Bible Study Predestination unto conformity to image of christ.

[beloved57]

rom 8:28,29


28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination though not election, is the fruit of election, and as election , is before time began. Both begin in the Eternal Mind of The Eternal God. deut 33:

27The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them

Whatever originates in The divine mind, comes into existence in timebecause its foreknown and determinded to come to pass.acts 15:

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world

Now within the purpose of divine election rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Their are those who are predestinated to the image of the Lord Jesus christ. This entails first of all, holiness - and blamelessness. The elect are declared holy and blameless by virtue of the imputed righteousness of christ. For without holiness no one shall see the Lord. heb 12:

14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:[imputed righteouness of christ]

This holiness or righteousness is from the Lord Jesus christ by imputation and is to the church 2 cor 5:

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

As in the above passage, this righteousness is made known individually to individual elect in time, by faith rom 4:

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

and rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So it can be said, via the gospel, holiness is revealed from faith to faith.

So, one of the first blessings in time , is that the elect become aware of, that conforms them to the image of christ, is that of having his righteousness/ holiness imputed to them personally. This is resultive of predestination which is effected by eternal election, which is grounded in Gods eternal Love, to christ and His church..jn 17:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 

[Bick]

Yes, beloved57, it is somethhing that goes beyond my comprehension, that we were foreknown, then predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ Jesus; and being predestined we were called (by hearing and obeying the gospel). And being called we were justified, and some day we will be glorified.

We, members of Christ's body have a special future, not on the earth, but in the heavenlies.

This revelation to Paul was not known by him in his early ministry and epistles, but was given to him in prison when he penned Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and Philemon.

May I quote? Ephesians 1:3-6: "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will---to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." NIV.

This is written in the past tense, which is the way the Hebrew mind would express the future.

Indeed, our standing in God's eyes of the future, is that, we have the righteousness of Christ, being justified and reconciled. He sees us made alive with Christ, raised us up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly realms.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions---it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Eph. 2:4-7, NIV.

God's purpose for the Church/body of Christ, is that we should display and witness the manifold wisdom of God, to the spirt beings in the heavenly realms (the universe). Of course, this is after we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and then go on to the heavens, as we read in 1 Cor. 15:51ff and 1 Thes. 4:15-18.

"His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God whould be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal (aionian--Greek) purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord." Eph. 3:10-11, NIV. Parentheses mine.

Bick

 

[beloved57]

This revelation to Paul was not known by him in his early ministry and epistles,

why you say that ?

 

[Drew]

Now within the purpose of divine election rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

This quoted material from Romans 9 has nothing to do with the matter of individual persons being elected to ultimate salvation or loss. Paul tells us that the election is all about. It is an election to a particular role in this very world, not the next:

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Paul quotes Genesis 25:23 here;

The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger

Paul is simply not addressing the topic of eternal destinies here. He is referring to an election in relation to relationships in the present world.

 

[beloved57]

This quoted material from Romans 9 has nothing to do with the matter of individual persons being elected to ultimate salvation or loss.

Then you dont believe scriptures..jacob and easu were individuals..

 

[Drew]

This quoted material from Romans 9 has nothing to do with the matter of individual persons being elected to ultimate salvation or loss.

Then you dont believe scriptures..jacob and easu were individuals..

Please do not patronize me. Your argument appears to be of this form:

1. It is stated that "election" is performed in respect to Jacob and Esau;
2. Jacob and Esau are individuals;
3. Therefore the what they are "elected to" is their eternal state - one to heaven, the other to hell.

This is obviously incorrect logic. Imagine if I said this:

1. "Election" is performed in respect to George Bush and John Kerry;
2. Kerry and Bush are individuals;
3. Therefore the what they are "elected to" is their eternal state - one to heaven, the other to hell.

This is, of course, not true. What Bush and Kerry were being elected to is the Presidency of the United States, not eternal life.

And the same principle applies in the Romans 9 passage - Paul tells us what Jacob and Esau are elected to: one serving the other.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Why do people think they know better than Paul - Paul clearly states that the election is to a purpose in this very life.

I suspect that people are caught in the trap of thinking that the work election (in the Scriptures) can only refer to the matter of "where you go when you die". This is incorrect. Paul tells us what Jacob and Esau are elected to and it has nothing whatsoever to do with their respective eternal destinies.

 

[beloved57]

Please do not patronize me. Your argument appears to be of this form:

You are flat out denying scripture..romans 9 is speaking about individual election..

rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Jacob and easu were individuals, one was elected to salvation being Loved of God, and the other was not elected to salvation, being hated by God..

I did a study on romans 9

romans 9 pt 1

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Hi, I am back, with a romans 9 study..I like the thread on reprobation too. I believe that as election unconditionally is a mandatory gospel truth, so is its twin brother, reprobation. Its from the background of eternal reprobation that unconditional election of grace shines brightest..

Romans 9 What does it teach ? In parts..


The enemy of the gospel of Gods Free Sovereign Grace is under attack more than ever in this day and time we live in. The Fact that the bible teaches God is Free and Sovereign in the administration of His mercy and salvation, Is eclipsed with the man exalting concept that man has the freewill, hence man is sovereign in his own salvation being he at anytime may utilize his freewill and get saved.

