Pregnant woman fired for not marrying fiance

[Jethro Bodine]

Liken this to the head covering spoken about in the Corinthian church. We all know a head covering is in and of itself nothing. But in a society where it does mean something it would be a sin to not wear one. Likewise for marriage licenses. We all know what they mean today. To purposely go against that meaning is the same as the woman who simply refused to wear a head covering in that day and culture. The argument 'it means nothing' is entirely false and inapplicable. We all know what a marriage license means in our society.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." therefore, the question is, to WHOM does marriage belong? God or Ceasar. If you believe it belongs to "Caesar" then by all means, beg him for recognition of your marriage, but if you feel it belongs to God, then you have no need of "Caesar's" approval.

Did taxes being of Caesar mean Christians don't have to pay them?

 

[ReginaForbes]

Are you afraid your commitment is not as strong as a piece of paper binding you to the other person? Of course you'll say 'no'. Then I will ask, "then why don't you just do it?" What are you afraid of?

I liken it to baptism. The 'believer' can insist it has no bearing on their relationship with God and that baptism is really just a big nothing. But if that's the case why do they go out of their way to avoid it, almost despising it? It's very irrational logic. The rest of us can see right through it.

HA! Our marriage covenant contract hangs up on the wall of our living room in our home. To our families we have made vows. In our family Bible, as it was done by our ancestors, our marriage is recorded. We have made an unbreakable vow to each other and to God that THERE IS NO DIVORCE. But if you don't believe me, that's fine and dandy. You were not there on our wedding day.

 

[ReginaForbes]

Jethro, are you saying because it is issued by a gov't it is of God? Because homosexual marriages are being recognized by the gov't as well, does that make it OK with God?
And what if the gov't dissolves all Christian marriages, does that mean God has dissolved them too?
During WWII in Germany all marriages between Jews and Gentiles were dissolved by the Nazi Gov't. Do you believe that the Nazis were doing the work of the Lord? And what if a Jew wanted to marry a Gentile at that time but the gov't refused to recognize the marriage, does that mean God refused to recognize it as well?
What of people who do get married with a pastor and NOT a license? Are you saying that Christian pastor is not serving God because he does not serve the state?

 

[Kathi]

Without the legal commitment that God requires in marriage you are doing nothing but fornicating. The way we make that legal commitment today is we get a marriage license.

 

[Deborah13]

Liken this to the head covering spoken about in the Corinthian church. We all know a head covering is in and of itself nothing. But in a society where it does mean something it would be a sin to not wear one. Likewise for marriage licenses. We all know what they mean today. To purposely go against that meaning is the same as the woman who simply refused to wear a head covering in that day and culture. The argument 'it means nothing' is entirely false and inapplicable. We all know what a marriage license means in our society.

Then why does my state and several other states NOT require a marriage license?
I think it is pretty obvious that NOT all people in our society believe as you do. The Libertarian stance on marriage licenses it that they are illegal under the Constitution. It is a God given right to marry and the government should not have any right to deny the right to marry or make any permission from them a per request.
Just recently, 2009 in Louisiana, a civil servant denied a marriage license to an interracial couple.
"State laws prohibiting interracial marriage were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States in the 1967 case Loving v. Virginia."

If you can't show where GOD says it is a sin not to have a piece of paper or some other scripture that would speak to this issue that shows by clear implication that it is sin, then I don't believe you have made your point.

 

[Obadiah]

Interesting. As I've stated before in this thread, I'm not against getting a marriage license even though I can understand some of the reasons people have given against them. Yet when Jethro says:

Without the legal commitment that God requires in marriage you are doing nothing but fornicating...

he fails to cite any scripture where God has told us this. It seems to me if God commanded something, it would be in scripture. The only real support for this idea seems to have originally come from Jewish tradition (of which I admit I don't know nearly as much as I probably should) and from modern day church tradition. None of that is the word of God. I don't think we are supposed to make up our own rules and then use them to condemn others of sin against God.

