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Prevent Rapes Support Concealed Carry

GojuBrian said:
I'm a concealed handgun holder. I live in a gun friendly state and excercise my right to keep and bear arms for many reasons. One reason is goblins, there are lots of goblins out there who whole purpose for existence is to do evil.
In all honesty, I mainly got my CHL for dogs.
We had a Pitbull right in front of our Apt that I thought I might have to take down.
Ive always had a gun for home defense, just in case, and obviously its for deterrence rather than taking life, if at all possible.
I think we can all agree that Drew does not agree with us on this issue and I support his right to disagree, however, it is really of no consequence to us what Drew believes.
Nope, never was :)
He kept complaining about things like evidence, so I figured Id create a thread or two and overrun them with facts and evidence.
Which apparently he cant accept....something I knew from the start, but regardless, the READER can see the details for themselves whether Drew believes it or not.
Drew,

I believe in my heart you believe what you are standing against is right. Therefore, you may continue to reside in your anti-gun country and live happily ever after no matter what we say, no matter what data we pull, and no matter what facts we present.
Realize that I and others truly believe in our heart that we are absolutely right! I will continue to believe and live the way I do, armed, trained, and prepared to protect myself and my family. :salute
Amen. :)

I moved away from NY State, in part, because of their gun laws and the direction they seem to be headed in.
In the end it doesnt matter what Drew believes....*I* live in a free country where *I* have the RIGHT to own a gun. *I* am a citizen, not a subject.
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GojuBrian said:
I will continue to believe and live the way I do, armed, trained, and prepared to protect myself and my family. :salute
This is where we differ. I continually challenge my present beliefs, especially in light of the fact that I, like you, have been immersed in a secular world whose values are often deeply at odds with the path of the gospel. Therefore, for me anyway, the project of "disengaging" from the world's way of thinking is a life long project.

And I think the gun issue is a prime example. The world deeply endorses then notion of the right to fight evil with what is essentially in out instrumentality. I suggest that the gospel challenges this.

But, of course, we each must travel our own path.
 
GUNS FOR DETERRING CRIME AND VIOLENCE
rev 8/4/2k (links 12/29/2k)
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Gun control advocates will not acknowledge that crime and violence are prevented and deterred by guns being possessed by law-abiding people. Or, if they do, they minimize the effect by stupid statements such as, "the deterrent effect is unknown" (or "over stated") and "only a very small number of people are killed annually in self protection by private citizens" (as though killing were the only way to protect).

The truth is that guns are used much more by private citizens for protecting the innocent than guns are used in crime. This is true even for cases of self defense.

It is also true that law-abiding citizens owning guns reduces crime and violence, and allowing such citizens to carry guns out and about (not just at home) also reduces crime and violence. Gun control advocates screem out against these ideas without even reading the proof, but it is absolutely proven thanks to the great work of John Lott, Jr. and David Mustard.

Their work, attributed mostly to Lott, caused a bit of a stir when published. Although much of the media coverage has been gun control advocates getting their usual cooperation from the media, there have been a few instances in which Lott has been given an opportunity to speak. So people with any sense could see that he had facts and his detractors had nothing but emotionalized generalities and lies.

Lott and Mustard's work has generally been characterized incorrectly by people on both sides of the issues as being a study of "concealed carry" laws. The fact is that their work has been a long series of studies or analyses, and they have not been just about concealed carry laws.

Most of the analyses have been determinations of the extent to which rates of suicide, accidental death, and several different kinds or crime may be predicted by several things that have been suggested as having a causal effect. One of the factors they considered as possibly having an impact on crime, etc. was the extent to which people were allowed to carry concealed weapons—not just on the basis of the state law, but also the actual practice. They also considered the impacts of things such as arrest rates, encarceration rates and sentence enhancement laws.

The statistical methods they used in some of the analyses are actually able to determine almost certainly that one thing is a cause of the other, which most types of statistical analyses cannot do, because the one thing always preceeds the other.

Lott and Mustard used in most of the analyses all the data collected by the FBI from law enforcement all across the country for the last 16 years for which the data were available (through 1992). They did not select out data from all that which was available to make the results show what they wanted it to show as gun controllers do in their "research." They did most of the analyses using county-level data, and repeated them using state-level data in order to test the effect of using county-level data rather than state-level data. They found generally that effects are more reliably detectable using county-level data since state-level data tends to average away effects because a state is not a homogenous entity.