But May God be true and all men liars..

One of the chapters in the bible that testifies to Gods absolute Sovereigny to save whom ever he will, and with hold Salvation from whomever He will is taught in romans 9..

The devil has been busy though in sending his servants to corrupt and change the truth into a lie..

One of the ways this is being strategically done is by men saying that romans 9 is not talking about individual salvation but corporate election only..This however is not true, and by the grace of God, I will set out to prove that yes indeed romans 9 is talking about individual salvation..

First of all the whole context of the book of romans is grounded and centered in salvation, in fact, it is the gospel of Jesus christ set forth in its theological framework. It has themes such as mans depravity and inability , unconditional election, particular atonement, effectual call, preservation of the saints , deity of christ, and the mystery of israel and the church. All of which are vital gospel truthes for the elect of God, and the salvation of their souls..

Now, the book as I said is premised on salvation as we see from perhaps the verses that so aptly lay out the theme of the book rom 1:5-17


15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is a gospel that is from God to his elect or called ones. rom 1:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

rom 1:


1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Now moving right along to the 9th chapter we find the following..

vs 1-5

1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The concern here is that there apparently seemed to be something gone wrong here in that the pauls kinsmen in the flesh the physical Jew , were not for the most part expriencing salvation , and appeared to be foresaken of God , abandoned.. This caused paul apparently some sorrow of heart and heaviness.

And I see nothing wrong with wishful thinking , as it pertains to the salvation of friends and family, or those to whom God has caused us to fell close to..Paul had a natural affinity for his kinsmen in the flesh..

I dont know if this was sinful on pauls behalf or not, but in light of this it would be later that he suffered mightly from these his kinsmen..

2 cor 11:

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

Note; God will ween his children from all inordinate affection..

The reason for this is because it was suggested that paul went a little too far in saying he could wish to be accursed from christ for his brethern sake according to the flesh..and if that is what he really meant, he was definitly wrong for that thought and God chastised him good..with those very jews he had such passion for..

But getting back to the subject, the perplexity was salvation being with held from the jews or Israel according to the flesh.

It was no secret that God had singled out this nation for national prominence from what we read in vs4-5

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
It had appeared that in light of all israels past glory as Gods favoured people and the promises made to israel , that these promises have now fallen to the ground, and His covenant people set aside..

But paul sets out to resolve this issue by first stating, in vs 6:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

He first says, all israel [ the true spiritual israel of God] is not of national israel

Paul was saying that all the salvaic[ covenant ] promises of God were not directed to Israel as a nation but to a spiritual israel within the nation. Those who are the foreknown according to Gods eternal purpose in christ..rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

So paul first dispelling of the problem is that all israel is not from your country israel..

Next he goes on to explain further his point about not the national people where the original focus, but God had an eye to a people within a people..He proves this further in vs:7-9


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

As we know abe had two sons , one was name ishmael and the other issach..God made a choice to whom the heir of the covenant promises would be, and it was Isaach not ishmael..In fact at one point the inspired writer totally disregarded ishmael and was moved to write:

gen 22:

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Question ? Was not ishmael abes son ?

But the point is this, that those who belong to the covenant are like isaach was children of promise..What does this mean ? It means , that those who are Gods true israel , their births are brought about by the bare promise of Gods word alone..You see issach was a promised child by God when human effort was not a option for this to be accomplished..note:

gen 18:

9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

So in actuality it was not possible physically for sarah to have a child on her own..

But this child was to brought about my the onipotence and power of God notice vs 14 a

Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Issachs birth was by the promise of God, not human will..

So like wise is the true jew, he or she are children of promise..It was promised to christ prophetically that a seed shall serve him..

ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

cp isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

so the true israel are as Isaach recieve their spirtual birth by Gods promise, and james alludes to this in james 1:


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth[ or promise], that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God The Holy Spirit gives newbirth to the heirs of promise at his Sovereign appointed pleasure..jn 3:

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

i emphasize appointed time because this was the terminology God used to abe and sarah : gen 18:

14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

so paul goes on to tell the galatians that true believers are appointed just as isaach was appointed..

gal 4:

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

end of part 1

 

[stovebolts]

This quoted material from Romans 9 has nothing to do with the matter of individual persons being elected to ultimate salvation or loss.

Then you dont believe scriptures..jacob and easu were individuals..

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[Drew]

Please do not patronize me. Your argument appears to be of this form:

You are flat out denying scripture..romans 9 is speaking about individual election..

rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I am not denying scripture.

The stuff about Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 has nothing whatsoever to do with the matter of people being pre-destined to heaven or to hell. Now it is perhaps debatable as to whether Paul here is talking about election of Jacob and Esau as individuals or whether he is making a statement about nations. Notice the text from Genesis that Paul quotes here.

The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

So when Paul states that one is elected to serve the other, he may be speaking at two levels - Jacob and Esau as individuals, and the nations they respectively represent as corporate entities.