Then I read this:

I'm married without a license. My husband and I felt that the procuring of a license violates Exodus 23:32, Exodus 34:12, Deuteronomy 7:2, etc...

which seems to me to be scriptural support for actually not getting the license! I never thought of it this way until now! But I have to agree.

See unlike most non-christians I know, I believe and trust more in God than I do in our secular government. Therefore I put a lot more weight in a vow or commitment I made to and in front of God then I do in any secular government's granting of permission for me to marry someone. The secular government's license offers zero encouragement to honor my vows to God or to my spouse since (as has been pointed out many times) that same secular government that gives me that permission to marry also allows me to break those vows for literally any reason at all and even for NO reason at all through "no fault divorce" God, on the other hand, tells me "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:6b) and that the only reasons I may divorce is if my spouse commits adultery or fornication. (Mathew 19:9). Even in that case I still have the option (which I consider the preferred option) of forgiving and working to heal the harm done.

I just can not comprehend how a New Testament Christian could think that a license and permission from a government that so blatantly goes against God's word would be so important to God that He would consider anyone not getting that government permission for marriage to be living in sin even after they have made that vow and commitment before Him. This puts the authority of the secular government above the authority of God! That certainly explains why He gave no such command and never said marriage without the permission of the secular government is a sin.

 

[jasonc]

Can you write your own will? yes So you can write any agreement or contract you wish and the courts will uphold that contract. You don't have to ask the states permission to enter into a legal contract to buy a house, a car, etc. You and your wife can draw up any contract between you that you choose to and it is legally binding. A pre-nup agreement is not written by the state and you don't need the states permission to write one. But the court will uphold it. Because it's a contract. Under Tort law even an oral contract will be upheld in court if you can prove that there was one. So why should we have to get the states permission to get married?
I guess some people just feel they need one in order to do their duty.

Did Joseph have to go to the government to get permission to be betrothed to Mary? Or could they enter into a contract without asking the government first?

they had the permission of their parents. when it came time for a man to marry a widow. in a large city, Jerusalem wasn't small. how would they know her house? it wasn't orally remembered where did that lineage come from? oh its all written down. the government records that you are married. it verifies only this. you are able to be married. unless want to argue for incest. a 9 year old marrying a man my age. there has to be limits and whom defines them. you did marry and have witnesses. soldiers do this at times.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2009/10/07/129654/soldiers-charged-in-marriage-fraud.html

so we DONT need to have it recorded?

so know I will play the advocate for incest. party a is under 18 but over 13, parents approve and quote german law, and are willing to pay for an abortion. based on what moral values showed that be denied? its consentual. should the government be involved then if so then what about those kids that are messed up from their acts of procreation? a minor is given consent to have that marriage. there has to be some limit.

btw isreal is already doing this and well, try getting married there. oh wait you aren't one of these? civil unions? less then a marriage, marriages done by the orthodox, jews and catholics, muslims. all other Christians must beg to be married by the others so its a civil union for the Christian like me. divorce? oh the state doesn't do that. go see those religious folks. good luck, the jew would tell my wife she isn't a jew and im not a jew in practicing it and wont do it. the muslims the same. the rcc and orthodox I would have to become one of them.

 

[ReginaForbes]

Then why does my state and several other states NOT require a marriage license?
I think it is pretty obvious that NOT all people in our society believe as you do. The Libertarian stance on marriage licenses it that they are illegal under the Constitution. It is a God given right to marry and the government should not have any right to deny the right to marry or make any permission from them a per request.
Just recently, 2009 in Louisiana, a civil servant denied a marriage license to an interracial couple.
"State laws prohibiting interracial marriage were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States in the 1967 case Loving v. Virginia."

If you can't show where GOD says it is a sin not to have a piece of paper or some other scripture that would speak to this issue that shows by clear implication that it is sin, then I don't believe you have made your point.

Deborah, you summed it up perfectly. I'm so sick of people feeling like they have to run to the gov't for recognition. Furthermore, if I could renounce my birth certificate I would. It is a vile contract bonding a person to a government as a slave to a master!

