Preterism and the book of Daniel

[veteran]

Um Vet, shouldn't we looking for the return of the Lord?

John 10 talks about the Shepherd and His sheep. He knows us and we will know Him. :amen

You bet!

So how does understanding the events and timing of the beast kingdoms per Scripture relate to watching for our Lord Jesus' coming?

The Lord didn't give those examples in Daniel for nothing. And because the subject is repeated by our Lord in Scripture like Rev.12:3-4 and Rev.13:1-2 shows even more how they relate to the timing of His return. Understanding it is heeding His command for us to be on watch.

 

[researcher]

Silly, researcher...using Scripture to interpret Scripture instead of looking at the local newspaper to interpret it...sheesh.

Go figure! Lol. ;) :D

 

[Sinthesis]

Regarding the OP:

If Jesus returned in 70AD, then when did the ten (only 1 kingdom with 10 kings per Dan 7:24) kingdoms arise out of Rome?

Roman Kingdom-1, Roman Republic-2, Roman Emperors Augustus-3, Tiberius-4, Caligula-5, Claudius-6, Nero-7, Galba-8, Otho-9, Vitellius-10

Who is the other horn that comes out of the midst of the ten kings that subdues these three kings?

Roman Emperor Vespasian

When did this happen?

The year 69AD was the "Year of the Four Emperors".

Who are these three kings?

They were Roman Emperors Galba, Otho, and Vitellius.

Why did Rome continue as a nation and continue to subdue the earth long after 70AD?

Pagan Rome lingered on to fulfill prophesy by allowing Christianity to prevail against it.

What are the words that this horn spoke against the Most High that came from the midst of the ten horns?

Blaspheming the God of Israel perhaps?

What laws and times were (only tried to change per Dan 7:25) changed by this other horn?

Only God can change the laws and times. This is an allusion to the Roman Emperor trying to assume God's authority through the Imperial Cult.

Who were the saints that this other horn ware out and when did this happen?

Surely some faithful Jews and early Christians were unfortunately caught up in the destruction of Apostate Israel circa 70AD, but from Daniel's point of view, and his reaction to this particular vision, it probably simply means Daniel's people, such as the descendents of the remnant which would return to Jerusalem from exile after the decree of Cyrus.

Why was this other horn given "a time and times and the dividing of time"?

Or 'a time, times, and half a time', but the 'dividing of time' is relevant.

What does this time period represent, since the siege of Jerusalem began in 66AD?

The war started in 66AD and initially the Jews were successful, but the final siege of Jerusalem didn't start until 70AD. Regardless, it only took three and a half years after Vespasian landed in Judea until Jerusalem was completely destroyed by his son Titus.

 

[veteran]

Big problem with that is the Rev.17:12 context is about the ten kings (ten horns) reigning all at the same time!

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(KJV)

 

[researcher]

Big problem with that is the Rev.17:12 context is about the ten kings (ten horns) reigning all at the same time!

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(KJV)

"but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"

Is that one hour according to man's time, or God's?

One hour would be a pretty short time to be in power if it's man's time.

One hour on God's time with the 1000 years = 1 day thing would be 41 years, lol.

In other words, about a generation, lol

 

[veteran]

What kind of time expression is the below statement in bold? Is that man's time, or God's timeframe?

Rev 9:14-15
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
(KJV)

 

[researcher]

What kind of time expression is the below statement in bold? Is that man's time, or God's timeframe?

Rev 9:14-15
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
(KJV)

"and loosed were the four messengers, who have been made ready for the hour, and day, and month, and year, that they may kill the third of men;" (Young's Literal)

I would say that is just a statement that they were prepared to act at the appointed time, not describing an actual space of time that they operate in.

Example: We began preparing for the time we would depart, which was November 11th at 9pm.

 

[Sinthesis]

Big problem with that is the Rev.17:12 context is about the ten kings (ten horns) reigning all at the same time!

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(KJV)

The OP asked about Dan 7, not Rev 17:12. However, the visions of Dan 7 and Rev 17 do not describe the fourth beast in the exact same way, just as the fourth beast is not described exactly the same way in Dan 7 and Dan 2. The context of Rev 17 is only one beast with a succession of kings over time. The ten 'horn' kings of Rev 17:12 are the symbolic full number of all the future emperors of Pagan Rome, beginning with Vespasian (the 11th horn of Dan 7, of which the number 11 is the 1st of a new set, i.e. diverse from the others) and lasting until Constantine.

 

[veteran]

That's also the kind of timing of Rev.17:12 when the ten kings receive power "one hour" with the beast.

God knows what timing that is, we don't, not until it happens. The ten horns manifest all at one time with the beast, in a single kingdom, like RND's mentioned in the parenthesis of his question.

The Rev.17 part about the seven kings of the seven heads would fit the Roman emperors though, loosely. But there's another problem with that:

Rev 17:10-13
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
(KJV)

Note the "beast" mentioned in Rev.17:11 is about a certain king, brought forward from the subject of verse 10. If that's talking about a king, then is it proper to change that meaning in the 12th verse about the "beast" to mean a kingdom, like the beast of Rev.13:1?

