Preterism and the book of Daniel

[RND]

On another forum I am in a discussion with a staunch preterist that doesn't seem inclined or willing and able to answer my questions regarding the prophecies of the book of Daniel and how those prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD.

For example, in Daniel 7 we are told that:

Dan 7:23 ¶ Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

In that the book of Daniel is a chiastic book (written in chiasim) and that chapter 2 mirrors chapter 7 we know that the fourth kingdom, represented by iron, is Rome. My questions, which are many, are these: If Jesus returned in 70AD, as my preterist friend believes, then when did the ten kingdoms arise out of Rome? Who is the other horn that comes out of the midst of the ten kings that subdues these three kings? When did this happen? Who are these three kings? Why did Rome continue as a nation and continue to subdue the earth long after 70AD? What are the words that this horn spoke against the Most High that came from the midst of the ten horns? What laws and times were changed by this other horn? Who were the saints that this other horn ware out and when did this happen? Why was this other horn given "a time and times and the dividing of time" and what does this time period represent, especially since the siege of Jerusalem began in 66AD?

If you are a preterist and have answers for me I'd appreciate it very much.

 

[Solo]

Here is an article that is give a Biblical Analysis of the False Doctrine of Preterism

• 
  
  Dr. David R. Reagan
  
  Preterism is a system for the interpretation of the book of Revelation. Its strange name comes from a Latin word meaning past tense. The word is appropriate because this view holds that either all or most of the book of Revelation was fulfilled in the First Century!
  
  The Origin of the Viewpoint
  
  The view was developed in the 17th Century by a Jesuit priest named Luis de Alcazar (1554-1613). His purpose was to defend the Catholic Church against the attacks of the Reformers. He denied the Reformers' charge that the book of Revelation was a prophecy about the apostasy of the Roman Church. Instead, he argued that the book was a prophecy about the Church's struggles during its early years. Chapters 4 through 11 were interpreted as depicting the Church's fight against Judaism, culminating in the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Chapters 12 through 19 were viewed as the Church's struggle against paganism, ending with the fall of Rome in 476. Chapters 20 through 22 were interpreted to be a symbolic description of the glories of papal Rome. Using this clever approach, Alcazar was able to limit the range of Revelation's prophecies to the first 500 years of the Christian Era.
  
  Alcazar was a mild Preterist. A more radical form of Preterism gained popularity in the latter part of the 20th Century and is today the most widely held version of this interpretive approach. It sees nearly all the prophecies of Revelation as fulfilled in the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, except for the resurrection of believers and the Second Coming of Jesus. It assigns the Tribulation to the fall of Israel, the great apostasy to the First Century Church, and the last days to the period between Jesus' ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem. The beast is viewed as a symbol of Nero in particular and the Roman Empire in general. The False Prophet is equated with the leadership of apostate Israel. Needless to say, many of the spokesmen for this viewpoint are anti-Semitic.
  
  There is a more extreme form of Preterism whose advocates consider themselves to be "consistent Preterists." They take the position that all so-called "end time prophecy" was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. -- including the Second Coming and the resurrection of believers! They do not look forward to any future resurrection or any end of history. They believe we are currently living in the eternal state.
  
  The Cornerstone of the Viewpoint
  
  The cornerstone of the Preterist position is a belief that the book of Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This belief flies in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.
  
  The internal evidence of the book regarding the Roman Empire and the external testimony of the Church Fathers both point to a date of authorship around 95 A.D., 25 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
  
  The type of widespread Roman persecution of the Church that is pictured in Revelation did not occur until the reign of Domitian (81 - 96 A.D.). The persecutions of Nero were limited to the area of Rome. One of the Church Fathers, Iranaeus (c. 130 - c. 202), wrote that the book of Revelation was authored by the apostle John "toward the end of Domitian's reign." Irenaeus was discipled by Polycarp (c. 70 - c. 155 A.D.) who, in turn, had been discipled directly by John himself.
  
  References to the Temple
  
  One of the arguments for an earlier date is based on a reference to the Temple in Revelation 11:1-2. John is told to measure the Temple, which in this case seems to be a command to assess the Temple's spiritual condition. This reference to the Temple, it is argued, must mean that the book was written before the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
  
  But this argument ignores the fact that the Scriptures teach there are going to be two future Temples, one during the Tribulation which the Antichrist will desecrate (Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and another during the Millennium which Jesus Christ will consecrate (Ezekiel 40-46).
  