But, and this is the key point, the election has nothing to do with what will happen to Jacob and Esau after they die. Paul tells us directly and clearly what Jacob and Esau are being "elected to". And it has nothing to do with the next world. It has to do with this world. And the election is about one serving the other. Why people use this text as support for pre-destination to heaven and hell mystifies me. The text clearly has nothing whatsoever to say on that issue:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

 

[Drew]

I believe that Romans 9 has nothing to do with the election of individual persons to salvation or to loss. I believe that the subject is basically Israel and Paul explains how God has been covenantally faithful in the manner in which Isreal has been treated. I realize that Romans 9, and the potter metaphor is the classic text used to support the predestination view. I think it is clear that the potter methaphor is being used by Paul to describe God's treatment of national Israel - -personal election is not even being addressed in the potter metaphor.

It is clear from Old Testament precedent that the potter metaphor is used repeatedly in relation to Israel.

Romans 9 begins with questions about Israel and ends with questions about Israel. If you believe the potter metaphor in the middle of Romans is about something other than God's treatment of Israel, then you have to believe the following:

1. Paul uses this metaphor in a manner entirely inconsistent with its use in the Old Testament - material that he knows inside and out.

2. Paul does so at a spot where it could not be more misleading - in the middle of a discourse that is otherwise so obviously about Israel and God's treatment of her.

The context of Romans 9 could not be more appropriate for Paul to pull out the potter metaphor in specific relation to Israel. He has laid the "what about Israel" question on the table and raises questions about God's treatment of her. Here, Paul indicates that he has Israel on his mind:

For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel

And here, Paul is clearly answering the implicit question: “If the Jews have rejected their Messiah, then has God’s covenant promises to Israel failed?†He answers “noâ€Â, by taking the specific angle that the promises never were intended for “genetic Israelâ€Â:

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children

This very naturally gives rise to question: “Well then, has God been unfair to genetic Israel, given that she is now, except for the remnant, now in a position of being excluded from membership in God’s true covenant people – those who proclaim Christ?â€Â

What then shall we say? Is God unjust?

This could not be a better set-up to invoke the potter metaphor to answer the "what am I (Paul) saying about Israel?" question - calling on Old Testament material to say "yes, God has the right to mold Israel" for His own purposes.

And yet, some think the potter metaphor has no Israel-specificity whatsoever - that Paul suddenly inserts a statement about pre-destination of individuals in the middle of a treatment of Israel.

 

[beloved57]

I believe that Romans 9 has nothing to do with the election of individual persons to salvation or to loss.

Then you dont believe the Truth..here is part 2 of my study..

Now as we continue the Romans 9 study, we see that Paul in explaining what seems to be a perplexity as to why the Jews are being excluded , most of them, as individuals of that nation. He explains that not all Jews from that nation are truly Jews [ spiritually] rom 2:



28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



This is the beginning of unfolding a mystery that the ethnic jew did not know or understand..



So, Gods promises to the jews have not fell to the ground as rom 3:



1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?



The unbelief of the non elect national jews, does not nullify the Faithfulness of God to the true spiritual jew, of the election of grace. All the abrahamic promises are sure to all the seed..



No sir, God is being faithful to Israel but just not the Israel you think..



He shows a distinction in Isaac vs 7-9



Now he goes on to show another distinction and sovereign display, this time with Isaacs offspring, because he had just said that the covenant promises were in Isaac, but there is still more..



Isaacs offspring vs 10-13



10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Here Paul continues his thought and explanation of seemingly the Jews being left out overlooked in salvation.



Even though he showed a sovereign choice made by God with abes children, he shows one now with Isaacs's children, who unlike Ishmael, not having the same mother, some may think, well yeah, God choose Isaac because Ishmaels mom was a heathen handmaid. but Paul dispels this thinking by showing Gods Sovereign choice of Individuals by the same parents, both mother and father..



This choice rested soley on God's "He whicheth calleth", and not on foreseen good or evil of the individuals..or works of the individuals..



This call proceeds from Gods eternal purpose alone..



2 tim 1:



9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Notice here in the above verse the phrase not according to our works and its relation to calling and in rom 9:11 and the phrase not of works and calling.



It should be plain to see, that calling is regards to salvation according to Gods eternal purpose. and election



God made a choice of Jacob over Esau to be the recipient of the covenantal love he displays in salvation..



No one can have a claim on Gods love in Christ Jesus, its only at Gods discretion. Esau was excluded from the covenant love of God, so scripture says he was hated.. If God loves you he saves you..



rev 1:



5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,



Gods loving one and washing away their sins are one and the same. They are married and cannot be separated, what God has Joined together let no man put asunder, lest thou be found a liar..



He does this because he paid the price for our sins, so God is The father is pleased and pacified, now nothing is left but for the loved ones, the washed ones, the forgiven ones, is to hear the good news of it, thats the gospel..



People dont be fooled by the false teachers saying this passage is speaking of nations and not individuals, that cannot be further from the truth, Jacob and Esau first and foremost were individuals ,and this what was happening affected them individually..



now we see why God is oft times called the God Jacob



ps 145:



5Happy is he[ singular] that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:



ps 75:



9But I will declare for ever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob.



david recognized a sovereign God of a particular people..



He was humble too there was a time he made this request :



ps 106:



4Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;

5That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may

glory with thine inheritance.



