Bible Study Predestination unto conformity to image of christ.

[stovebolts]

Let me rephrase that.


Reduce the size of any future posts.

According to the TOS which you agree to when you requested membership to 123 Christian forums.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info.

Consider this a friendly reminder to the terms which you have already agreed to.

Thank you.

 

[beloved57]

Let me rephrase that.


Reduce the size of any future posts.

According to the TOS which you agree to when you requested membership to 123 Christian forums.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info.

Consider this a friendly reminder to the terms which you have already agreed to.

Thank you.

so what is considered respectable length ? A paragraph ? A page ? what ? and i always provide sources if i used any, most of my post, i wrote myself..if i use someones else wrtings i make it clear in the post or prior too..

 

[Drew]

Good, it was their election as individuals that paul has in mind, when teaching on the purpose of election..rom 9:

The issue here is nations, and Paul uses references to Esau and Jacob to denote two great nations - Edom (Esau) and Israel (Jacob). As the reader should know, when Paul makes his statement in Romans 9 concerning Jacob and Esau, he quotes from Genesis 25:

The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger

The reference to the older serving the younger is in regards to spiritual salvation..easu never served jacob literally, neither did the edomites serve israel literally..show us if you can..

This view does not match what Paul says, nor what history shows. When Paul quotes Genesis 25, he clearly shows that he is talking about nations, not individuals. And the scriptures along with other sources indeed show that the nation of Israel did, in the main, dominate the nation of Edom.

From wikipedia:

"The Edomites (also known as Idumeans) came to be dominated by the larger kingdom of Israel, but from time to time fought wars with Israel throughout Israel's history."

And from the Scriptures (2 Samuel 8):

King David dedicated these articles to the LORD, as he had done with the silver and gold from all the nations he had subdued: 12 Edom and Moab, the Ammonites and the Philistines, and Amalek.

 

[Drew]

Further to this issue of Jacob and Esau as per Romans 9. We really need to be careful to respect Paul as the sophisticated, highly educated, and articulate thinker that he was. So when we realize that he is quoting from Genesis 25 in his "the elder will serve the younger" statement, we need to look at that passage and see what it is saying.

And, of course, the Genesis passage is all about nations. Now, are we going to effectively say that Paul is misleading us through this reference and that he is really concerned with Jacob and Esau as individuals? Or, are we going to respect that Paul does nothing by accident and does not make allusions to the Old Testament lightly? If we respect Paul's thinking, we have to "take the hint" and realize that Paul is making a point about nations here in Romans 9, not individuals. And this is made all the more clear by the entire structure of Romans 9. More about that in a later post.

 

[stovebolts]

Let me rephrase that.


Reduce the size of any future posts.

According to the TOS which you agree to when you requested membership to 123 Christian forums.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info.

Consider this a friendly reminder to the terms which you have already agreed to.

Thank you.

so what is considered respectable length ? A paragraph ? A page ? what ? and i always provide sources if i used any, most of my post, i wrote myself..if i use someones else wrtings i make it clear in the post or prior too..

If your using Microsoft Word as an editor, I'd recommend keeping it around a page at the most, but even that at times can be a bit hard to follow, or for others to ask questions. Use your better judgment.

Note: A couple of post up from here, your post was Nine pages... That's excessive. :wink:

I hope this clarifies my vagueness a bit. Any other questions or concerns, don't hesitate to send me a PM. If you feel I am being unfair, feel free to take it up with an administrator.

Now then, let's not hijack this thread. Continue on with your Study. :D

Thx.

 

[beloved57]

Let me rephrase that.


Reduce the size of any future posts.

According to the TOS which you agree to when you requested membership to 123 Christian forums.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info.

Consider this a friendly reminder to the terms which you have already agreed to.

Thank you.

so what is considered respectable length ? A paragraph ? A page ? what ? and i always provide sources if i used any, most of my post, i wrote myself..if i use someones else wrtings i make it clear in the post or prior too..

If your using Microsoft Word as an editor, I'd recommend keeping it around a page at the most, but even that at times can be a bit hard to follow, or for others to ask questions. Use your better judgment.

Note: A couple of post up from here, your post was Nine pages... That's excessive. :wink:

I hope this clarifies my vagueness a bit. Any other questions or concerns, don't hesitate to send me a PM. If you feel I am being unfair, feel free to take it up with an administrator.

Now then, let's not hijack this thread. Continue on with your Study. :D

Thx.

I will work with you..

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for complying with the TOS.

 

[Drew]

rom 8:28,29

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Please consider the following argument about Romans 8:29. There is no need to read this text as speaking of specific people. I will illustrate by a mathematical analogy.

Suppose we consider the mathematical transformation where an integer variable "x" is subject to the mathematical operation whereby it is multiplied by 2.

As a result of this mapping, "x" is "pre-destined to be conformed to the image of an even number" (all integers when multiplied by 2 yield even numbers). Note that "x" remains a variable.

Suppose that a mathematician A asks a mathematician B to give him 10 integers to subject to the transformation. But suppose that mathematician A can also "see into the future" and know what specific 10 numbers mathematician B will give him, of course without interfering with the ability of mathematician B to freely choose his 10 numbers.