 

[jasonc]

Deborah, you summed it up perfectly. I'm so sick of people feeling like they have to run to the gov't for recognition. Furthermore, if I could renounce my birth certificate I would. It is a vile contract bonding a person to a government as a slave to a master!

gee how did the land that was lost to the original Hebrew get returned in the year of the jubilee? 49th year. they had to have records.

records of whom owned and whom was the wife of that person so that the son could legally be the owner of that land. illegimate child! no land for YOU! its also alluded to in the book of Nehemiah when the levites couldn't reconcile their family name. so they weren't allowed to be levites.

 

[reba]

a little info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_license

 

[jasonc]

Interesting. As I've stated before in this thread, I'm not against getting a marriage license even though I can understand some of the reasons people have given against them. Yet when Jethro says:
he fails to cite any scripture where God has told us this. It seems to me if God commanded something, it would be in scripture. The only real support for this idea seems to have originally come from Jewish tradition (of which I admit I don't know nearly as much as I probably should) and from modern day church tradition. None of that is the word of God. I don't think we are supposed to make up our own rules and then use them to condemn others of sin against God.

Then I read this:
which seems to me to be scriptural support for actually not getting the license! I never thought of it this way until now! But I have to agree.

See unlike most non-christians I know, I believe and trust more in God than I do in our secular government. Therefore I put a lot more weight in a vow or commitment I made to and in front of God then I do in any secular government's granting of permission for me to marry someone. The secular government's license offers zero encouragement to honor my vows to God or to my spouse since (as has been pointed out many times) that same secular government that gives me that permission to marry also allows me to break those vows for literally any reason at all and even for NO reason at all through "no fault divorce" God, on the other hand, tells me "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:6b) and that the only reasons I may divorce is if my spouse commits adultery or fornication. (Mathew 19:9). Even in that case I still have the option (which I consider the preferred option) of forgiving and working to heal the harm done.

I just can not comprehend how a New Testament Christian could think that a license and permission from a government that so blatantly goes against God's word would be so important to God that He would consider anyone not getting that government permission for marriage to be living in sin even after they have made that vow and commitment before Him. This puts the authority of the secular government above the authority of God! That certainly explains why He gave no such command and never said marriage without the permission of the secular government is a sin.

uhm so whom granted the divorces in pauls day? the church or the greek culture?

 

[reba]

My guess ? which ever authority they were married under

 

[jasonc]

My guess ? which ever authority they were married under

so if my dad didn't want me to be married to tammy. he can annul it back then? interesting. so we are merely arguing over what power to swap our enslavement too. what if I wanted to divorce and he refused? what then? see where this goes?

 

[reba]

One was government the other was temple right?

 

[Obadiah]

uhm so whom granted the divorces in pauls day? the church or the greek culture?

I don't know. I don't think the Bible mentions that and I'm not a good enough historian to know. How does that relate to my post that you quoted? Maybe I'm not understanding your question...

 

[jasonc]

so if god never ordained it. I can just leave my spouse? it wasn't a marriage in his eyes in the first place. careful with that statement. its not biblical.

 

[jasonc]

I don't know. I don't think the Bible mentions that and I'm not a good enough historian to know. How does that relate to my post that you quoted? Maybe I'm not understanding your question...

because if god didn't ordain it or he did and the marriage failed and the church is the one that put them together then whom will grant their divorce. in jewry the Sanhedrin did that.

 

[Obadiah]

so if my dad didn't want me to be married to tammy. he can annul it back then? interesting. so we are merely arguing over what power to swap our enslavement too. what if I wanted to divorce and he refused? what then? see where this goes?

I think you're right. It might be a matter of what power to swap our enslavement too. If that's the case, I'll choose God over the secular government.

 

[Obadiah]

because if god didn't ordain it or he did and the marriage failed and the church is the one that put them together then whom will grant their divorce. in jewry the Sanhedrin did that.

I still don't know who granted divorces to Christians in Paul's day. I don't believe the gentile Christians were under the authority of the Sanhedrin and I don't understand what you mean about Greek culture granting divorces. Culture isn't an entity that grants anything. It's just a form of lifestyle.