A lesser number of the analyses were done using data Lott and Mustard were able to find other than the FBI data. One of the characteristics of their work is that they tried to find a valid way of checking on the effects of practically anything anybody has ever suggested as possibly having an effect on some type of crime. Another characteristic is that, to do this, they did some work to find and use data which could reasonably be used as a measure of the things suggested as having a bearing. The main limitation of their works has been the fact that government agencies have not collected usable data regarding some of the things people have thought might be important. Lott and Mustard generally did the best they could with what they could get, and they went to great effort to find and get what they could find.

Another characteristic of their analyses is that most of them have covered all areas of the country over the entire period for which data were available and have simultaneously accounted for all factors (including all federal and state laws) that have been billed as importantly related to crime. So, for example, they took into account when the Brady Law went into effect, when each county started issuing concealed carry permits on a nondiscretionary basis, etc. They considered time in two different ways so that they could determine whether or not time-since-effective-date was significant (as opposed to an effect being immediate and remaining constant forever).

After completing a great number of analyses and identifying their conclusions, Lott and Mustard published a paper in a criminology journal. Gun controllers immediately got great press coverage for their criticisms even though they had often not even read the paper. Lott answered the criticisms and actually re-ran the analyses in ways to accommodate and check them. He then used two additional years of FBI data to check the earlier analyses, then included it all (with the criticisms and answers) in his book "MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws" (U. of Chicago Press).

One thing to keep in mind about the work of Lott and Mustard is that the data they used and the number of different factors considered in their analyses is orders of magnitude greater (probably at least hundreds of times greater) than for any study ever about crimes, violence, or guns. Besides this, they have run many more analyses.

The original paper is available in .pdf format for free. The book is cheap ($23 suggested). Every U.S. citizen should read it. A politician should not be allowed to vote on a crime bill or gun bill without being able to pass an open-book test on it. However, the paper and book are a bit technical. One thing to keep in mind in reading either of them is that Lott frequently refers to a state having a concealed carry law when he really means "a nondiscretionary (shall issue)" concealed carry law. It obviously makes writing complicated to have to use the more complete term over and over in a discussion about it.

When reading the paper or Lott's book, it will be helpful if you go in with a little understanding about the statistical analyses he and Mustard did and are still doing. The analyses are based on the idea that something (rate of aggravated assault or murder, for example) is a result of a number of things and could therefore be predicted approximately by totalling up a number of factors involving those things.

For example, one could say that the rate of murder in a county equals some constant value, plus some constant times the poverty rate in the county, plus a constant times the portion of the public (in the county) that have concealed carry permits, plus a constant times the portion of the public that are law enforcement officers, etc., etc. In their actual analyses, there were many of these different variables. The statistical analyses they use determine the values (and signs) of all those different constants and, hence, the extent to which a crime rate, gun accident rate, etc. are affected by the various variables (if at all), and the direction of any effect (up or down).

One thing you will find in reading the paper or book is some occasional references to using "dummy" variables. These are not some kind of trickery. As already mentioned, data that would have been good to have for the analyses were often not available. For instance, the numbers of people having concealed carry permits in the many counties (or even in the states) have simply not been recorded by authorities. So, Lott and Mustard would use a variable for each county and each year, to which they assigned a value of zero for every year before a nondiscretionary concealed carry law went into effect, and a value of one for each year for as long as the law was in effect. Similarly, they would assign a value that was zero before, then a value equal to the months after the law went into effect (so they could determine if the impact of concealed carry kept increasing after going into effect).

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/deternce.html
 
GojuBrian said:
however, it is really of no consequence to us what Drew believes.
Well, I suggest that if you expect people to listen to you and care what you think, you need to reciprocate.

Let me put it this way. Presumably you post on this subject becuuse you believe in your position and wish to advocate for it. Well, if you are not going to engage with contrary positions, why would you expect others to take your own arguments seriously?

Learning is a two-way street.
 
follower of Christ said:
He kept complaining about things like evidence, so I figured Id create a thread or two and overrun them with facts and evidence.
Which apparently he cant accept....
If by this you mean, I cannot accept manifestly bad arguments, then to that I plead "guilty". The reader is invited to judge for themselves about whether the issue is that I "complain about evidence" or whether I expose weakness and errors in material that is being passed off as evidence.
 
follower of Christ said:
GodspromisesRyes said:
I would like to know, how many christians here, who believe in having and using guns against others, for any reason including protection- would also be willing to fight against authorities if the nwo began to take control here and there was martial law or finding us christians and killing or locking us up?
The last resort is civil war, of course.
But Id be more than willing to fight for what the Constitution stands for...
I seriously doubt its going to come to that in our lifetimes.