1pet 2:



9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;



David acknowledges that God is a God of a chosen people and wishes and desires the salvation for that people..



Now david had all the right to probably consider himself chosen, but probably because of sin he humbles himself and seeks salvation from the God of a chosen people..He truly represents an expression of what paul terms in titus 1:



1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;



Amen, David had the gift of the Faith of Gods elect..



So God has not forgotten His salvation promises to Israel, but they are being fulfilled to the true Israel of God..



God is Sovereign in whose the recipients of this salvation,



Isaac and not Ishmael , and jacob and not easu..



When a person or persons are excluded outside of the covenant love of God, is being hated by God, so much so , you are not even considered a people as we see in, #1 The holy spirits exclusion of acknowledging Ishmael as a son of abe gen 22:



12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.



# 2 Esau finding no repentance, God gives repentance to those He loves..



heb 11:



17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears



God is never termed, the God of Esau, as His chosen brother has the great honor of God being called:



ps 20:



1The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;



#3 people who are outside of covenant promises are



not a people at all to God..



eph 2:



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:



This still applies today if you are not a elect , outside of the new covenant blessings, for only the spiritual israel benefit from..heb 8:



6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



That means , all who are not of this chosen spiritual israel are excluded as it was in ot times when the heathen gentile nations were excluded..



Now, look at vs rom 9 vs 14



14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.



Thats right, paul expected this reaction from them whom he testified the truth to..



we know Paul was not Armenian , and we know what he taught went against Armenian freewill philosophy by the very objection he is prepared to meet with..



If this is the case says the humanist, is not their unrighteousness with God ?



Note: depraved human nature has not changed since the days of Paul in negative reaction to the truth of God..



also, we must reckon that Paul gave the truth of unconditional election to all he had opportunity to, regardless if they were converted or not. He must have, because it seems he was ready for the response of natural thinking men. Which claim God is unrighteous and shows respect of persons, when this truth is testified to. So I disagree with those who say unconditional election should not be spoken of to the unconverted. Apparently Paul spoke often of it to all. which agrees with acts 28:



30And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.



Unconditional election is a gospel of the kingdom truth , and paul taught all that came in unto him, no doubt many came out of curiosity and just wanted to hear what this man was talking about, but paul was faithful and held back nothing for the fear of man..



acts 20:



20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnessed in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.



so in conclusion this section gives us more proof that paul is speaking about individual salvation because of the response he anticiaptes as God being unfair if unconditional election is true without regard to the individuals persons of good or evil as just illustrated in vs 10-14



end of pt 2

 

[Drew]

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Paul tells us what the purpose of the election he is talking about here is. It is that Esau (the elder) will serve the younger. And not only does Paul tell us this directly, he tell us this by quoting from Genesis 25:23:


The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

Why do you impose your own systems on this statement about Esau and Jacob, and thus over-ride what Paul declares both explicitly and implicitly? You clearly think that Paul was mistaken and needs to be corrected.

 

[beloved57]

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Paul tells us what the purpose of the election he is talking about here is. It is that Esau (the elder) will serve the younger. And not only does Paul tell us this directly, he tell us this by quoting from Genesis 25:23:


The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

Why do you impose your own systems on this statement about Esau and Jacob, and thus over-ride what Paul declares both explicitly and implicitly? You clearly think that Paul was mistaken and needs to be corrected.

i see you are still rejecting the truth of romans 9 i am witnessing to you..here is part three of my comprehensive study, maybe God will reveal to you the error of your way, so you can stop rejecting His blessed truth..

begin part 3 rom 9



So we see from our study so far of romans 9, that paul is dispeling the Ideal that the national jews have been foresaken and Gods promises to them nullified. Paul teaches that:



#1 That the salvaic promises were not for national israel in the first place, but spiritual Israel..9:6



#2, then he Illustrates that not all of Abrahams descendents were heirs of promise by the story of Isaac vs 7-9



#3, he continues his teaching, that not all of Isaacs children are included in the covenant promises with Jacob and Esau vs10-13



#4, vs 14 Paul anticipates the humanistic response, knowing that what he teaches gives the sense that God chooses who He wants to have salvation, regardless of the actions and deeds of men. hence making it appear that God is unfair, so you know paul is teaching a Calvinistic view point about unconditional election and not the popular freewill Armenian viewpoint which is anti scriptural..



Now lets look at how Paul meets with this humanistic thought of God being unrighteous..vs 15-18



15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



He answers by referring back to a declaration God made years ago to moses,when moses asked or inquired about seeing Gods Glory..ex 33:



17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.



19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.



Gods respond was the declaration of His Great I AM personage in Stating That He is absolutely sovereign in and of Himself, and He will Dispense of His graciousness [grace] and mercy on whomever He will..



This is Gods Glory , His absolute prerogative to do as He pleases. His GodHood is His Glory.. No one has a right to expect or have any claims on Gods grace or mercy..



Gods Glory is His Indisputable sovereignty over all His creation. doing whatever he pleases..



dan 4:



35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?



ps 115:



3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



God given faith bows to this revelation of Almightiness..heb 11:



6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.