There's two different beasts taught in Rev.13. The first is a system (Rev.13:1), but the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward exercises all the power of the first beast, and he is an entity that's to work great wonders, and cause those on earth to worship the first beast. That's the beast king of Rev.17:12 which the ten kings receive power with.

 

[veteran]

The OP asked about Dan 7, not Rev 17:12. However, the visions of Dan 7 and Rev 17 do not describe the fourth beast in the exact same way, just as the fourth beast is not described exactly the same way in Dan 7 and Dan 2. The context of Rev 17 is only one beast with a succession of kings over time. The ten 'horn' kings of Rev 17:12 are the symbolic full number of all the future emperors of Pagan Rome, beginning with Vespasian (the 11th horn of Dan 7, of which the number 11 is the 1st of a new set, i.e. diverse from the others) and lasting until Constantine.

Our Lord referred to the previous beast kingdoms of Dan.7 in Rev.13:2, and He explains many of the Rev.13 symbols in Rev.17. So Rev.17 is very relative to the ten horns and beast kingsoms of Daniel.

And the context of Rev.17 is about both, the beast as a kingdom, and the beast as a particular king, just as Rev.13 declares two different beasts. And as Rev.17:12 firmly declares, the ten horns as ten kings only receive power together with one of the two beasts of Rev.13. Since the subject of Rev.17:10-11 is about eight kings, and one of them is called a "beast" that was, and is not, and even he is the eighth and of the seven kings, that particular beast king idea is brought forward to verse 12, meaning the ten kings receive power with a beast king. Total = 11.

For this to fit pagan Rome, it would have to mean ten kings all receiving power at the same time with another king, a beast king they give their power and strength to.

Dan 7:7-8
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
(KJV)

Count the total number of horns in that Daniel 7 example. You'll find it's a total of 11 if the "little horn" is counted that comes up among the ten. That's the parallel in Rev.17:10-13 also. No disagreement with Daniel.

 

[Sinthesis]

That's also the kind of timing of Rev.17:12 when the ten kings receive power "one hour" with the beast.

God knows what timing that is, we don't, not until it happens. The ten horns manifest all at one time with the beast, in a single kingdom, like RND's mentioned in the parenthesis of his question.

The Rev.17 part about the seven kings of the seven heads would fit the Roman emperors though, loosely. But there's another problem with that:

Rev 17:10-13
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
(KJV)

Note the "beast" mentioned in Rev.17:11 is about a certain king, brought forward from the subject of verse 10. If that's talking about a king, then is it proper to change that meaning in the 12th verse about the "beast" to mean a kingdom, like the beast of Rev.13:1?

There's two different beasts taught in Rev.13. The first is a system (Rev.13:1), but the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward exercises all the power of the first beast, and he is an entity that's to work great wonders, and cause those on earth to worship the first beast. That's the beast king of Rev.17:12 which the ten kings receive power with.

Rev 17:10 clearly demonstrates the successive nature of the various kings of the fourth beast. The 'eighth' of Rev 17:11 represents the Imperial Cult of Pagan Rome itself, successively personified by the other seven contemporary emperors, and extended into the relative future of the author by the symbolic 'ten' kings who would continue to persecute God's people until Christianity prevailed.

The phrase 'was, and is not' is a parody of God's eternal (I Am) nature, establishing the religion of Pagan Rome as false.

The beast of Rev 13:1 is Pagan Rome.

The beast of Rev 13:11 is the illegitimate Roman backed kingdom of apostate Israel circa the AD60's. It is described in Dan 2 as the 'part of clay'.

Daniel and John don't disagree, they only describe the fourth beast from different viewpoints.

 

[researcher]

That's also the kind of timing of Rev.17:12 when the ten kings receive power "one hour" with the beast.

God knows what timing that is, we don't, not until it happens. The ten horns manifest all at one time with the beast, in a single kingdom, like RND's mentioned in the parenthesis of his question.

One hour. If it's according to man's time, that's about enough time to be sworn in. Lol. I doubt if it's a literal "hour" as in 60 minutes.

 

[veteran]

That's also the kind of timing of Rev.17:12 when the ten kings receive power "one hour" with the beast.

God knows what timing that is, we don't, not until it happens. The ten horns manifest all at one time with the beast, in a single kingdom, like RND's mentioned in the parenthesis of his question.

One hour. If it's according to man's time, that's about enough time to be sworn in. Lol. I doubt if it's a literal "hour" as in 60 minutes.

Just an expression, kinda like how our Lord used it about not knowing the day "or hour" of His coming. It's like you said, it points to a set time for an event to occur, and not about telling time.

 

[Elijah674]

That's also the kind of timing of Rev.17:12 when the ten kings receive power "one hour" with the beast.

God knows what timing that is, we don't, not until it happens. The ten horns manifest all at one time with the beast, in a single kingdom, like RND's mentioned in the parenthesis of his question.