.
this is exactly why i asked this question here because this is what all this gun talk does. I asked a question about a very real, coming situation in which the nwo will persecute the church find us christians and killing or locking us up- the answer i recieve is that yes they are still willing to fight.

So when are we gonna listen to the Lord? This is an example of how defending yourself now, will also lead you to defend yourself and fight for others when called to lay your life down directly for the Lord as we are called to- this is a serious matter because we are told that he who seeks to save his life will lose it.

On a side note i am not sure what any of this topic has to do with the LORD. Is there a study done of how calling on Jesus saves a woman from rape. All these worldly studies and cases and incidents, should be 0 to us as christians who have the word of God to walk by in faith being led of the Holy Spirit.
 
The False Promise of Gun Control
Daniel D. Polsby

From the March 1994 issue of The Atlantic Monthly.

Gun-control laws may save some lives, but they can never stem the flow of guns, and they divert attention from the roots of our crime problem.

During the 1960s and 1970s the robbery rate in the United States increased sixfold, and the murder rate doubled; the rate of handgun ownership nearly doubled in that period as well. handguns and criminal violence grew together apace, and national opinion leaders did not fail to remark on that coincidence.

It has become a bipartisan article of faith that more handguns cause more violence. Such was the unequivocal conclusion of the national Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence in 1969, and such is now the editorial opinion of virtually every influential newspaper and magazine, from The Washington Post to The Economist to the Chicago Tribune. Members of the House and Senate who have not dared to confront the gun lobby concede the connection privately. Even if the National Rifle Association can produce blizzards of angry calls and letters to the Capitol virtually overnight, House members one by one have been going public, often after some new firearms atrocity at a fast-food restaurant or the like. And last November they passed the Brady bill.

Alas, however well accepted, the conventional wisdom about guns and violence is mistaken. Guns don't increase national rates of crime and violence -- but the continued proliferation of gun-control laws almost certainly does. Current rates of crime and violence are a bit below the peaks of the late 1970s, but because of a slight oncoming bulge in the at-risk population of males aged fifteen to thirty-four, the crime rate will soon worsen. The rising generation of criminals will have no more difficulty than their elders did in obtaining the tools of their trade. Growing violence will lead to calls for laws still more severe. Each fresh round of legislation will be followed by renewed frustration.

Gun-control laws don't work. What is worse, they act perversely. While legitimate users of firearms encounter intense regulation, scrutiny, and bureaucratic control, illicit markets easily adapt to whatever difficulties a free society throws in their way. Also, efforts to curtail the supply of firearms inflict collateral damage on freedom and privacy interests that have long been considered central to American public life. Thanks to the seemingly never-ending war on drugs and long experience attempting to suppress prostitution and pornography, we know a great deal about how illicit markets function and how costly to the public attempts to control them can be. It is essential that we make use of this experience in coming to grips with gun control.

The thousands of gun-control laws in the United States are of two general types. The older kind sought to regulate how, where, and by whom firearms could be carried. More recent laws have sought to make it more costly to buy, sell, or use firearms (or certain classes of firearms, such as assault rifles, Saturday-night specials, and so on) by imposing fees, special taxes, or surtaxes on them. The Brady bill is of both types: it has a background-check provision, and its five-day waiting period amounts to a "time tax" on acquiring handguns. All such laws can be called scarcity-inducing, because they seek to raise the cost of buying firearms, as figured in terms of money, time, nuisance, or stigmatization.

Despite the mounting number of scarcity-inducing laws, no one is very satisfied with them. Hobbyists want to get rid of them, and gun-control proponents don't think they go nearly far enough. Everyone seems to agree that gun-control laws have some effect on the distribution of firearms. But it has not been the dramatic and measurable effect their proponents desired.

Opponents of gun control have traditionally wrapped their arguments in the Second Amendment to the Constitution. Indeed, most modern scholarship affirms that so far as the drafters of the Bill of Rights were concerned, the right to bear arms was to be enjoyed by everyone, not just a militia, and that one of the principal justifications for an armed populace was to secure the tranquility and good order of the community. But most people are not dedicated antiquitarians, and would not be impressed by the argument "I admit that my behavior is very dangerous to public safety, but the Second Amendment says I have a right to do it anyway." That would be a case for repealing the Second Amendment, not respecting it.