So then salvation or favor with God is not because of vs 16, who wills it, who earns it, who puts forth an effort to get it, but solely on Gods Absolute prerogative on whether or not He wants to be merciful to an individual..



notice vs 17 He uses pharaoh as an example as to one God in His purpose for this man, not to show mercy to, but in fact one to whom He chooses to show His power and wrath upon.



And let me say this dear reader, you could be one as pharoah was , that is one who God has raised up to be an example of His wrath..



God showed His power in hardening pharaohs heart..



Lets look at some scriptures..



ex 4:



21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.



Gods power hardened pharaohs heart.. Notice the words I will [ Gods Sovereignty, Glory]



It does no good reader to say that pharoah hardened his own heart as in ex 8:



15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite; he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



because he hardened his own heart because God had decreed that his heart be hardened as the Lord said..



Note: We do Just as God decrees for us to do..



Note this great monarchs heart was in Gods Hand and as prov teaches prov 21:



1The king's heart[phoaroah] is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



but lets go back to God hardening pharaohs heart..



ex 7:3



3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.



ex 7:



13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 7:



14And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.





ex 7:



22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.





ex 8:



19Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 8:



32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.



ex 9:



7And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.



ex 912



12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.



ex 9



34And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.





ex 9 35



35And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.



ex 10:1



And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

ex 10:20



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

10:27



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

ex 11 10



And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

ex 14 4



And I will harden Pharaoh's heart that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon his entire host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.





ex 14 8



And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.





ex 14 17



And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.



out of about 20 references of pharaohs heart being hardened, by Gods I will only 2 refer to pharaoh hardening his own heart and at least one of them says as the Lord said he would implying, did have a choice in the matter ? No..



But yet false religionist will deny that God hardened pharaoh heart but firs pharaoh hardened his own heart, that's incredible. And these be folk who say they believe the bible as the word of God..



But notice the last reference ex 14:17



As God being true to His word, He hardened pharoah heart right unto his destruction, along with his armie..



note: hell is prepared for the devil and his angels...



Gods Glory and power was manifested in this monarchs destruction..



We witnessed the Irresistibleness of Gods Sovereign Power over the so called freewill of man, yeah right, pharaoh was like a puppet in Gods hand, as every other human being in this world..



End of pt 3

 

[Drew]

i see you are still rejecting the truth of romans 9 i am witnessing to you..here is part three of my comprehensive study, maybe God will reveal to you the error of your way, so you can stop rejecting His blessed truth..

I hope Paul reads this study too, since you think he is mistaken when he tells us both in his own words, and by reference to Genesis 25, specifically what kind of election he is talking about in the snippet about Jacob and Esau.

Here it is again:

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Who are you, the reader, going to believe: Beloved57, who says that here "election" has to do with eternal life, or Paul, who says that "election" is about "one serving the other"?

 

[beloved57]

I hope Paul reads this study too, since you think he is mistaken when he tells us both in his own words, and by reference to Genesis 25, specifically what kind of election he is talking about in the snippet about Jacob and Esau.

I have delt with that, easu and jacob are individuals in rom 9..but here continue to read the study..pt 4:

And dont use no lame excuse, as you have done in other threads, about showing you my postions by scripture..lol please..but here is pt 4..

Pt 4 of rom 9





Other scriptures about God hardened a mans heart in order to destroy him..



deut 2 30



30But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.





josh 11 20





20For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.



So Paul again demonstrates through scripture and pharaohs experience That God has a right to be merciful to whom he will and not only that to, Hardened whomever he will..



Each person reading this, has either been the object of Gods mercy or His hatred and hardening..



Another anticipated arminan humanistic response to pauls obvious hard teaching of Gods absolute sovereignty over mens destinies,



note: vs 19



19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?



Amen, isn't that the logical conclusion? Well God, if that's the real deal and that's How you work, then why find fault with men, you evidently made it so I cannot get to heaven, this is not fair God, I cant believe you are like this..



Notice pauls respond..vs 20,21:



20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



Notice paul did not back down , and say you are right, that would make God unfair, everybody deserves a chance to be saved..



Nope not at all , but he says, who are you that repliest against God ?



You got your nerve fellow, God has every right to do with you or anyone else as He pleaseth, because he is God and created you..You belong to Him..



For God has total authority and the right to make you or me for any purpose He wants to..for we are as clay in His Hand and for His pleasure ..



Paul was not a compromiser, and didnt care if the truth offened someone, he just told it like it was..



vs 21, God has a right to make a person for honor and dishonor..I believe this refers to the day of judgement, lets look at a proof text..



dan 12:



1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,[honor] and some to shame and everlasting contempt.[dishonor]

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



God has designed each individual to meet with one or the other end..



Honor, life, immortality, to shine as the brightness of the firmament or dishonor and everlasting contempt..



There is no changing this purpose, we are either one or the other..By Gods set purpose and not mans freewill..



vs 22



22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



God is Just, says paul..because the non elect were created by God to be punished for sin, their sin, that God forebeared with, and through Gods forbearance, God fitted them[ byHis Hardening] for their deserved destruction..



