Pregnant woman fired for not marrying fiance

[Obadiah]

I'm having a hard time understanding how the question of who granted divorces in Biblical times applies to whether or not God needs permission from the secular government of the United States before He can marry a couple?

 

[jasonc]

I'm having a hard time understanding how the question of who granted divorces in Biblical times applies to whether or not God needs permission from the secular government of the United States before He can marry a couple?

both are related. if I never marry legally. and I go to a store, what will make them serve me? I don't serve Christian couples. or make them cakes. funny that has to be dealt with. or the gay ones too. it works both ways. so I need a pastor to bless my marriage? where is that in the bible? did paul marry?

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, you summed it up perfectly. I'm so sick of people feeling like they have to run to the gov't for recognition. Furthermore, if I could renounce my birth certificate I would. It is a vile contract bonding a person to a government as a slave to a master!

If people get involved in genealogy especially during the early days of this country they will find census records of families of husband, wife, and children, but no marriage record on file. This is also true of birth records. My great- grandmother was born in Colorado before Colorado kept birth records. The only reason I knew she was is because of census records in later years. Then I asked family that knew.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm having a hard time understanding how the question of who granted divorces in Biblical times applies to whether or not God needs permission from the secular government of the United States before He can marry a couple?

Well, that is interesting. According to the Law of Moses there was not anyone outside of the husband himself that granted a divorce. The husband just wrote his wife a paper that said he was setting her free. In Judaism today this is called a 'get' and is still the method of divorce in Judaism. A wife is not allowed to do the same, today. Only the husband has that right. A secular divorce is not recognized in Judaism.

 

[Obadiah]

both are related. if I never marry legally. and I go to a store, what will make them serve me? I don't serve Christian couples. or make them cakes. funny that has to be dealt with. or the gay ones too. it works both ways. so I need a pastor to bless my marriage? where is that in the bible? did paul marry?

Sorry, I'm just not following your line of logic in this. A store won't serve you because you don't have a secular marriage license but is required to serve people who do? Never heard of that where I live. Never even been asked. I'm just not understanding your point at all. Sorry. Maybe I'm just being dense today.

 

[Obadiah]

Well, that is interesting. According to the Law of Moses there was not anyone outside of the husband himself that granted a divorce. The husband just wrote his wife a paper that said he was setting her free. In Judaism today this is called a 'get' and is still the method of divorce in Judaism. A wife is not allowed to do the same, today. Only the husband has that right. A secular divorce is not recognized in Judaism.

So for Jews a secular marriage license means nothing then? And for Christians it seems to follow that lacking any command in scripture, it means even less to God.

I still don't really see the harm in getting it (and I did when I got married, but just because that's what everyone did, not out of any spiritual conviction that I needed it) but I view my vow to God as far more powerful and far more binding than secular government's permission and approval of the person I was wanting to marry (which can be rescinded at the drop of a hat and in over half of all marriages that is exactly what happens). For a Christian, that vow to God is what makes the relationship proper and not sinful, not whether or not the government gave us a license. For the non-christian, well, they've got bigger problems to worry about.

 

[petester]

Mayebe they take that stance because of her job working with children might influence them in a negative way.For me the time I spent in Christian Academy from about 1st to 4th grade were very influential.What I was taught are lessons I thank God for.I can appreciate their view if thats the case.After all corruption of the youth is why we are the way we are right now.Its my opinion corruption of the young is the worst sin because even though the corruptor dies the corruption passes to the next generation for this reason we have failed as a species to fully realize our spiritual potential.

 

[Deborah13]

So for Jews a secular marriage license means nothing then? And for Christians it seems to follow that lacking any command in scripture, it means even less to God.

I still don't really see the harm in getting it (and I did when I got married, but just because that's what everyone did, not out of any spiritual conviction that I needed it) but I view my vow to God as far more powerful and far more binding than secular government's permission and approval of the person I was wanting to marry (which can be rescinded at the drop of a hat and in over half of all marriages that is exactly what happens). For a Christian, that vow to God is what makes the relationship proper and not sinful, not whether or not the government gave us a license. For the non-christian, well, they've got bigger problems to worry about.

