tutorial of the Holy Spirit, He has communicated with you. You cannot capture God in His fulness in this life and live, His holiness alone would kill you; but scripture reveals to us His nature, character, and instructions for ALL we need in this life, coupled with His spirit living in us.

And why do we believe that "His holiness alone would kill us"? Because someone wrote that down, and it ended up in our Bible. Here's my problem. And I've said this before, where man is involved, things are going to get screwed up, misinterpretted, maligned, changed, misunderstood, etc. ....

I believe that the Holy Spirit can give us direction in our life. But I am not so sure that every single phrase or word that is in our modern Bible was meant to be there, or was all encompassing, or even left out some very important information for us today. Men decided which books they felt were holy, and which ones not. Before that, there was someone who had to decide what part of those books were from God, or inputs from the writer.

Let me ask this, . . . . of those who wrote what we have in our biblical text, . . . . what OTHER things did they write that didn't get into the Bible we have today? Who determined that what they wrote was or was not from God? What happened to their other writings? DID they do other writings?

Even when we look at the texts that were of Jesus's own words, we would have to be sure it was a legitimate happening. I would say that most were. I just wish there were more added from the main figure of the whole religion and less from other men. At least with Jesus, there would have been no problems with "determining the inspiration and what it means". You can call me a heretic if you want, but I just can't assume that every single word from Paul, James, John, etc. were directly and strictly quoted from the mouth of God. I mean, how long were the disciples with Jesus? There would have been PLENTY of time to write down a LOT of things that Jesus was teaching them and, in turn, teaching future generations. How much time did they sit around a camp fire and talk, or discuss things during the afternoon time, or at meals? How much could have been written down about a lot of topics in His time He was here???? :-?

 

[destiny]

Again, i'll say this, then i'll be quiet: Is God powerful enough to override the will and flaws of man in order to give us His written word? Can we completely trust in Gods ability to give us what we need OVER mans ability to err?

If you don't feel God is big enough then deception has already done its work.


Thats all

 

[Orion]

God rarely does this, . . . . .ever. If I'm "decieved", then so be it. But I cannot, and will not, put my trust in what men wrote down, even if they SAID it was from God. Many people have claimed to have received words from God that have proven false, and damaging to others.

But, the disciples had more than 3 years to document the words from who would be the most influential person in the world, past or future, and they failed. Then they make a lame excuse that "it would be too much to write". They hardly wrote anything, when you take into account the multitude of words written down after Jesus was no longer here. They had an awesome opportunity to document what Jesus wanted them, and us, to know. . . . much more than what we have, and though those words were great, I would have rather heard more directly from one who came from where we're going.

I see John 21:25 as a huge cop-out. They could have written MUCH more than they did.

 

[handy]

Orion,

I don't want you to take what I'm about to say in the wrong way. I'm not trying to offend here, just to give you some food for thought:

You said:

But, the disciples had more than 3 years to document the words from who would be the most influential person in the world, past or future, and they failed. Then they make a lame excuse that "it would be too much to write". They hardly wrote anything, when you take into account the multitude of words written down after Jesus was no longer here. They had an awesome opportunity to document what Jesus wanted them, and us, to know. . . . much more than what we have, and though those words were great, I would have rather heard more directly from one who came from where we're going.

I see John 21:25 as a huge cop-out. They could have written MUCH more than they did.

Here is my question, again as food for thought, not to be offensive:

Perhaps you are desperately seeking a cop-out?

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Orion,

Here is an instance where Jesus told his disciples not to tell what they knew about Jesus... but at least we have the luxury of knowing why.

Ponder this... ask yourself some questions about why Jesus prompts them, why he tells them not to tell. Part of knocking, is figuring out the right door to knock on.

Luke 9:18-26 Once when Jesus was praying by himself, and his disciples were nearby, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say that I am?†They answered, “John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others that one of the prophets of long ago has risen.†Then he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?†Peter answered, “The Christ of God.†But he forcefully commanded them not to tell this to anyone, saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and experts in the law, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.†Then he said to them all, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it benefit a person if he gains the whole world but loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."

God bless.

 

[Orion]

Orion,

I don't want you to take what I'm about to say in the wrong way. I'm not trying to offend here, just to give you some food for thought:

You said:

But, the disciples had more than 3 years to document the words from who would be the most influential person in the world, past or future, and they failed. Then they make a lame excuse that "it would be too much to write". They hardly wrote anything, when you take into account the multitude of words written down after Jesus was no longer here. They had an awesome opportunity to document what Jesus wanted them, and us, to know. . . . much more than what we have, and though those words were great, I would have rather heard more directly from one who came from where we're going.

I see John 21:25 as a huge cop-out. They could have written MUCH more than they did.

Here is my question, again as food for thought, not to be offensive:

Perhaps you are desperately seeking a cop-out?