The word fitted in the greek is



katartiðzw and it means:



to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
to complete
to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be
But its in the passive voice, meaning the subject [the vessel of wrath] was recieving the action [ Gods hardening] Just as pharaoh, and consequently renders their destruction deserved as pharaoh was deserved..



What a awesome God, one to be feared and worshipped..



A word on Gods forbearance. Those who deny eternal Justification and even the OT saints Justification until after the cross, like to use this verse to justify their claims..



rom 3:



25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



They use this verse as to imply, that God was restraining Himself from dashing them [ the elect] to pieces until christ died on the cross, thats just plain silly.



God's forberance here is referring to the non elect and not the elect..



They say God tolerated the sins of David who gave us this psalm



103:



1Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;



Evidently David was mistaken, for God was forbearing with him..



10He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.



David must be hallucinating according to some calvinist, for david sins were still on record in Gods mind until christ dies..which was yet in the future at this point..





12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.



again David, cannot be speaking truth regarding his transgressions , jesus christ has yet to die, so how can davids transgressions be removed as the east is to the west ? Oh maybe he said they will be moved in the future ? Oh no he uses the past tense, so far hath he removed..



vs 17



17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;



How can the above be true if God had not already reckoned The blood of christ already in effect ? For it is only through the blood of the everlasting covenant that David could have this revealation..



heb 13:



20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,



cp 2 sam 23:



5Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.



David had recieved knowledge that he was a partaker of the blood of christ..and His salvation..though it was a future event that would consummate all what he now enjoyed..



rom 3:25



25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



and heb 9 15



15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



These are very similar, the meaning being, that because of the redemption of the transgressions under the OT, christ death was needful, the OT saints had recieved the truth of their sins being expiated removed because of the future event of the cross..Thats why david coud say :



ps 103:



12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.



and ps 32:



1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputed not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.



So Christ blood and benefits had already been in effect, way before His death burial and resurrection..



The Old Testament saints enjoyed the same conscious forgiveness of sins as post cross saints. based on faith,



acts 13:



39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.



This goes for adam , eve, abel, noah , seth and on and on..



So God fitted the reprobated the vessels of wrath, for destruction by hardening them in their sins..















So now lets look at the next verse as paul makes his point vs 23

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



Notice the word and continuing the thought of vs 22. Just as God made vessels of wrath and fitted them for eternal destruction, he made vessels of mercy, in order that He can make known the riches of His Glory, His free sovereign grace, to those chosen in Christ before the world began..



lets look at eph 2:



1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.





There it is , all that occurred in the garden, the elects fall into sin and shame , making us by nature, no more worthy of salvation as the non elect. We to by nature



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



Our walk was identical to the vessels of wrath, but God, In order to manifest His Glory and His grace in Christ Jesus, choose us the elect, above all others, to display His mercy and grace through Christ Jesus..



vs 7



7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.





Who are the us? Lets look at eph 1:



1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



So He is speaking to those who have been chosen in christ before the foundation of the world..



Let me say this. Don't think that this was the first time the Ephesus believers heard about this being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, oh no. If anything this is a rehashing or rehearsing of truth already taught in the gospel of Gods grace..



Notice pauls words in acts 20:



17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

18And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

19Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.



Paul in this passage is reminding the ephesian elders of His ministry among them, how he taught from house to house vs 20 and that he kept back nothing, he surely taught predestination, election, Gods sovereignty..



That he declared all the counsel of God to them vs



27, that would include reprobation, foreordaining, the truthes of romans 9..



So in beginnig his epistle to them, he was suprising them with something new, but confirming and strengthning the sould of his disciples.. as his manner was..



acts 14:



22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.



The glory of the election of grace was afore prepared for them..matt 25:



32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



Come ye chosen of my Father! remember davids prayer ?



ps 106:



5That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.



end of pt 4

 

[Drew]

I have delt with that, easu and jacob are individuals in rom 9

It is, of course true, that Jacob and Esau are individuals. But it could not possibly be more clear that, in the reference to them in Romans 9, their eternal status is nowhere on Paul's mind. The following text does not even address the issue of eternal destinies of Jacob or Esau. Paul tells us what they are "elected to" - it is that one will serve the other. Why people think that they need to correct Paul on this is indeed a great mystery.

Let's look at the text and think about it:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated

Imagine Paul sitting there with his scribe, having just dictated "in order that God' purpose in election might stand". Where does this statement leave the reader? Obviously, it leaves the reader asking "Well, what is that purpose? What is God "choosing" or "selecting" Jacob and Esau for, exactly?"

So Paul answers this question. He says that the election was not based on "works" (the works of Torah) but rather on the specific calling of God. And then Paul tells us what God has "called" or chosen or "elected" Jacob and Esau for.

They were chosen / selected / elected to........wait for it......"the older will serve the younger"

If Paul is addressing selection or election to eternal life or eternal loss, you have to believe that Paul has suffered a sudden bout of amnesia and makes an entirely unannounced and immediate transition to a different subject altogether - the issue of something else that God selected these two for - one serving the other.

What kind of a writer would do that ? First, state that God has one purpose in selection (election) for two people, and then spell out the details of an entirely different election?

Paul is not whacked in the head. He raises the question of election and then tells us immediately what the election is about. And, of course, it has nothing whatsoever to do with eternal life.