Fighting the demand curve

Everyone knows that possessing a handgun makes it easier to intimidate, wound, or kill someone. But the implication of this point for social policy has not been so well understood. It is easy to count the bodies of those who have been killed or wounded with guns, but not easy to count the people who have avoided harm because they had access to weapons. Think about uniformed police officers, who carry handguns in plain view not in order to kill people but simply to daunt potential attackers. And it works. Criminals generally do not single out police officers for opportunistic attack. Though officers can expect to draw their guns from time to time, few even in big-city departments will actually fire a shot (except in target practice) in the course of a year. This observation points to an important truth: people who are armed make comparatively unattractive victims. A criminal might not know if any one civilian is armed, but if it becomes known that a larger number of civilians do carry weapons, criminals will become warier.

Which weapons laws are the right kinds can be decided only after considering two related questions. First, what is the connection between civilian possession of firearms and social violence? Second, how can we expect gun-control laws to alter people's behavior? Most recent scholarship raises serious questions about the "weapons increase violence" hypothesis. The second question is emphasized here, because it is routinely overlooked and often mocked when noticed; yet it is crucial. Rational gun control requires understanding not only the relationship between weapons and violence but also the relationship between laws and people's behavior. Some things are very hard to accomplish with laws. The purpose of a law and its likely effects are not always the same thing. many statutes are notorious for the way in which their unintended effects have swamped their intended ones.

In order to predict who will comply with gun-control laws, we should remember that guns are economic goods that are traded in markets. Consumers' interest in them varies. For religious, moral, aesthetic, or practical reasons, some people would refuse to buy firearms at any price. Other people willingly pay very high prices for them.

Handguns, so often the subject of gun-control laws, are desirable for one purpose -- to allow a person tactically to dominate a hostile transaction with another person. The value of a weapon to a given person is a function of two factors: how much he or she wants to dominate a confrontation if one occurs, and how likely it is that he or she will actually be in a situation calling for a gun.

Dominating a transaction simply means getting what one wants without being hurt. Where people differ is in how likely it is that they will be involved in a situation in which a gun will be valuable. Someone who intends to engage in a transaction involving a gun -- a criminal, for example -- is obviously in the best possible position to predict that likelihood. Criminals should therefore be willing to pay more for a weapon than most other people would. Professors, politicians, and newspaper editors are, as a group, at very low risk of being involved in such transactions, and they thus systematically underrate the value of defensive handguns. (Correlative, perhaps, is their uncritical readiness to accept studies that debunk the utility of firearms for self-defense.) The class of people we wish to deprive of guns, then, is the very class with the most inelastic demand for them -- criminals -- whereas the people most like to comply with gun-control laws don't value guns in the first place.

Do guns drive up crime rates?

Which premise is true -- that guns increase crime or that the fear of crime causes people to obtain guns? Most of the country's major newspapers apparently take this problem to have been solved by an article published by Arthur Kellermann and several associates in the October 7, 1993, New England Journal of Medicine. Kellermann is an emergency-room physician who has published a number of influential papers that he believes discredit the thesis that private ownership of firearms is a useful means of self-protection. (An indication of his wide influence is that within two months the study received almost 100 mentions in publications and broadcast transcripts indexed in the Nexis database.) For this study Kellermann and his associates identified fifteen behavioral and fifteen environmental variables that applied to a 388-member set of homicide victims, found a "matching" control group of 388 non-homicide victims, and then ascertained how the two groups differed in gun ownership. In interviews Kellermann made clear his belief that owning a handgun markedly increases a person's risk of being murdered.

But the study does not prove that point at all. Indeed, as Kellermann explicitly conceded in the text of the article, the causal arrow may very well point in the other direction: the threat of being killed may make people more likely to arm themselves. Many people at risk of being killed, especially people involved in the drug trade or other illegal ventures, might well rationally buy a gun as a precaution, and be willing to pay a price driven up by gun-control laws. Crime, after all, is a dangerous business. Peter Reuter and Mark Kleiman, drug-policy researchers, calculated in 1987 that the average crack dealer's risk of being killed was far greater than his risk of being sent to prison. (Their data cannot, however, support the implication that ownership of a firearm causes or exacerbates the risk of being killed.)

Defending the validity of his work, Kellermann has emphasized that the link between lung cancer and smoking was initially established by studies methodologically no different from his. Gary Kleck, a criminology professor at Florida State University, has pointed out the flaw in this comparison. No one ever thought that lung cancer causes smoking, so when the association between the two was established the direction of the causal arrow was not in doubt. Kleck wrote that it is as though Kellermann, trying to discover how diabetics differ from other people, found that they are much more likely to possess insulin than nondiabetics, and concluded that insulin is a risk factor for diabetes.