  The Temple mentioned in Revelation 11 must be the Tribulation Temple since the passage says it will be trampled down by the Gentiles for 42 months (the last half of the Tribulation). It also says this will be immediately preceded by the testimony of the two witnesses for 1,260 days (the first half of the Tribulation).
  
  An Eclectic Observation
  
  I can agree with the Preterists when they insist that the book of Revelation contained a message of encouragement to First Century Christians, assuring them that the Church would ultimately triumph over the Roman Empire. I can also relate to the Reformation Historicists when they argue that the prophecies of Revelation relate to the corruption of the Roman Church and its persecution of true believers.
  
  In other words, I believe the book of Revelation has always had a continuing relevance as a source of encouragement to suffering Christians throughout the history of the Church. It has always served as a reminder that the Church will ultimately triumph over all its oppressors.
  
  That's why I can even agree with the liberal, Idealist viewpoint when it argues that the ultimate message of the book is that good will triumph over evil. How can anyone argue with that conclusion when the book clearly teaches that Satan will be crushed and Jesus will emerge totally triumphant?
  
  But I also believe in the Futurist view that most of the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled and is to be fulfilled in its plain sense meaning. In other words, I believe there's going to be a real Antichrist and not just a symbolic Antichrist. Yes, there have been symbolic antichrists in the past, but there is going to be a fulfillment in a literal Antichrist in the future. I also believe the Tribulation, Millennium and Eternal State are all yet future.
  
  Relating the Views to Each Other
  
  As I look at these four systems of interpretation (Historicist, Preterist, Idealist, and Futurist) and consider their relationship to each other, I am reminded of how an overhead projector works. You can put a transparency on the projector that shows the land of Israel in the time of Joshua. Then you can lay on top of that transparency another one that shows the boundaries of the land at the time of Jesus. Another overlay could show the land's boundaries during the time of the Crusaders. A final overlay could outline the boundaries as they exist today. Each transparency contains an element of truth about the land. The light shines through all the transparencies to give you the full picture, showing you how the boundaries have changed over the years.
  
  I think that's the way these schools of interpretation relate to each other. Each one of the four contains an element of truth. The problem comes when you accept only one and reject all the others. We must never forget that the book of Revelation contained a very relevant message to First Century Christians. It assured them of their ultimate victory over the Roman Empire. We must also remember that the book has been given relevant application to the struggles of the Church throughout history.
  
  Looking to the Future
  
  But we must also keep in mind that the Futurist view is correct when it says that the ultimate fulfillment of the book's prophecies is yet future.
  
  There really is going to be a seven year period of Tribulation. A Jewish temple is going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem. A real person empowered by Satan will march into that temple, blaspheme God, and declare himself to be a god. This Antichrist will become the scourge of the earth. He will attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Just as he appears to be on the verge of victory in accomplishing this satanic goal, the Lord Jesus will break from the heavens with all His holy ones, returning to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem from which He ascended into Heaven. The Lord will crush the Antichrist and inaugurate the greatest kingdom the world has ever known. The earth will be flooded with peace, righteousness and justice -- as the waters cover the sea.

 

[RND]

Thanks Solo.

 

[Solo]

Thanks Solo.

You are most welcome! The Word of God will never be changed by the liars and the father of lies. It stands as Truth for all to see in order to be believed or to be rejected. God help those who reject it!

 

[researcher]

when did the ten kingdoms arise out of Rome?

I believe it says ten kings, not kingdoms.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise:

 

[RND]

when did the ten kingdoms arise out of Rome?

I believe it says ten kings, not kingdoms.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise:

I believe you are splitting hairs. Not to mention it doesn't appear you've considered much of what a king does. He rules. Usually he rules "kingdoms."

 

[researcher]

when did the ten kingdoms arise out of Rome?

I believe it says ten kings, not kingdoms.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise:

I believe you are splitting hairs. Not to mention it doesn't appear you've considered much of what a king does. He rules. Usually he rules "kingdoms."