What I said was is that a secular divorce doesn't mean anything in Judaism and yes I would add that a secular marriage license wouldn't either.
When marriage licenses first became a major issue in the government in the US it was racially motivated. There were laws against interracial marriages. The Supreme Court kept ruling that co-habitation was sufficient evidence and therefore common law under the Constitutional rights of all men. But because of interracial marriage law there was attempts to redefine it and add the necessity of the license/permission to marry.
It's actually defined in Black's Law Dictionary. Here's a good link for anyone who is truly interested in what the law is, what is common law marriage, the Supreme Court ruling which still stands and the legality of all common law marriages in all states. Statutory law does not overrule Constitutional common law.
"Here is the holding from the decision of the United States Supreme Court in Meister v. Moore 96 US 76 (1877):
"As before remarked, the statutes are held merely directory; because marriage is a thing of common right..." [emphasis added]" http://www.originalintent.org/edu/marriage.php

 

[jasonc]

Sorry, I'm just not following your line of logic in this. A store won't serve you because you don't have a secular marriage license but is required to serve people who do? Never heard of that where I live. Never even been asked. I'm just not understanding your point at all. Sorry. Maybe I'm just being dense today.

a doctor that if there is no legal contract recognized today as we see it. doesn't HAVE to talk to YOU the spouse if he or she doesn't agree with the marriage.

I know people that wont rent to fornicators, gay couples as well.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/landlord-discriminates-gay-couple-regular-1704462-Oct2014/
churches own rental properties. should we the church be forced to rent to them?

 

[jasonc]

What I said was is that a secular divorce doesn't mean anything in Judaism and yes I would add that a secular marriage license wouldn't either.
When marriage licenses first became a major issue in the government in the US it was racially motivated. There were laws against interracial marriages. The Supreme Court kept ruling that co-habitation was sufficient evidence and therefore common law under the Constitutional rights of all men. But because of interracial marriage law there was attempts to redefine it and add the necessity of the license/permission to marry.
It's actually defined in Black's Law Dictionary. Here's a good link for anyone who is truly interested in what the law is, what is common law marriage, the Supreme Court ruling which still stands and the legality of all common law marriages in all states. Statutory law does not overrule Constitutional common law.
"Here is the holding from the decision of the United States Supreme Court in Meister v. Moore 96 US 76 (1877):
"As before remarked, the statutes are held merely directory; because marriage is a thing of common right..." [emphasis added]" http://www.originalintent.org/edu/marriage.php

so its now a sin if two men live together?

uhm so its ok if just divorce my wife then and she said lets do this today to me

at age 62 let me divorce you for benefits.

? she had no intention of leaving. so how does one know that one is called into marriage. truth be told I was told it wasn't and went ahead and married. therefore since god didn't honor it and im not married.

since you went there, where does it say I must ask god for a marriage first? Abraham didn't. he told his serveants where to go and why, david just told saul give me michal. she wasn't and he then took her from her lawful husband. no prayer, in davids case.

 

[Deborah13]

a doctor that if there is no legal contract recognized today as we see it. doesn't HAVE to talk to YOU the spouse if he or she doesn't agree with the marriage.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

I know people that wont rent to fornicators, gay couples as well.

http://www.dailyedge.ie/landlord-discriminates-gay-couple-regular-1704462-Oct2014/
churches own rental properties. should we the church be forced to rent to them?

The word of God is very clear the sodomy is sin.
Marriage is not sin.
How many landlords do you know who ask for a marriage license?
.

 

[Deborah13]

so its now a sin if two men live together?

What is the definition of co-habitation when referring to couples? It doesn't mean two people living in the same abode. Words mean certain things when they are used to define a law.

uhm so its ok if just divorce my wife then and she said lets do this today to me? she had no intention of leaving. so how does one know that one is called into marriage. truth be told I was told it wasn't and went ahead and married. therefore since god didn't honor it and im not married.

I would not presume to know anything about your commitment to your marriage. But if you made a promise you made a promise and I think God expects us to keep our promises.

since you went there, where does it say I must ask god for a marriage first? Abraham didn't. he told his serveants where to go and why, david just told saul give me michal. she wasn't and he then took her from her lawful husband. no prayer, in davids case.

I never said anything about asking God for a marriage first. I don't know what you are referring to. Sorry.

