Predestination and Foreknowledge are determinate !

[savedbygrace57]

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Notice how in this place, the scripture uses the words determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.

This is the only place in scripture where the word determinate is used and its the greek word:

horizō:


to define

a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

b) to determine, appoint

1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

2) to ordain, determine, appoint


Websters says :

Having defined limits; not uncertain or arbitrary; fixed; established; definite.[Websters]

5. Conclusive; decisive; positive.[Websters]
6. Determined or resolved upon.[Websters]
7. Of determined purpose; resolute.[Websters]

Now here in the text in acts 2 it is used in connection with and preceding the word Foreknowledge.

Many today admit that Gods foreknowledge covers everything, but denies that He has definitely fixed the affairs of all things or that all things are not predestinated.

That thinking is in opposition however to scriptures such as the one being considered and these:

acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

With these in view, it appears certain that the biblical teaching is that His fixed determination [purpose or counsel] precedes His Foreknowledge, and or so closely integrated that His determinate counsel is used first.

This also should now dispel the false notion that Gods Foreknowledge is what He observes His creatures do, or doing or will do.

Its more associated with what He has determined to do.
​

 

[savedbygrace57]

Is it possible for God to know something without Him having determined it ? If it is some other entity or power which shall bring about some of the things that God has foreknown but not determined, is not God more or less dependent on that other power or entity, or those other powers to bring about the things He foreknew ?

 

[Dennyh]

Is it possible for God to know something without Him having determined it ? If it is some other entity or power which shall bring about some of the things that God has foreknown but not determined, is not God more or less dependent on that other power or entity, or those other powers to bring about the things He foreknew ?

Anyone who has children knows that if you hand a quarter to a toddler they will probably put it in their mouth (because that is what toddlers do). Does me knowing that mean that I made my toddler put a quarter in his mouth? No. Just because I can pretty much guess the outcome of something doesn't meant I made that outcome happen. I understand that God doesn't "pretty much know" something, He knows all things. That doesn't change the premise. Foreknowledge is not the same as predetermined.

 

[smaller]

Is it possible for God to know something without Him having determined it ? If it is some other entity or power which shall bring about some of the things that God has foreknown but not determined, is not God more or less dependent on that other power or entity, or those other powers to bring about the things He foreknew ?

There are many examples of the foreknowledge of God. The entire text is filled with same. One logical conclusion one can make in these matters is that God Is intimately involved with His creation.

IF this is so, He can certainly 'sway' things, ANYthing, in whatever direction He so chooses, for whatever results He Desires.

As a believer I have a very hard time trying to extract God from the equations in any matter, good or bad.

How did Jesus KNOW that before the cock crowed twice Peter would deny him 3 times? Peter, even KNOWING this in advance and denying it would happen, had it happen with him anyway. Is that what is called freewill? lol That is a great example of determinate foreknowledge. Peter could not have stopped that from happening for ALL his freewill worth because Jesus SAID it was going to happen, and THAT is what came to pass. I also believe the 'explanations' of this surpass observing ONLY Peter's supposed freewill. Some say God knows the freewill decisions before they are made, so they remain freewill decisions.

I doubt VERY MUCH that the entire events of Jesus Life in the flesh revolved around a myriad of freewill agents who just happened to have decided (all on their own of course) to participate in TOTALLY RANDOM FASHIONS to bring about the crucifixtion. I'm sorry, but the events just DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. Every JOT and TITTLE was meticulously executed in the EXACT FASHIONS that GOD WANTED DONE. It was NOT the result of the coagulation of a series of freewill decisions by freewill agents.

IT WAS BY DIVINE DECREE.

None of us can outguess God. It's just not possible.

It is impossible to REMOVE GOD from any of these equations. IF He is in the mix, then HE controls what transpires on ALL SIDES of these ledgers.

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[bleitzel]

Anyone who has children knows that if you hand a quarter to a toddler they will probably put it in their mouth (because that is what toddlers do). Does me knowing that mean that I made my toddler put a quarter in his mouth? No. Just because I can pretty much guess the outcome of something doesn't meant I made that outcome happen. I understand that God doesn't "pretty much know" something, He knows all things. That doesn't change the premise. Foreknowledge is not the same as predetermined.

Denny, having 4 kids myself ages 15 - 4 I can appreciate your post! But you didn't logically support your conclusion that foreknowledge is not the same as predetermined. In your example of the parent and the toddler, the parent does not truly have foreknowledge, not in the absolute certainty sense, it's more of a hunch, an educated guess based in years of experience of wisdom. You correctly stated that God's foreknowledge is much more than a guess. But if the almighty creator God foreknows everything that His newest creation will do in His life and the creature is incapable of doing anything other than what God foreknows, yet God creates him anyways, how does forewknowledge then differ from predetermination?

 

[savedbygrace57]

denn:

Does me knowing that mean that I made my toddler put a quarter in his mouth?

Yes, If you absolutely knew it would happen.

Now God, knowing absolutely that if He made man that man would bring sin into the world and all of its devastating consequences, would that not conclude that it was God's will for those things to occur.