It is simply that Esau has been elected to serve Jacob.

But you need take my word for it. Just read Paul's own words and take them seriously.

 

[beloved57]

It is, of course true, that Jacob and Esau are individuals

Good, it was their election as individuals that paul has in mind, when teaching on the purpose of election..rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

The reference to the older serving the younger is in regards to spiritual salvation..easu never served jacob literally, neither did the edomites serve israel literally..show us if you can..

John Gill gives some helpful comments too..

It was said unto her…
To Rebecca, (Genesis 25:23) ,

the elder shall serve the younger,
or "the greater shall serve the lesser", an Hebrew way of speaking; so Japheth is called (lwdgh) , "the great", or, as we render it, "the elder", (Genesis 10:21) ; and the evil imagination is said F9 to be (lwdg) , "greater", that is, elder than the good, thirteen years; (See Gill on 22:26); The sense is, Esau shall be a servant to Jacob; which is to be understood, not of temporal servitude; for in this sense he never was a servant to him; so far from it, that as soon as Jacob had got the birthright and blessing, he was obliged to flee from the face and fury of Esau; and upon his return after many years, he sent messengers to Esau in a very submissive manner, charging them after this manner, "thus shall ye shall say to my lord Esau, thy servant Jacob saith thus"… (Genesis 32:4) , and when he found that his brother was coming to meet him, which threw him into a panic fear, lest he should "smite [him], and the mother with the children", (Genesis 32:11) , he prepares presents for him; and when he came to him, bowed himself seven times, and his wives and children bowed likewise; and the language in which he addressed his brother Esau, all the while they were together, was that of "my lord": now if this oracle was to be understood of outward temporal servitude, it is strange it should have no appearance, nor any shadow of an accomplishment in the persons of Jacob and Esau, supposing it was to have one in their posterity; and indeed the completion of it, in this sense, is not very evident in their offspring. It is certain, there was a long train of dukes and kings in Esau's family, before there was any king in Israel; the posterity of Esau were in lordly grandeur and splendour, when the children of Israel were grievously oppressed with hard bondage in Egypt. The single instance usually referred to, when the Edomites became tributaries to David, was near a thousand years after the giving out of this oracle; and this show of servitude did not last long, for in Joram's time they revolted, and so continued; and it is evident, that at the time of the Babylonish captivity, the children of Edom were prosperous and triumphant, and said concerning Jerusalem, "Raze it, raze it, even to the foundation thereof", (Psalms 137:7) : this servitude therefore is to be understood in a spiritual sense, of Esau's exclusion from the favour of God, and blessings of grace, signified by his being rejected from inheriting the blessing, which was given to Jacob; and it appeared that he was not a son, but a servant, by his departure, and pitching his dwelling elsewhere; which showed he had no interest in spiritual adoption, no right to the covenant of grace, nor was he an heir of heaven, all which were peculiar to Jacob: Esau was a servant of sin, under the dominion of it, and in bondage to it; whilst Jacob was the Lord's freeman, and, as a prince, had power with God and with men, and prevailed: Esau was serviceable to Jacob, both in things temporal and spiritual; as reprobates are to the elect, for all things are for their sakes, and work together for their good; Jacob's being obliged to flee from his brother, was for his good; by this means he got him a suitable wife, and large substance: his brother's meeting him on his return, which gave him so much pain and uneasiness, issued in his spiritual good; this sent him to the throne of grace, to humble himself before God, acknowledge his mercies, and his dependence on him, to implore his help, and plead his promises; and thus the oracle was verified in the persons of Jacob and Esau.

 

[beloved57]

Pt 5 of romans 9:

Pt 5 rom 9



We now will move on and look at pauls next point vs



24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Paul is now beginning to expand on the mystery of the gospel, that is a little more explanation on what he said in vs 6,7:





6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.



What carnal Israel did not know, is that Gods eternal purpose [in Christ] included gentiles as His beloved covenant spiritual people. Yes folks, Israel has always been a spiritual people , carnal Israel only served as a type of the real thing..

Gods people always were recipients of a special inward call, a effectual call. This ideal is true with Abraham when he was called from the ur of chaldaen , or noah , how about Ruth the Moabite , or rahab ect , yes all the true Israel of God received an irresistible call to faith. This call was grounded in an eternal purpose within Christ Jesus..eph 3:

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:



You see Gods eternal purpose exceeded a exclusively ethnic people as the Jews prided themselves, but it was a people chosen to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ..

Rom 8:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is the purpose for all creation ladies and gentleman , for people to be conformed unto the image of Christ.. From the very first instance God said Let there be light, it was in pursuance of this great end.. God choose that this would be redemptive, in other words, this conforming to the image of Christ, God choose it to be through sin and it being demolished by Jesus Christ.. It was through this means He chose to make His wisdom and riches of his grace displayed..

Eph 2:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

A comparable passage is in col 1:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

You know, The preaching and teaching of the mystery, the gentile mystery, is part of the gospel message. In other words, we cannot teach the whole counsel of the gospel of Gods grace without inclusion of this great truth.