The Rev.17 part about the seven kings of the seven heads would fit the Roman emperors though, loosely. But there's another problem with that:

Rev 17:10-13
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
(KJV)

Note the "beast" mentioned in Rev.17:11 is about a certain king, brought forward from the subject of verse 10. If that's talking about a king, then is it proper to change that meaning in the 12th verse about the "beast" to mean a kingdom, like the beast of Rev.13:1?

There's two different beasts taught in Rev.13. The first is a system (Rev.13:1), but the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward exercises all the power of the first beast, and he is an entity that's to work great wonders, and cause those on earth to worship the first beast. That's the beast king of Rev.17:12 which the ten kings receive power with.

Rev 17:10 clearly demonstrates the successive nature of the various kings of the fourth beast. The 'eighth' of Rev 17:11 represents the Imperial Cult of Pagan Rome itself, successively personified by the other seven contemporary emperors, and extended into the relative future of the author by the symbolic 'ten' kings who would continue to persecute God's people until Christianity prevailed.

The phrase 'was, and is not' is a parody of God's eternal (I Am) nature, establishing the religion of Pagan Rome as false.

The beast of Rev 13:1 is Pagan Rome.

The beast of Rev 13:11 is the illegitimate Roman backed kingdom of apostate Israel circa the AD60's. It is described in Dan 2 as the 'part of clay'.

Daniel and John don't disagree, they only describe the fourth beast from different viewpoints.

It seems that John even starts from his time in a backwards order of reversal as well?

Good post [as 'i' see it.] --Elijah

 

[veteran]

Rev 17:10 clearly demonstrates the successive nature of the various kings of the fourth beast. The 'eighth' of Rev 17:11 represents the Imperial Cult of Pagan Rome itself, successively personified by the other seven contemporary emperors, and extended into the relative future of the author by the symbolic 'ten' kings who would continue to persecute God's people until Christianity prevailed.

What you're saying is not correct.

Rev.17:10 declares the reign of ten kings contemporary with each other, and with the beast of verse 12, which that beast is shown to be a king also, per verse 11.

The phrase 'was, and is not' is a parody of God's eternal (I Am) nature, establishing the religion of Pagan Rome as false.

Rev 17:11
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
(KJV)

That phrase the "beast that was, and is not" is a timetable expression. It especially shows that particular beast (a king) there was not existing at the time John was given Revelation.

From the previous verse, five were fallen (past), one existed in John's day, and the seventh was not yet come. Then we are told that beast king "is of the seven", meaning what? It means he was over the previous five fallen kings, and was over the sixth in John's day, and would also be over the seventh king.

But the Message doesn't stop there with the seventh king. We are told that beast king "even he IS the eighth", meaning the eighth king. Is that starting to paint a picture of longevity about that beast king being OF all seven? It should. Even the last phrase "and goeth into perdition" is a clue to that beast king's identity. All that up to that point in Rev.17 is about the seven heads which are seven mountains, related to seven kings.

But Rev.17:12-13 is about ten kings that don't receive power until that beast king comes, the "little horn" coming up among all ten, and they give their power and strength to that beast king or little horn.

The beast of Rev 13:1 is Pagan Rome.

The Rev.13:1 beast is a one-world system being setup over all the earth now, to include all nations and peoples. That's why our Lord revealed the "waters", meaning the "sea" that Rev.13:1 beast comes up from, represents "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev.17:15). Pointing to ancient pagan Rome with that is to be way behind in our Lord's prophetic timeline of events.

The beast of Rev 13:11 is the illegitimate Roman backed kingdom of apostate Israel circa the AD60's. It is described in Dan 2 as the 'part of clay'.

What a wild idea you say. Actually, the Daniel 2 image points to pagan Rome with the legs of iron, i.e. the 4th beast kingdom. The ten toes of part iron and part clay, is a separate part of the statue image, and is specifically where our Lord strikes it to cause the whole of it to come tumbling down, and His Kingdom that is still in abeyance today is at that time established on earth forever.

Apostate Israel circa A.D. 60's? If you speak of orthodox Jews, they are STILL apostate away from Christ Jesus, because ORTHODOX JUDAISM still refuses Jesus of Nazareth as The Savior. Just as they were apostate DURING Christ's Ministry before A.D.60's. So was that the "falling away" (apostasy) Apostle Paul was speaking about in 2 Thess.2? Absolutely not. Why? Because no one in A.D.60's or 70's fit the conditions of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned, which is what Paul was talking about in 2 Thess.2:3-4.

The conditons of the "abomination of desolation" both the Book of Daniel and our Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 24 fit only one point in history, and that was Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. But of course our Lord Jesus prophesied of the "abomination of desolation" event around 200 years AFTER Antiochus had done his thing in Jerusalem. That of course means our Lord was pointing to a future event for it to be fulfilled. And the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill the conditions of the prophecy. They only fit a type, or ensample, showing its real fulfillment is still not yet.

Daniel and John don't disagree, they only describe the fourth beast from different viewpoints.

Glad you admit that. And their seemingly different viewpoints don't really differ either. Otherwise there'd be no way to establish that both the Book of Daniel and Revelation give the same account of ten kings contempary with each other when the "little horn" beast arises from among those ten.