If you say no, then you indict Gods Knowledge as if He did not know, or as if He knew, but thought that by chance, man would not do it !

Either of those would make God a fool.

The only God Honoring conclusion is Yes, it was Gods will for man to bring sin into the world and its deadly consequences.

 

[savedbygrace57]

If it is some other entity or power which shall bring about some of the things that God has foreknown but not determined, is not God more or less dependent on that other power or entity, or those other powers to bring about the things He foreknew ?

Those who do not know the True God would affirm that its ok for God to be dependent on another entity or power to determine something that He merely foreknew. For a God to be dependent on another is a dumb idol and does not describe the God I love and Worship !

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The slaying of Christ upon the cross, was the worst crime men can ever commit under the sun, and we are instructed in the text that He was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. This determinate counsel was antecedent to and integrated to His Foreknowledge of the handing over of His Most Blessed Son to be killed. acts 3:

14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15And killed the Prince of life

In Light of this, the most cruel, inhumane, immoral deviltry ever done was by the determinate counsel and Foreknowledge of God !

 

[Dennyh]

Denny, having 4 kids myself ages 15 - 4 I can appreciate your post! But you didn't logically support your conclusion that foreknowledge is not the same as predetermined. In your example of the parent and the toddler, the parent does not truly have foreknowledge, not in the absolute certainty sense, it's more of a hunch, an educated guess based in years of experience of wisdom. You correctly stated that God's foreknowledge is much more than a guess. But if the almighty creator God foreknows everything that His newest creation will do in His life and the creature is incapable of doing anything other than what God foreknows, yet God creates him anyways, how does forewknowledge then differ from predetermination?

Simple, knowing and doing are two diferent things.

denn:



Yes, If you absolutely knew it would happen.

Now God, knowing absolutely that if He made man that man would bring sin into the world and all of its devastating consequences, would that not conclude that it was God's will for those things to occur.

If you say no, then you indict Gods Knowledge as if He did not know, or as if He knew, but thought that by chance, man would not do it !

Either of those would make God a fool.

The only God Honoring conclusion is Yes, it was Gods will for man to bring sin into the world and its deadly consequences.

No, I don't believe it was God's will for man to bring sin into the world. I think God created man and loved him enough to give him a choice. Sadly Adam chose disobedience to God, bringing sin into the world. God knew it would happen but loved man enough to let him make his own decision, knowng He[God] could make a way for forgiveness.

If it is some other entity or power which shall bring about some of the things that God has foreknown but not determined, is not God more or less dependent on that other power or entity, or those other powers to bring about the things He foreknew ? !

I think this is where the logic is flawed. The premise that if God foreknew but did not determine something means that God is dependent on some other entity is wrong. God knows whats going to happen and allows some things to happen but He is not dependent on anything except His Word.

 

[watchman F]

Is it possible for God to know something without Him having determined it ?

Yes

If it is some other entity or power which shall bring about some of the things that God has foreknown but not determined, is not God more or less dependent on that other power or entity, or those other powers to bring about the things He foreknew ?

No

 

[savedbygrace57]

denn:

No, I don't believe it was God's will for man to bring sin into the world.

It does not matter if you believe it or not. Its True. At least with the God I serve and Worship !

 

[savedbygrace57]

YesNo

Thats not the God I serve !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Simple, knowing and doing are two diferent things.


No, I don't believe it was God's will for man to bring sin into the world. I think God created man and loved him enough to give him a choice. Sadly Adam chose disobedience to God, bringing sin into the world. God knew it would happen but loved man enough to let him make his own decision, knowng He[God] could make a way for forgiveness.



I think this is where the logic is flawed. The premise that if God foreknew but did not determine something means that God is dependent on some other entity is wrong. God knows whats going to happen and allows some things to happen but He is not dependent on anything except His Word.

Adams existence was by Gods determination was it not ?

 

[Dennyh]

Adams existence was by Gods determination was it not ?

Yes, but God did not MAKE Adam sin.

 

[smaller]

It does not matter if you believe it or not. Its True. At least with the God I serve and Worship !

IS it true that determinists have a construct of determinism made by totally depraved sinners or at a very minimum, believers who ONLY SEE IN PART?

IF at a minimum the LATER is true (it IS) THEN how do you know your own construct is SPOT ON? That has always appeared to be a logical fallacy to me.

No construct by PART SIGHT can possibly be totally accurate unless 'they' are The DeterminER, which of course they are not. Calvin was certainly NOT GOD and therefore NOT the DETERMINER.

Seems to me God can always surprise partial sighted folk by His Own Determinations.

You claim you serve this Divine Determinant God and to do that you or your scripture sets or teachers of same have supposedly captured what that is, even though seeing admittedly ONLY IN PART.

What makes 'any' PARTIAL SIGHTED doctrinal construct vaunted above another PARTIAL SIGHTED doctrinal construct?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

It may seem at best that even determinists see a 'DARKLY' version of Determinism and 'an in PART view only.'