No offense taken. I would never purposefully search for a cop-out, it just seems that, when they apparently had SO much information (that no books could contain it all, . . . which seems like a gross over exageration to me, by the way), they could have written down more of what Jesus said. If Jesus's goal was for the salvation of man kind, and had no other motives, then he would have spent most of his time teaching these men EXACTLY what we would need to know.

But what we have are many various denominations that have doctrines different than the next denomination and even fighting amongst specific denominations about doctrine that both accuse the other of misinterpretting. More of Jesus's own words would have, most likely, stopped a lot of church fighting centuries before they started.

 

[Free]

they could have written down more of what Jesus said. If Jesus's goal was for the salvation of man kind, and had no other motives, then he would have spent most of his time teaching these men EXACTLY what we would need to know.

Did you miss my previous post? Have you read closely the passages I provided earlier?

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John's obvious point is that as to the witness of who Jesus was and what he came to Earth for, what he accomplished, the gospels are enough for salvation. What is written down is enough to bring men to a knowledge that leads to salvation, even though more could have been written. We can therefore conclude that since there is enough written more would not have been of use.

If people won't believe in Jesus based on what is already written concerning him and the way of salvation, having more writings would not make any difference.

But what we have are many various denominations that have doctrines different than the next denomination and even fighting amongst specific denominations about doctrine that both accuse the other of misinterpretting. More of Jesus's own words would have, most likely, stopped a lot of church fighting centuries before they started.

Not likely. There are numerous "other gospels" which supposedly contain the words of Christ and those only add to the confusion. There is enough written that they witness each other. What else is needed?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...
No offense taken. I would never purposefully search for a cop-out, it just seems that, when they apparently had SO much information (that no books could contain it all, . . . which seems like a gross over exageration to me, by the way), they could have written down more of what Jesus said. If Jesus's goal was for the salvation of man kind, and had no other motives, then he would have spent most of his time teaching these men EXACTLY what we would need to know..

Orion, I think that what the Christians here in the Christian forum are trying to tell you is that Jesus did give us EXACTLY what we need to know in order to be saved. This is what He said to His disciples: Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Here is what the Word of God says to those who have those who have wanted to hold fast to their own ways and their own understanding, rather than come to saving knowledge of the truth.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Have you ever asked yourself why it is that you have so much trouble understanding Scripture when there are so many Christians seem to be satisfied with the Bible and have placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ? How it is that Christians claim to have a relationship with God, when you don't see it that way? How is it that Christians go over and over the Word and claim it to be a "Living Word", full of truth, knowledge, and wisdom?

Suggested prayer for those who do not believe that the Bible is enough:
"Dear God, I pray that you would open my eyes to see, my ears to hear, and grant me understanding in my heart, so that I could be converted. Lord, if the Bible is true, I want to know it. I want the assurance that it is Your Word. I want to surrender my life to You and life my life for You. Purge from me all of the fear, doubt, and unbelief that keeps me from hearing Your voice and seeing Your light. Deliver me from the enemy of the Cross that does not want me to understand the Bible.
Lord God, there are so many Christians who say that prayer works. So many Christians who say that You love people. So many Christians who say that the Bible is true. So many Christians who say that they have a relationship with you through Jesus Christ. If the things that they believe are true, then I want to believe it also.
Jesus, if You are real, if You are true, if You are indeed the Savior of the world who came to earth to tell us of the love of God, pay for our sins for us, and You died and rose from the dead on the third day, then I want to believe this also. For if all of these things are true about You, then it must also be true that You want me to believe it also. If You want me to believe this, then You also must have the ability to make me believe it. All of these Christians keep telling me that I must be willing to give my life to you. I am willing to allow you to make me believe, so that I can give my life to You."

(If you are seeking the truth, then I am praying it for you :wink: )

...
But what we have are many various denominations that have doctrines different than the next denomination and even fighting amongst specific denominations about doctrine that both accuse the other of misinterpretting.

To paraphrase Billy Sunday, "Sitting in a garage does not make you a car."

...
More of Jesus's own words would have, most likely, stopped a lot of church fighting centuries before they started.

We are living in a cursed world. Jesus Christ is not trying to fix it so much as He is on a salvage mission. Looking for people who want to spend eternity with God.
Orion, your questions in this forum are true to your character. Implying that God did it all wrong, and the people that follow Him are not up to your standards of worth, and quite clearly, you would have done it all differently.

God is right ~ all the time. All the time ~ God is right.

In the name of Jesus, may the seeds of doubt and unbelief that are attempting to be sown be completely and totally null and void, used only to quicken the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the hearts of Christians and seekers. For those who are seeking reasons to believe in Christ:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If you prayed the suggested prayer above, and you are ready to take that step into the Kingdom, then go ahead now and repent of your sin, tell God that you believe that He gave His Son to pay for your sin, that Jesus Christ shed His blood for you, rose again on the third day, and that you want to be born again.

If you made that decision, I would love to hear from you. Be sure to send me a pm :D