 

[Obadiah]

a doctor that if there is no legal contract recognized today as we see it. doesn't HAVE to talk to YOU the spouse if he or she doesn't agree with the marriage...

So even with the license he doesn't have to talk to the spouse. That happened to me. Married with a license and the doctor refused to talk to me without my spouse present or having signed written authorization. I had to wait and then go back when she was available to go with me. So the marriage license still meant nothing.

I know people that wont rent to fornicators, gay couples as well...

These days that's completely illegal, at least in any state I've lived or where I've been licensed in real estate. Has nothing to do with a marriage license.

...churches own rental properties. should we the church be forced to rent to them?

I have no idea about law in London, nor does it affect me. But sadly, when they passed the gay marriage bill here in Washington State it did indeed become illegal for a church to refuse to rent property to a gay couple. That was well hidden in the text of the law, but still there due to association with another law that was already on the books. The two laws together made it illegal for a church that has established itself as a landlord to refuse gays. But once again, it makes no difference whether or not they have a marriage license. Also, I don't think the topic here had anything to do with gays or gay marriage. The couple in question are heterosexual and I thought it was understood we are talking about Biblical heterosexual marriage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Given the time and the culture we live in today I would not attend a church nor fellowship with 'Christians' who decided they don't have to 'get' married--for what that means in this culture--to be married. I could not honestly fellowship with people who are having sex without being married. That has been recognized as, and considered, fornication for so long in our culture that there is no excuse for the Spirit-filled Christian to just decide they can do that and can call it 'marriage' just because they want to.

It makes my blood boil every time I see what the church has done to the grace of God. Frankly, I'm appalled at the number of people in this forum who have rationalized sleeping with someone who you are not married to.

 

[jasonc]

I think you're right. It might be a matter of what power to swap our enslavement too. If that's the case, I'll choose God over the secular government.

uhm so god doesn't send people to verify that we are called to do things. in marriage there is to be accountability to be sure she or he is right? just if it feels like god is in it, it must be?

 

[Kathi]

Given the time and the culture we live in today I would not attend a church nor fellowship with 'Christians' who decided they don't have to 'get' married--for what that means in this culture--to be married. I could not honestly fellowship with people who are having sex without being married. That has been recognized as, and considered, fornication for so long in our culture that there is no excuse for the Spirit-filled Christian to just decide they can do that and can call it 'marriage' just because they want to.

It makes my blood boil every time I see what the church has done to the grace of God. Frankly, I'm appalled at the number of people in this forum who have rationalized sleeping with someone who you are not married to.

 

[jasonc]

Given the time and the culture we live in today I would not attend a church nor fellowship with 'Christians' who decided they don't have to 'get' married--for what that means in this culture--to be married. I could not honestly fellowship with people who are having sex without being married. That has been recognized as, and considered, fornication for so long in our culture that there is no excuse for the Spirit-filled Christian to just decide they can do that and can call it 'marriage' just because they want to.

It makes my blood boil every time I see what the church has done to the grace of God. Frankly, I'm appalled at the number of people in this forum who have rationalized sleeping with someone who you are not married to.

admin and staff no less.

with that argument being not its not spelled out I can justify two wives!

 

[jasonc]

I still don't know who granted divorces to Christians in Paul's day. I don't believe the gentile Christians were under the authority of the Sanhedrin and I don't understand what you mean about Greek culture granting divorces. Culture isn't an entity that grants anything. It's just a form of lifestyle.

right sure and peer pressure isn't a factor at all what we do. be gay when the cohabation law issues was around and do that and what would happen? oh you died.

 

[Deborah13]

admin and staff no less.

with that argument being not its not spelled out I can justify two wives!

I'm not sure that you are fellow shipping with me anymore seeing you agreed with Jethro's post that he couldn't but I'm stick my neck out and take that chance.
I think we have scripture in the NT that shows that one spouse is the perfect will of God. Paul instructs that the elders can only have one wife. Therefore, seeing that they are the examples to others in the church of a Godly person and life style then that is the lay persons guidelines.
Not only that polygamy is illegal in this country.

 

[Deborah13]

right sure and peer pressure isn't a factor at all what we do. be gay when the cohabation law issues was around and do that and what would happen? oh you died.

Gay cohabitation is sin.
And was illegal until recently.