Pregnant woman fired for not marrying fiance

[Obadiah]

I was at the beachside church of Christ by the sea. its a umc church. it has like the original church that birthed that one a nursery. I wonder do you all hold them to that standard? most of those are ministries too. I understand the holiness thing but its really done in a political way at times. It shouldn't be. but it is. I have been around that to have seen it.

And even after watching the video it still doesn't say if they handled this in the Biblical way according to Matt 18. I've found most churches in my experience don't bother to do that in these situations, but the ones that do will go out of their way to point out that they followed scripture when they did it. The pastor mentions nothing of this. I wonder if this had been taken all the way to the Biblical step of presenting it to the congregation, how many congregation members would have thought of their own sin and, remembering how Jesus handled things, and would have simply said "go and sin no more" instead of firing her. Afterall, she did say in the video they were going to get married. They just didn't want to be forced into it without having time to plan their wedding how they wanted it. She never said she rejected the request to get married or denied that she had sinned. She sounded like she was probably repentant. Like Jesus said, let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[jasonc]

And even after watching the video it still doesn't say if they handled this in the Biblical way according to Matt 18. I've found most churches in my experience don't bother to do that in these situations, but the ones that do will go out of their way to point out that they followed scripture when they did it. The pastor mentions nothing of this. I wonder if this had been taken all the way to the Biblical step of presenting it to the congregation, how many congregation members would have thought of their own sin and, remembering how Jesus handled things, and would have simply said "go and sin no more" instead of firing her. Afterall, she did say in the video they were going to get married. They just didn't want to be forced into it without having time to plan their wedding how they wanted it. She never said she rejected the request to get married or denied that she had sinned. She sounded like she was probably repentant. Like Jesus said, let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

I do remember her saying that. she was planning to marry but wanted the family to be ready. which is her right! why couldn't they have settle for that? ok we understand, but uhm she is still living with him. that is a problem.

 

[Obadiah]

...Did the woman know the church's expectations when she was hired? If so, she should stop complaining and find another job.

She said in the video she new nothing about it and was never given the handbook or signed any agreement to this with them (as the pastor is claiming all employees are required to do.) Seems hard to believe she would claim she never signed it knowing all along that all they would have to do is bring it out to show her signature.

 

[jasonc]

She said in the video she new nothing about it and was never given the handbook or signed any agreement to this with them (as the pastor is claiming all employees are required to do.) Seems hard to believe she would claim she never signed it knowing all along that all they would have to do is bring it out to show her signature.

I was wondering where that old cop would show up.lol

 

[Obadiah]

...she is still living with him. that is a problem.

Yes, I believe she was still living with him. But God only claimed fornication and adultery are sins, not living in the same house. When we use "living together" as a euphemism for having sex outside of marriage we are judging unrighteously. I think the best way would be for one of them to live somewhere else until they are married (It doesn't have to take THAT long to plan a wedding) if they can. But if that's not practical right now (financial reasons or whatever) we have to understand that we have no more right to assume they are sinning in their house by having sex anymore than we have the right to assume they are committing any other sin behind closed doors. We also have to remember that not living in the same house rarely prevents any couple from having sex together (whether in sin or not) when they want to.

Added: See Jason, more of the cop logic coming out!

 

[Mike S]

She said in the video she new nothing about it and was never given the handbook or signed any agreement to this with them (as the pastor is claiming all employees are required to do.) Seems hard to believe she would claim she never signed it knowing all along that all they would have to do is bring it out to show her signature.

Yeah, this kind of story almost never gives all the relevant information.

My posts are just to explain what I would expect to take place in our church. And, yes, we do handle things biblically, but at some point you either have standards or you don't. My comments are filtered through the experiences we're having in our denomination with clergy openly defying our social principles, the principles of no practicing gay clergy, and no same sex marriages.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, I believe she was still living with him. But God only claimed fornication and adultery are sins, not living in the same house. When we use "living together" as a euphemism for having sex outside of marriage we are judging unrighteously. I think the best way would be for one of them to live somewhere else until they are married (It doesn't have to take THAT long to plan a wedding) if they can. But if that's not practical right now (financial reasons or whatever) we have to understand that we have no more right to assume they are sinning in their house by having sex anymore than we have the right to assume they are committing any other sin behind closed doors. We also have to remember that not living in the same house rarely prevents any couple from having sex together (whether in sin or not) when they want to.

yes but well being a man that struggles with lust. I seriously doubt she got pregnant just from act of sin. likely they were doing it for some time and when one is in love as you know it doesn't just stop once you let that valve open. the temptation to sin is greater then we like to admit. oh I will just be alone with her. , its just a kiss, a sleep over. I have failed doing just that.

 

[reba]

the only difference between her and anyone else her sin shows.. we all hide ours easier

 

[Obadiah]

yes but well being a man that struggles with lust. I seriously doubt she got pregnant just from act of sin. likely they were doing it for some time and when one is in love as you know it doesn't just stop once you let that valve open. the temptation to sin is greater then we like to admit. oh I will just be alone with her. , its just a kiss, a sleep over. I have failed doing just that.