I know it offends many many proffesors of religion, like dispensationalist, and jews who sincerely believe , and others, who believe that God still has a program for the jews, ethnically. To me, that would nullify the revealation of this mystery, I don't see that happening. The nation of Israel etnically served only as a type.. I believe only elect jews will come into the knowledge of the truth. Now will there be more of them converted by the gospel in the last day before Christ ? I don't know..but if so, its soley because of election of grace and not ethnicity..rom 11:

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This same principal applies to the apostate gentile church as well , only the election of grace will be delivered from the whore,which we are presently witnessing..

So salvation says paul , is not because of ethnicity, works, effort, willing none of that but of him that calleth..

The elect gentiles of all nations are now being made manifest to be the children of God, when in times past, we were not a people. because outside of the national covenantal promises of Israel..

Eph 2:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [ Israel spiritually]

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

As we can see paul has taken the thought of individual Jewish salvation a long way arriving at this juncture we are now pondering..

Rom 9:

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.



In these verses Paul basically refers to OT scripture to highlight the fact that God has always only had a remnant within the nation of Israel, never was it the purpose of God to save the whole nation..



But look at vs 27, a remnant shall be saved

Again the focus is on Individual salvation..

Its always only a remnant that Gods acts favorably towards. Oft times the remnant is spoken of as the whole, i.e Israel, as we have seen, Israel does not mean the whole nation of Israel. The same with the word world, world does not mean all the individuals in the world.. In both instances Israel and world when in the context of salvation, the meaning is a remnant within instead of the whole..

But behold the wisdom of God, in saving all His elect, He saves all Israel and he saves all the world.. jn 3:

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved cp rom 11:

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



So we have here , all the elect in the world = Israel of God and all The Israel of God = The world God Loves and Christ died for…

Oh what wisdom from God..

Rom 11:

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I will conclude this study with comments on vs 30-33

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

Faith as well as salvation is Gods Gift to a chosen people. Faith has been so abused by false teachers, in that its being taught that its something a person must do to get saved.

This is a lie.

In Fact Faith is that gift of Gods grace via The Holy spirit of God that reveals the elects salvation to them. God the holy Spirit begets faith so the new creature will come to know of their Justification before God..

Faith is that which is resultive of God being true to His word. that He has chosen to save a people from their sins. This promise is solely contingent upon God, and Him alone, in His Triune perfections.. And sense the promise is only to save a people for His names sake, it can only be revealed to the recipients, because it [salvation] was totally outside of themselves. And that's what it means that Israel did not seek salvation by faith. They relied upon their law keeping for acceptance with God, instead of the promised messiah who came to Save His people from their sins.. The gentiles sought salvation by faith because of the word of promise that is God promised salvation to the gentiles. Gentile elect sought salvation based on Gods promise to save a people out from amongst them..

Acts 15:

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Notice, it was not all gentiles but some god would save, a remnant if you don't mind. But the point is, a limited definite atonement was preached here, so hence the gentiles would seek by Faith, the promises of God.

You see, unconditional election and definite atonement are imperative doctrines to preach and teach in order to bring about faith. Because then, one realizes or is made to see that salvation rest entirely out of themselves, and is only attained if God reveals it to you.. In other words, the death of Christ has to have already saved you in order for it to be revealed to you that your saved.. That way its perceived to be a gift of God, by His sovereign choice and disposal..

So that's what Faith is, Its God revealing Himself to you, that you are saved..

Paul said in gal 1

16To reveal his Son in me that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

That's faith, to have Christ revealed in us..

Its having our justification made known to us. Yes justification is by faith, because faith accompanies justification. Notice gal 3:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Justification in its totality includes faith; God would [by Himself] justify the heathen through, by means of Faith. That is He will reveal to the elect of the nations their salvation to their consciousness.. It does not say that God will justify the heathen because of their faith but through faith, the whole action is done by God, He justifies them by faith.

So when we read a scripture like rom 3:

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

We should understand that faith is included in being justified , the faith flows to us through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus , it's the grace or means of God making known to us of our redemption in Christ Jesus..



My desire is that God will raise up and inspire true gospel preachers, who will testify of this sovereign salvation, who preach this gospel of the kingdom , for the time is short, wont be long, we will hear that trumpet sound, and it will be all over, but the shouting..

So, Paul clears up, at least gives reason, why the Jews as a nation, or individuals, seem to be left out the salvaic purposes of God. Paul begins his strategic response by ..

Declaring that not all Israel is Israel , then, explains that by example of Isaac, the Jacob and easu, then delves into Gods prerogative to act sovereignly in disposing of men as he pleases, as he did with pharaoh [ in hardening] him. He then talks a little about different destinies for people and His righteousness in doing so.

He then talks about his call of the gentiles, and then the setting aside of Israel save a remnant, and then, the righteousness of faith..

So yes, rom 9 is speaking about individual salvation and not national corporate election.

I believe the whole book of romans is the gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of God. It reveals all the key gospel doctrines to feed the sheep and lambs of Christ…

Amen

 

[stovebolts]

Beloved57,

Reduce the size of your posts to manageable lengths.

 

[beloved57]

Beloved57,

Reduce the size of your posts to manageable lengths.

I am leaving them just like they are..if they are too long for you, by pass them..