We can truthfully claim the following:

1. Mathematician A did not pre-destine the numbers that mathematician B picked.

2. Mathematician A did pre-destine that the numbers given to him by mathematician B would be subjected to transformation that will convert them into the even numbers.

We could express this in Pauline fashion as follows:

"For which numbers mathematician A did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of an even number".

Is there an error of logic or reasoning here?

I cannot see one (at least not yet - I just came up with this). If the argument works, we need not conclude that any specific individuals are being pre-destined to anything in Romans 8:29.

 

[beloved57]

Please consider the following argument about Romans 8:29. There is no need to read this text as speaking of specific people. I will illustrate by a mathematical analogy.

You are merely attempting to use human wisdom to deny scripture..

 

[Drew]

Please consider the following argument about Romans 8:29. There is no need to read this text as speaking of specific people. I will illustrate by a mathematical analogy.

You are merely attempting to use human wisdom to deny scripture..

And what, precisely are you doing when you make statements like these:

What carnal Israel did not know, is that Gods eternal purpose [in Christ] included gentiles as His beloved covenant spiritual people. Yes folks, Israel has always been a spiritual people , carnal Israel only served as a type of the real thing..

Gods people always were recipients of a special inward call, a effectual call. This ideal is true with Abraham when he was called from the ur of chaldaen , or noah , how about Ruth the Moabite , or rahab ect , yes all the true Israel of God received an irresistible call to faith. This call was grounded in an eternal purpose within Christ Jesus..eph 3:

You see Gods eternal purpose exceeded a exclusively ethnic people as the Jews prided themselves, but it was a people chosen to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ..

And so on.

Are these extracts from the Scriptures? No. They are your analysis of what the scriptures mean.

So why am I not allowed to put forward my arguments as well?

If "human" reason is not a legitimate tool in this discussion, then let's close the forum down and merely advise people to read their Bibles, encouraging them to resist dialogue with others about what the Scriptures really mean.

 

[beloved57]

And what, precisely are you doing when you make statements like these:

This is about you attempting to use humanism to deny truth..i dont do that..

So why am I not allowed to put forward my arguments as well?

You can..whose stopping you ?

If "human" reason is not a legitimate tool in this discussion, then let's close the forum down and merely advise people to read their Bibles, encouraging them to resist dialogue with others about what the Scriptures really mean.

I noticed you have not said one thing about spiritual reason and wisdom..the bible talks about that you know especially when discussing spiritual matters..I dont percieve your input being of a enlightened source..all you have done is deny truth i have presented..

 

[stovebolts]

And what, precisely are you doing when you make statements like these:

This is about you attempting to use humanism to deny truth..i dont do that..

So why am I not allowed to put forward my arguments as well?

You can..whose stopping you ?

If "human" reason is not a legitimate tool in this discussion, then let's close the forum down and merely advise people to read their Bibles, encouraging them to resist dialogue with others about what the Scriptures really mean.

I noticed you have not said one thing about spiritual reason and wisdom..the bible talks about that you know especially when discussing spiritual matters..I dont percieve your input being of a enlightened source..all you have done is deny truth i have presented..

Let’s cease with the needless bantering as it serves no productive role toward this forum.

Let me make myself clear.

1. Scripture is the basis of study. Stay close to the text.

Anybody can sling mud or point the finger. Let’s dig into scripture. If you want to argue, argue scripture, not personal opinions or motives of the other which distracts from the subject. This isn't politics.

2. Keep your post to a manageable length where others can respond to a section of scripture as opposed to an entire article.

This forum is dedicated to the study of the Bible. When posts become too long, it makes it difficult for some to respond and the whole study can easily go off track. In my experience, shorter posts are easier to respond to and actually encourage responses from others.

3. We encourage your understanding of a text. If you wish to post snipits from a website, please make sure it accompanies your comments of the text. Excessive copy / paste from web sites are frowned upon.

In traditional Judaism the Rabbi would ask questions to probe ones understanding of a text. This wasn’t done to belittle the other, but rather to gauge how one understood, thus applied a passage. Jesus doesn’t want us to memorize scripture in a rote fashion; he wants us to live scripture actively.

If you've ever honestly studied for a Microsoft Certification, well then, learning by rote will get you nowhere in the field if you can't apply that knowledge. Another way to put it, being book smart aint what it's about.

4. If you disagree with an interpretation of scripture, think out your response according to the specific text and post accordingly.

It’s easy to banter… anyone can do that. Let’s bring the Bible Study forum to a new level where tough questions can be asked in a civil manner for the purpose of creating an appetite for a deeper learning . Please refer to the first guideline of this forum. Stay close t the text.

5. No debating doctrines or denominational differences. (E.G. TULIP, OSAS, Purgatory, Papacy etc)

If you’re looking for a debate, you’re in the wrong forum. We have a Debate forum which is underutilized just for that purpose. Feel free to contact a moderator for a one on one debate anytime. If you wish it to be open for all to participate, feel free to take it up to the AP forum.

Thank you for your consideration. No more reminders will be issued.