One of the very BEST modern day determinists (imho) Karl Barth, admitted these FLAWS in mens views of DIVINE DETERMINISM by the rightful statement (synopsed by me)- that God CAN and MAY dramatically EXCEED the best of mens sights...as it pertains to the abilities of GODS Grace.

Many freewill camps such as the RCC take a nearly IDENTICAL position.

One of Barth's most profound statements (again imho) was this:

"God's Word is free and not something controlled or possessed by the church."

That understanding comes in large part by Paul as a recognition of his own condition in relation to Gods Word:

2 Timothy 2:9
Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

I find it very problematic that J. CALVIN or ANY MAN, bound the WORD OF GOD...by their OWN determinations.

Gods Word IS and REMAINS THE WORD LIVING and ACTIVE...and not made subject to CAPTURE in totality by mere partial sighters. What has meaning in YOUR partial sight may be nearly totally MEANINGLESS to another partial sighter.

GOD meets EVERY BELIEVER on HIS OWN TERMS. IF some are led one way and some another, SO BE IT!

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active.

Any believer engaged in Christian Apologetics should respect this fact and should bow their understandings before THIS FACT.

God CAN and DOES work entirely of HIS OWN ACCORD and will NOT BOW before ANY MAN handler.

IF God Decides that we all SEE PERFECTLY then THAT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN, BUT OBVIOUSLY THAT IS NOT PRESENTLY IN THE CARDS.

God, even within the communities of believers, DOES give MORE LIGHT to some and DOES take away the LIGHT of others. This too is WORD.

Mark 4:
24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

I take heed what I hear from Calvin. He is a mere MORTAL. I desire more from God. IF we are 'faithful' HE IS EVEN MORE faithful to us and WILL GIVE MORE LIGHT.

Calvin can keep his theological clones. Reformed theologians HAVE EXCEEDED CALVIN's LIGHT by GREAT MEASURES.

The History and working of God is PROGRESSIVELY MORE LIGHT to HIS OWN, as much as we CAN STAND thereunder until PERFECTION COMES.

Then our MUTUAL and PARTIAL SIGHTS will EVAPORATE and DISAPPER.

IF any believer is found BEATING another believer with their partial GOD STICK...there may be HELL to pay for those who practice their faith in that way.

There has always been only ONE PATH AVAILABLE out of this MESS.

LOVE ONE ANOTHER. IN this way GOD LIVES IN US. How much CAN YOU STAND thereunder is the only question.

s

 

[Jus10]

denn:



It does not matter if you believe it or not. Its True. At least with the God I serve and Worship !

Thats not the God I serve !

Oh crud. You went there.

This is a scripture I thought of while reading this discussion. There's too much to quote and reply to, so I'm jsut sharing my thoughts on the matter.
O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. You hem me in—behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

It's impossible for us to understand God's mind. God say He predistines, chooses, has an elect, and we're told by people when the gospel is first given to us that we have a choice. Choice in salvation is unfortuately a man-made concept. No where in the Bible are the words "free will" and choice before salvation.

At the sametime you're arguing over thoughts that seem intellectual in our own eyes, but compared to God's infinite mind there's absolutly no way for us to understand this.

Do you know how many times God says throughout Deutoronomy "I am LORD, I will not share My glory with another" and "I am Lord, you shall bow to no other Gods but me"...? I don't. It's too many to count. So on the subject of another entity, if you believe something else other than God exists then you worship a God who lies. If God lies and there's something else other than Himself out there, then you cannot trust Him when He says "you are forgiven" or "you will be with me" or "this is my Son, with Who I am well pleased." I would axe that thought very quickly, because it will lead you down the road of doubt and disbelief.

 

[watchman F]

Thats not the God I serve !

To be honest, I never thought you did.

 

[Dennyh]

It's impossible for us to understand God's mind. God say He predistines, chooses, has an elect, and we're told by people when the gospel is first given to us that we have a choice. Choice in salvation is unfortuately a man-made concept. I Tim 2: 3-6 says that God wants ALL men to be saved and Jesus dies for ALL men, but if you read in chapter 1 Pauls talks about those who have "shipwrecked their faith". Implying people having a choice. No where in the Bible are the words "free will" and choice before salvation. Neither is the word "trinity" but the concept is obviously there.




Response in blue.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, but God did not MAKE Adam sin.

Adams sinning was dependent on God giving him being was it not ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

It's impossible for us to understand God's mind. God say He predistines, chooses, has an elect, and we're told by people when the gospel is first given to us that we have a choice. Choice in salvation is unfortuately a man-made concept. I Tim 2: 3-6 says that God wants ALL men to be saved and Jesus dies for ALL men, but if you read in chapter 1 Pauls talks about those who have "shipwrecked their faith". Implying people having a choice. No where in the Bible are the words "free will" and choice before salvation. Neither is the word "trinity" but the concept is obviously there.




Response in blue.

God does not want all men to be saved without exception, if He did then all would be saved without exception.

 

[Dennyh]

God does not want all men to be saved without exception, if He did then all would be saved without exception.

But Scripture clearly stated God wants ALL men to be saved.