Precious little written down from the MAIN figure.

[Orion]

Yes, I will admit that I DO have a problem with biblical texts that cause me to think differently than a person who embraces the bible as the inerrant and literal words from God. I've been praying (earnestly) to God that my difficulties be answered, but it hasn't happened so far. And yes, I DO want them to be. So when I have questions that I find to be important, let's just see it as a given that I am searching for these answers and am hoping that someone will say something that will spark something in my spirit. I will also admit that it will be a hard task to manage, both for me, and for the person answering (or attempting to answer) my questions/comments.

For this one, I found it to be rather odd that the main figure of the Bible wasn't given a lot more "word time" when followers (even those who never walked in Jesus's presence) have MUCH more given in the Bible.

But it would seem that this has been addressed to the best of your (and others) ability, so . . . . . probably not a lot more will/can be said.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...
But it would seem that this has been addressed to the best of your (and others) ability, so . . . . . probably not a lot more will/can be said.

Perhaps this is why we keep having the same redundant conversation.
Are you going to leave this thread with this unfinished business?

First of all, I don't doubt the words of Jesus. That is the main focus of this thread. I was just saying that having more of Jesus words and less of James, Paul, John, etc. would have been better. . . . .

This is what I keep hearing over and over Orion. I hope that if I show this to you, you will hear yourself saying it. "I was just saying ...would have been better..." What I hear you say over and over is that you believe that you have a better idea. God did not do it right, he should have done it your way.. .

 

[Orion]

As I have stated before, I don't believe that the whole of what we have in this Canon, which was decided upon by men, is an all encompassing collection of the infallable and inerrant and literal words of God. If I'm wrong, then God can tell me so. But when it has been left to men to write down what the general mainstream Christian would call the exact words of God, I find myself unconvinced that what is in our Canon is everything God has said that was written down, . . . .AND that there wasn't any outside influences that added their own thoughts or interpretations that were NOT from God. At least, with the words of Jesus, although they could have been changed by men, we have the closest words that would be right from God, since Jesus came from Heaven, knows the future, and would be able to make comments that, though foreign to the early church, would solve a lot of problems in the generations to come, even stop petty fighting of "the saints" that we see today.

And I'll say this again, we have Old Testiment laws that command us to stone unruly sons to death, to kill adulterers, to kill "witches", . . . . . . .to not work on the Sabbath. How many of us are going to do that? Wasn't that one a rule that even Jesus commented on, saving a ditched ox? :-?

So, it isn't that I want it to be MY way, . . . I just find it too improbable that all the writters, all the interpretters, all the men who had a hand in what made it into Canon and what didn't . . . .were completely taken over by God so that absolutely no error would be found. Hey, if I'm wrong, I pray that God will reveal these things to me, and I would welcome the revealing. This prayer is also for "the age of the universe", "Noah's flood (what actually happened and how, and life right after it, what with a devastated landscape and MANY animals needing food, and having offspring to keep their species from dying out, and. . . . )", etc.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Yes, precious indeed. All was said by Him that needed to be said for is work to be complete. Actually if you look closely at the gospels when He was speaking He usually repeated what He was say several times. His message was clearly given. The canon of the Bible is complete.

All people that wrote the Bible were chosen to do this before the world began. You need not hope that they got it right...they most certainly knew every word to write.

 

[Orion]

Yes, precious indeed. All was said by Him that needed to be said for is work to be complete. Actually if you look closely at the gospels when He was speaking He usually repeated what He was say several times. His message was clearly given. The canon of the Bible is complete.

All people that wrote the Bible were chosen to do this before the world began. You need not hope that they got it right...they most certainly knew every word to write.

So why, then, aren't we still stoning our rebellious teens today? Why aren't we going down to the local witches coven and slaughtering them? Or any of the many other Levitical laws? :-?

 

[Orion]

*Cough*. . . . . . :-?

 

[Veritas]

So why, then, aren't we still stoning our rebellious teens today? Why aren't we going down to the local witches coven and slaughtering them? Or any of the many other Levitical laws?

I think you may be mixing up some Levitical laws with some direct commands by God and also some misunderstandings by Christians in the past. Would you like to talk about one in particular?