I agree completely that it's hard and it's very unlikely. That's why I agree that one of them should move out until the wedding. But if the sin was pointed out Biblicaly and they repented it's not up to anyone to assume the repentance is a lie without evidence. When Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more, He didn't assign someone to follow her around and report back to Him if she continued to sin. That was left between her and God the Father. I think it would be wise for church leadership in this position to do the same. If they say they repented but had no intention to actually repent, God will know and the repercussions of that can be far worse than loosing a nursery job in a church! But short of having further proof that the sin continues, that should be left to God. As far as a testimony to the congregation, if it has to be talked about, it is a good opportunity to set an example of how to handle sin through Matt 18 and how to forgive a repentant sinner. Unless someone can prove the repentance was fake and the sin continued, there is no reason to treat it like it has.

But, once again, there is almost certainly a lot more to this story than we are being told. What we've been told is very little. So I'm not going to say the church was wrong. Just giving my opinions on what I see as the right way to handle it. Maybe part of that "right way" (if they followed all the steps of Matt 18 first) also could have been to temporarily remove her from her job until they get married rather than firing her.

 

[jasonc]

I agree completely that it's hard and it's very unlikely. That's why I agree that one of them should move out until the wedding. But if the sin was pointed out Biblicaly and they repented it's not up to anyone to assume the repentance is a lie without evidence. When Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more, He didn't assign someone to follow her around and report back to Him if she continued to sin. That was left between her and God the Father. I think it would be wise for church leadership in this position to do the same. If they say they repented but had no intention to actually repent, God will know and the repercussions of that can be far worse than loosing a nursery job in a church! But short of having further proof that the sin continues, that should be left to God. As far as a testimony to the congregation, if it has to be talked about, it is a good opportunity to set an example of how to handle sin through Matt 18 and how to forgive a repentant sinner. Unless someone can prove the repentance was fake and the sin continued, there is no reason to treat it like it has.

But, once again, there is almost certainly a lot more to this story than we are being told. What we've been told is very little. So I'm not going to say the church was wrong. Just giving my opinions on what I see as the right way to handle it. Maybe part of that "right way" (if they followed all the steps of Matt 18 first) also could have been to temporarily remove her from her job until they get married rather than firing her.

it wouldn't be fair if we didn't to the church or her. cnn and any media outlet will paint the story as they see fit. it could be the church did all that and the media made them look bad.

 

[Knotical]

Regardless of the full story a righteous Church should not employ a couple living together.I know living together is very excepted by this world but it is wrong....period.

Was that included in the article? True, the background does already lend itself toward this lady being let go because of her actions. However, I should hope the leadership of this church had already approached this couple on account of their sins prior to just firing her.

 

[jasonc]

the only difference between her and anyone else her sin shows.. we all hide ours easier

I don't sin. yall do.

 

[Obadiah]

I don't sin. yall do.

Yeah, me neither. I'm perfect in every way.

 

[reba]

Yes, I believe she was still living with him. But God only claimed fornication and adultery are sins, not living in the same house. When we use "living together" as a euphemism for having sex outside of marriage we are judging unrighteously. I think the best way would be for one of them to live somewhere else until they are married (It doesn't have to take THAT long to plan a wedding) if they can. But if that's not practical right now (financial reasons or whatever) we have to understand that we have no more right to assume they are sinning in their house by having sex anymore than we have the right to assume they are committing any other sin behind closed doors. We also have to remember that not living in the same house rarely prevents any couple from having sex together (whether in sin or not) when they want to.

Added: See Jason, more of the cop logic coming out!

I believe christians should marry according to the law where they live.
That said can any one show me a scripture saying getting married is going to the government for a licence?

 

[Obadiah]

I believe christians should marry according to the law where they live.
That said can any one show me a scripture saying getting married is going to the government for a licence?

Good point. We have no Biblical instructions on what constitutes a Biblical marriage other than a man and woman "becoming one flesh". That would be a good topic for discussion if people could stay civil and not fight over it.

Are we really absolutely sure that if a man and woman simply agree with each other before God that they will now become "one flesh" with each other and "marry" each other, that they aren't really married in God's eyes? I agree we are probably wise to do it in the way of church tradition and government guidelines, but are we really living in sin if we do it any other way? (And what scripture supports that?)

 

[hallowbonnie]

Im really glad this was brought up.I had some coworkers who are all divorced discussing the next time they get married saying they wanted to marry in mexico or another country just not in the us because they didnt want to go through the legal expensive mess of a divorce again just in case .In a way I can understand because it frustrates me to still be legally married after almost 5 years but I cant afford to pay for it like he can and he is dragging it out .Anyway what do you guys think?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ok, what if she repented?

And that really is the key to the whole thing. And whether she is a member of the church, or just an employee.

 

[Obadiah]

Im really glad this was brought up.I had some coworkers who are all divorced discussing the next time they get married saying they wanted to marry in mexico or another country just not in the us because they didnt want to go through the legal expensive mess of a divorce again just in case .In a way I can understand because it frustrates me to still be legally married after almost 5 years but I cant afford to pay for it like he can and he is dragging it out .Anyway what do you guys think?

I'm pretty sure if someone gets divorced in the US it doesn't make any difference where they got married as long as they actually are married under the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is a difficult topic. On the one hand who is anyone to judge? On the other hand 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 seems to be quite clear about how we should deal with brothers and sisters in the church. The problem is, there is not one of us that could claim innocent.

When you repent and ask forgiveness for your own wrong doing you are blameless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course we are forgetting that Jesus said His church would only have the cream of the crop of the socialites, and that no one could belong if they were sinners. (Uh, He DID say that, right? I mean, that's how most "Christians" seem to expect "their" church to be..... and, is THAT ever a joke!)

Repentance and God's forgiveness make anyone the cream of the crop. No matter how many times you have to do that.