Since the ten horns all exist at the same time together on the head of the beast, the ten kings that arise out of the fourth kingdom are to be regarded as contemporary. In this manner the division or dismemberment of this kingdom into ten principalities or kingdoms is symbolized. For the ten contemporaneous kings imply the existence at the same time of ten kingdoms.

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

Well, there were plenty of kingdoms under Rome's rule. And they had three 1st century wars. Parthian, Britain, and Israel. Lol. :nod

 

[toddm]

Just to clarify AGAIN...that article refers to FULL or HYPER preterism. Most preterists are actually PARTIAL preterists, like myself, that believes MUCH of Scripture was fulfilled w/ 70 AD, but not ALL. The Second Coming, Final Judgment, New heaven & earth, etc. are still future events.

Furthermore, that article is incredibly bias and understand very little about partial preterism.

 

[RND]

Since the ten horns all exist at the same time together on the head of the beast, the ten kings that arise out of the fourth kingdom are to be regarded as contemporary.

In this manner the division or dismemberment of this kingdom into ten principalities or kingdoms is symbolized. For the ten contemporaneous kings imply the existence at the same time of ten kingdoms.

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament[/quote] Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The ten horns (which represent ten kingdoms) come "out" of out of the first beast (Rome) and after that, another horn shall arise. That Other horn" subdues 3 kings (kingdoms)

Well, there were plenty of kingdoms under Rome's rule. And they had three 1st century wars. Parthian, Britain, and Israel. Lol. :nod

It would be interesting to know who you might think these ten kingdoms are.

 

[researcher]

It would be interesting to know who you might think these ten kingdoms are.

Lol. I wouldn't know.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with (Rome) the beast.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto (Rome)the beast.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon (Rome) the beast, these shall hate (Jerusalem) the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Rome destroyed the whore (Jerusalem) in 70AD. So I guess Rome had some help. Probably the auxiliary legions from across the empire.

 

[toddm]

A great and easy to read book is Gary DeMar's "Last Days Madness". It makes sense of so many "end times" passages in Scripture.

 

[RND]

It would be interesting to know who you might think these ten kingdoms are.

Lol. I wouldn't know.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with (Rome) the beast.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto (Rome)the beast.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon (Rome) the beast, these shall hate (Jerusalem) the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Rome destroyed the whore (Jerusalem) in 70AD. So I guess Rome had some help. Probably the auxiliary legions from across the empire.

Wow. How does Revelation 17:15 fit in your view of eschatology? The woman, you say it's Jerusalem, sits upon many "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." How does this fit Jerusalem? Does Jerusalem sit (as in being in control, as a king sits) over "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" and if so, how?

 

[RND]

It would be interesting to know who you might think these ten kingdoms are.

Lol. I wouldn't know.

Then what do you base any of your eschatological views on? Guesswork? Parroting what others tell you? The magic eight-ball?

 

[veteran]

The image statue of Dan.2 hints at a 5th beast system...

1-head of gold=Babylon
2-breast and arms of silver=Medo-Persia
3-belly and thighs of brass=Grecia
4-legs of iron=Rome
5-feet of part iron and part clay= ???

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

That "stone" that was "cut out without hands" that smote the beast image upon its feet would be Christ. To me that shows a successive working of the beast kingdom idea upon the earth, in stages, the very last one symbolizing the feet and ten toes of part iron and part clay, a 5th one. I believe it's the one of Rev.13:1, and coming to pass in our day.


Dan 2:40-45
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Is there a division at this point? The above verse seems to be speaking only of the image part of legs of iron (pagan Rome).

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

Is there a division betwen "the fourth kingdom" and the "feet and toes"? I believe there is in light of the above verses about the whole image tumbling down when it's smitten on the feet, and then how the vision mentions God's everlasting Kingdom being established forever after its fall. That represents the end of the beast kingdom working on earth, forever.

Because the whole image falls with its feet breaking to pieces, that symbolizes how the last beast kingdom will include and have power over the residue of all the previous beast kingdoms (of gold, of silver, of brass, and of iron). That seems to represent a completeness of control with the last beast that the previous beast kingdoms didn't achieve. It shows all the previous beast kingdoms manifested within the last one of feet and toes, and under its power.

What this does is push the 4th beast structure of ten kings also into the 5th beast system, the difference being another king rising from the midst of them to be the head of it. The ten kings seem to also represent the ten toes of the last beast kingdom.