 

[Orion]

Uh, I thought that, if it is in the Bible, it WAS from God, so what is in even Leviticus is directed to us as well. If this isn't the case, then I may be misinformed.

But anyway, we can talk about "killing witches", since my brother and his wife are professing witches, and I'd rather not kill them!! :

 

[handy]

Uh, I thought that, if it is in the Bible, it WAS from God, so what is in even Leviticus is directed to us as well. If this isn't the case, then I may be misinformed.

But anyway, we can talk about "killing witches", since my brother and his wife are professing witches, and I'd rather not kill them!! :

Well, relax, because you don't have to! And, yes, you do seem to be somewhat misinformed.

Whatever is in the Bible is from God, but you have to place all things into their proper context. There are basically two types of laws from God in the Old Testament; temporal laws directed to Israel as a theocratic nation, and God's moral laws, which all mankind are expected to follow. There is a lot of confusion over what constitutes a temporal and a moral law, but there really needn't be.

The key is why there needn't be. It isn't because there is some list somewhere which separates the laws specific to the nation of Israel and God's moral laws. It is because we aren't under ANY Law; we are under Grace. This doesn't mean we now have a free for all and any behavior of any kind is accepted. What it means is that if one is born-again of the Spirit, one is also under the grace of the Spirit and the Spirit actively lives in one. As one responds to God in love with all of one's heart, mind and soul, one is then under the conviction of the Spirit as to how to obey God in love. This is part of the reason why James said that faith without works is dead. The Spirit is alive and active in our lives, and if we say we believe, but have no fruit to show for it, then there is something amiss.

Yeah, it helps A LOT! to have the Spirit!

Going back to burning witches though, yes, there were laws on the books of Israel in which God commanded that witches be put to death. I don't know if this was to be by burning, but I guess it really doesn't matter. Those laws were suspended when Israel ceased to be a nation anyway.

Look at it this way: Let's say that Bush's grand plan for Iraq actually gets fulfilled and Iraq becomes a modern democratic society. As of now, if a man kills his daughter for becoming a Christian, there really isn't anything done about that, many, if not most Iraqi men thinking that he is perfectly within his rights to do so. BUT, if a democratic society truly does take hold, and a man kills his daughter, he would be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Same holds true for witches today. If I lived in Israel during the time of the Old Testament and participated in the killing of a witch, I would not be punished. If I did it today, I would be thrown in prison and rightly so.

God had a plan and a reason why He did what He did with the nation of Israel in the Old Testament. That is all fulfilled now (and I hope no-one hijacks this thread regarding a future "kingdom" of Israel with Christ as King. Please post all such responses in eschatology!) and we need to be concerning ourselves with living under the new covenant of Grace rather than the Old Covenant of Law.

This isn't to say that the Old Testament has no place or value today. All Scripture, both Old and New is inspired and profitable. But, the Old Testament has a context, and we need to place it in it's proper context as foundational to the New Covenant, but not superceeding the New Covenant.

Hope this helps! And I'd much rather pray for your brother and s-i-l than kill them to be sure!

 

[Veritas]

Well, I see that handy replied with about the same thing I've been writing... but I'll go on with what I wrote too. (It's another way to look at the two basic types of laws "moral" and "temporal" that handy was talking about)

Uh, I thought that, if it is in the Bible, it WAS from God, so what is in even Leviticus is directed to us as well. If this isn't the case, then I may be misinformed.

Yes it is in the Bible... but:

Are we not to eat of a certain tree?
Are we to lead our people out of Eygpt?
Are we to fight against those in a land set out for God's people?
Are we to pray to God to light a fire on a sacrifical altar covered with water?

I'm just asking those questions to show that there are personal stories within the Bible in which God specifically asks people or groups of people to do certain things. These will always line up within a moral framework set out by God. But really, most of these things are so personal it wouldn't make sense, or wouldn't be appropriate for us to follow. However, we CAN take those personal stories and relate to them and make them our own in that way. But doing that is still different than following a command from God that was meant for someone else. So, like Jesus said, all of what is written is still valid. And he helped us tremendously as far as giving an example of what the moral framework should be by actually living here with us. He showed us how simple it really is too:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." Mark 12:28-34

But anyway, we can talk about "killing witches", since my brother and his wife are professing witches, and I'd rather not kill them!!

As far as witchcraft and sorcerery go it is a bad and evil thing. And they are our enemies. However, he is your brother... and you should love him. And even if he or her is an enemy we are told to:

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5:44

Pray for them. Love them.

That said. We should remember we are all enemies of God and it is only through the saving grace of Jesus that we can call Him "friend".. and "father".

And think about who He decides to use sometimes. You know the wise men? Astrologers.... they'd be grouped in there with the witches and sorcerers. Yet, God spoke to them in a way they would understand... and they did understand... and they followed and became a part of His story.

 

[Orion]

Not to throw a wrench in the works, but my brother still believes in God and Jesus, but also other "demi-deities" and goddesses (not sure how many, they usually talk about just the one).

As for the "killing witches" law being for that certain group, why would it be a law for them, but not for anyone who follows God? If God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", has God changed His mind about wanting witches dead, or am I [once again] missing the point? :

 

[handy]

As for the "killing witches" law being for that certain group, why would it be a law for them, but not for anyone who follows God? If God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", has God changed His mind about wanting witches dead, or am I [once again] missing the point? :

Hey, it's a hard question and I think that a lot of scholars and theologians would have differing answers. However, I don't think the issue of what the nation of Israel was to do with witches has anything to do with God's unchangeable nature. The one has to do with the laws of the land. There were a number of legal issues that the citizens of Israel were to obey, just as we are to obey our laws. God's nature hasn't changed, I'm sure that He still hates witchcraft and witches will fall under judgment. But, the judgment they face will be the judgment of all who reject Him as Savior, not the judgment of say someone like Ted Bundy who was given the death penalty for violating our law.

Part of God's unchangeable nature is that He cannot abide sin, any sin. Now, He does forgive sin, but He won't put up with it. This is why we need to repent. There have been many witches who come to repentence and leave off being a witch and start being a disciple of Christ. They will be forgiven. However, if they don't, they will face the consequences of rebellion against God.

 

[Imagican]

Four pages of replies................... Don't have the time right this minute to read them all so I will simply add this: (if it's already been offered then use this for reinforcement of THE TRUTH), There have been DIFFERENT covenants that God has offered to mankind at different times throughout history. Won't go into detail of these there but suffice is to offer that this IS TRUTH. And we are living presently under a covenant of FAITH. If EVERYTHING pertaining to God and His Son WERE written down and PROVABLE other than in the hearts of the individual there would be NO NEED for faith. For that which CAN be physically PROVEN; sight, sound, taste, etc.......... CANNOT be considered faith for there IS PHYSICAL evidence of such.

So, we HAVE been given ENOUGH to open our hearts and minds to OUR God and His Son. If one is ABLE to muster up the FAITH, MUCH of what you SEEK CAN be obtained. It's just not WRITTEN in a book that one can read as a 'text book'.

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Four pages of replies................... Don't have the time right this minute to read them all so I will simply add this: (if it's already been offered then use this for reinforcement of THE TRUTH), There have been DIFFERENT covenants that God has offered to mankind at different times throughout history. Won't go into detail of these there but suffice is to offer that this IS TRUTH. And we are living presently under a covenant of FAITH. If EVERYTHING pertaining to God and His Son WERE written down and PROVABLE other than in the hearts of the individual there would be NO NEED for faith. For that which CAN be physically PROVEN; sight, sound, taste, etc.......... CANNOT be considered faith for there IS PHYSICAL evidence of such.

So, we HAVE been given ENOUGH to open our hearts and minds to OUR God and His Son. If one is ABLE to muster up the FAITH, MUCH of what you SEEK CAN be obtained. It's just not WRITTEN in a book that one can read as a 'text book'.

MEC

If one could muster up FAITH?! Surely that is the problem. Man thinks he can apprehend God by his own devices.

 

[Imagican]

Nice point Mutz. And couldn't be more precisely 'to the point'. For that is EXACTLY what we are dealing with in this thread. Faith and the inability of many to have ANY in anything other than 'self'.

MEC

 

[unred typo]

quote by mutzrein:

If one could muster up FAITH?! Surely that is the problem. Man thinks he can apprehend God by his own devices.