Like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Cor.10, the Old Testament events serve as "ensamples" for those upon whom the ends of the world are come. What hath been shall be again, no new thing under the sun per Eccl.1.

The Lord even went further with this principle of ensamples, because He used the historical king of Assyria as a 'type' for the devil in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 31. Antiochus Epiphanes served as a type for the little horn role and "abomination of desolation" event in 170 B.C. Jerusalem. The Roman general Titus served as a type for antichrist in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the same kind of working the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) did in Jeremiah's days. The prince and king of Tyrus (rock) served as types for the devil also per Ezekiel 28. Do you think our Heavenly Father is trying to show us a pattern? I think so, very much so.

How does that relate to our Lord's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13? If The Lord is showing us the previous beast kingdoms continue existence WITHIN the last beast kingdom, the one that will exist on earth when Christ comes to destroy the whole and set up God's everlasting Kingdom, then it means a progressive working on the earth until the last beast kingdom covers the entire earth, all nations, peoples, multitudes, and tongues (like Rev.17:15).

This is why Matt.24 and Mark 13 include prophetic events that did not come to pass in 70 A.D. Jerusalem. This is why Christ gave John His Book of Revelation in the time of Domitian (circa 96 A.D.), to point to the final beast kingdom that is to come, the one of the feet and toes of part iron and part clay. Even the role of king Cyrus the Mede destroying the Babylon kingdom of old to release its power over Judah serves as a pattern for Christ coming to defeat the final Babylon system upon the earth in order to set up God's everlasting Kingdom. Even that 70 years of Judah's captivity to Babylon serves as a pattern for the 7 years tribulation of the last beast kingdom on earth.

So even the Reformers should not have forgotten the role of antichrist which Antiochus served in 170 B.C. Jerusalem, nor the role Titus served in the Biblical pattern of ensamples. Or maybe some of the Reformers did note those types, and saw the pope in their day as only the next pattern, but not the final one. It would be logical for them to look for Christ's coming in their day right after the antichrist working they thought had come.

Regardless, should we be looking for a revived Roman empire under a pope, or should we be looking for that kingdom of the feet and ten toes of part clay and part iron that will include the residue of all the previous beast kingdoms before it, and with a specific king over it? I think we are to be looking for the latter, and not a pope.

 

[researcher]

It would be interesting to know who you might think these ten kingdoms are.

Lol. I wouldn't know.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with (Rome) the beast.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto (Rome)the beast.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon (Rome) the beast, these shall hate (Jerusalem) the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Rome destroyed the whore (Jerusalem) in 70AD. So I guess Rome had some help. Probably the auxiliary legions from across the empire.

Wow. How does Revelation 17:15 fit in your view of eschatology? The woman, you say it's Jerusalem, sits upon many "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." How does this fit Jerusalem? Does Jerusalem sit (as in being in control, as a king sits) over "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" and if so, how?

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Does this verse fit anyone else?

 

[Vic C.]

Um Vet, shouldn't we looking for the return of the Lord?

John 10 talks about the Shepherd and His sheep. He knows us and we will know Him. :amen

 

[RND]

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Does this verse fit anyone else?

Yes. Who was responsible for shedding more blood and killing more people than Rome? Couldn't have been Israel they were occupied constantly and finally scattered completely.

 

[toddm]

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Does this verse fit anyone else?

Sounds like it lines right up w/ the end of Matthew 23 to me.

 

[researcher]

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Does this verse fit anyone else?

Yes. Who was responsible for shedding more blood and killing more people than Rome? Couldn't have been Israel they were occupied constantly and finally scattered completely.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,


Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

1Th 2:14... even as they have of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us (The saints); and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

I guess we better conjure up some up prophets for Rome. :o :o :yes

 

[toddm]

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Does this verse fit anyone else?

Yes. Who was responsible for shedding more blood and killing more people than Rome? Couldn't have been Israel they were occupied constantly and finally scattered completely.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,


Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

1Th 2:14... even as they have of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us (The saints); and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

I guess we better conjure up some up prophets for Rome. :o :o :yes

Silly, researcher...using Scripture to interpret Scripture instead of looking at the local newspaper to interpret it...sheesh.