God has given all men whatever any man would need to “muster up faith.†If you make the tiniest sincere effort, he will give you more reasons to believe and strengthen your little faith. “Our own devices†are what God has given us to work with, mutz. If we don’t use them to seek to do God’s will, we will lose what little we had been given.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

If one could muster up FAITH?! Surely that is the problem. Man thinks he can apprehend God by his own devices.

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Me thinks that the phrase "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed" in Mat 17:20 says that not everyone has faith that large. In fact, there are few who have that sort of faith. "If" there were, more people these days with mountain moving faith, Then Jesus would not have said what he said in Luke 18:8.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[Orion]

Nice point Mutz. And couldn't be more precisely 'to the point'. For that is EXACTLY what we are dealing with in this thread. Faith and the inability of many to have ANY in anything other than 'self'.
MEC

That's about as far from "the point" of this thread as I can think of. :-?

What IS the purpose of this level of "faith" anyway? What IF . . . the entire Bible is, in fact, wrong. How would "having faith" in it [the book] alone be any better than "having faith in the Koran", or any other religious text?

But that is beside the point. This thread was never about anything other than wondering why the main figure of the entire religion is given very little "word time" and we're supposed to rely on 40 writers to have been completely inspired to have heard from God, when Jesus could have given us the information straight from the heart of God in the years he was here. We wouldn't have all the religious fighting between mildly dissimilar Christian denominations, and may have "closed the book" on some of the bigger debates that we Christians fight and fight and fight over because ONE group thinks they're right, and the other group thinks they are wrong "and they'll have scripture to show them why", when the other group will say, "no, WE have it right, see these passages in the book of. . . . . . ".

We have Catholic fighting against protestants, who fight against Armenist, fighting Calvinists, who can't stand Universalists, who see wrong in fundamentalists, and on and on and on.... And why is that? Because what we have written in the Bible apparently isn't clear enough (from these 40 writers) that WAY too many factions arise when there SHOULD BE NONE!!!

If the Bible is perfect, there would be only ONE gospel, ONE message, NO fighting as to what sections mean, or what is "the way we should be". How much trouble would have been resolved by several books written of quotes and deeds that came from Jesus while he was here?

Some of you may say [and have said], that I am trying to "tell God how to do it" just because of what I said. But I don't praise the Bible. It is words written down by men. Some of which were inspirations from God, some direct quotes, . . . but some [regardless of how heretical you may find this] the words of men. Some great, some misleading. More direct quotes and acts of Jesus could have saved a lot of trouble. . . .and even millions of lives.

 

[Free]

Some of which were inspirations from God, some direct quotes, . . . but some [regardless of how heretical you may find this] the words of men. Some great, some misleading.

I'm curious: how do you know which words are inspired and which ones are not? How do you know which are direct quotes and which are not? How do you know which are the words of men and which are not?

We have Catholic fighting against protestants, who fight against Armenist, fighting Calvinists, who can't stand Universalists, who see wrong in fundamentalists, and on and on and on.... And why is that? Because what we have written in the Bible apparently isn't clear enough (from these 40 writers) that WAY too many factions arise when there SHOULD BE NONE!!!

If the Bible is perfect, there would be only ONE gospel, ONE message, NO fighting as to what sections mean, or what is "the way we should be".

The questions I asked above should make this clear.

More direct quotes and acts of Jesus could have saved a lot of trouble. . . .and even millions of lives.

It would likely have made no difference.

 

[Orion]

I'm curious: how do you know which words are inspired and which ones are not? How do you know which are direct quotes and which are not? How do you know which are the words of men and which are not?

I see a good majority of the Psalms as being from men. That's not to say it's a "bad thing". To me, it means a WHOLE lot more if you read them as they actually are, notes from [say] David as he is fleeing from Saul or being pursued by his enemies, . . . when he lifts up his faith to God, that's real. To say that God gave him those words to say, that greatly takes away from what was written, because it only makes sense when they ARE from a man.

The questions I asked above should make this clear.

Can you point me to where you asked this?

More direct quotes and acts of Jesus could have saved a lot of trouble. . . .and even millions of lives.

It would likely have made no difference.

Oh, I disagree. If Jesus stated exactly what people [now] squabble over, there would be much less of it, I'm sure.