The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, and the Chicago Tribune all gave prominent coverage to Kellermann's study as soon as it appeared, but none saw fit to discuss the study's limitations. A few, in order to introduce a hint of balance, mentioned that the NRA, or some member of its staff, disagreed with the study. But readers had no way of knowing that Kellermann himself had registered a disclaimer in his text. "It is possible," he conceded, "that reverse causation accounted for some of the association we observed between gun ownership and homicide." Indeed, the point is stronger than that: "reverse causation" may account for most of the association between gun ownership and homicide. Kellermann's data simply do not allow one to draw any conclusion.

If firearms increased violence and crime, then rates of spousal homicide would have skyrocketed, because the stock of privately owned handguns has increased rapidly since the mid-1960s. But according to an authoritative study of spousal homicide in the American Journal of Public Health, by James Mercy and Linda Saltzman, rates of spousal homicide in the years 1976 to 1985 fell. If firearms increased violence and crime, the crime rate should have increased throughout the 1980s, while the national stock of privately owned handguns increased by more than a million units in every year of the decade. It did not. Nor should the rate of violence and crime in Switzerland, New Zealand, and Israel be as low as they are, since the number of firearms per civilian household is comparable to that in the United States. Conversely, gun-controlled Mexico and South Africa should be islands of peace instead of having murder rates more than twice as high as those here. The determinants of crime and law-abidingness are, of course, complex matters, which are not fully understood and certainly not explicable in terms of a country's laws. But gun-control enthusiasts, who have made capital out of the low murder rate in England, which is largely disarmed, simply ignore the counterexamples that don't fit their theory.

If firearms increased violence and crime, Florida's murder rate should not have been falling since the introduction, seven years ago, of a law that makes it easier for ordinary citizens to get permits to carry concealed handguns. Yet the murder rate has remained the same or fallen every year since the law was enacted, and it is now lower than the national murder rate (which has been rising). As of last November 183,561 permits had been issued, and only seventeen of the permits had been revoked because the holder was involved in a firearms offense. It would be precipitate to claim that the new law has "caused" the murder rate to subside. Yet here is a situation that doesn't fit the hypothesis that weapons increase violence.

If firearms increased violence and crime, programs of induced scarcity would suppress violence and crime. But -- another anomaly -- they don't. Why not? A theorem, which we could call the futility theorem, explains why gun-control laws must either be ineffectual or in the long term actually provoke more violence and crime. Any theorem depends on both observable fact and assumption. An assumption that can be made with confidence is that the higher the number of victims a criminals assumes to be armed, the higher will be the risk -- the price -- of assaulting them. By definition, gun-control laws should make weapons scarcer and thus more expensive. By our prior reasoning about demand among various types of consumers, after the laws are enacted criminals should be better armed, compared with non criminals, than they were before. Of course, plenty of noncriminals will remain armed. But even if many noncriminals will pay as high a price as criminals will to obtain firearms, a larger number will not.



continued....
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/polsby.fpgc.html
 
GodspromisesRyes said:
On a side note i am not sure what any of this topic has to do with the LORD. Is there a study done of how calling on Jesus saves a woman from rape. All these worldly studies and cases and incidents, should be 0 to us as christians who have the word of God to walk by in faith being led of the Holy Spirit.
And did God save Able from being murdered by his own brother, friend ?
The answer is no, He didnt.
God lets the natural laws He set into place run their course in MOST cases.

Im going to probably ignore you at some point because THIS DISCUSSION TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE FAITH BUT ABOUT RAPES BEING PREVENTED by Guns.

If you bring my faith into question at any point,Im going to report you...are we clear G ?

.





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So when are we gonna listen to the Lord? This is an example of how defending yourself now, will also lead you to defend yourself and fight for others when called to lay your life down directly for the Lord as we are called to- this is a serious matter because we are told that he who seeks to save his life will lose it.
Just one more example of scriptural ignorance.
This ISNT talking about saving your physical LIFE, friend...ie 'dying'....if it were both JESUS AND PAUL would stand condemned for evading death as they BOTH did a time or two in scripture.

That passage is about saving your 'life'....your sinful, worldly self...this passage ISNT about physical death...its about GIVING SELF to Christ, poster.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life on account of Me shall find it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give as an exchange for his soul?
(Mat 16:24-26 EMTV)

Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels.
(Luk 9:23-26 EMTV)


And having summoned the crowd together with His disciples, He said to them, "Whoever is willing to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's, will save it. For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give as an equivalent for his soul? For whosoever is ashamed of Me and My words among this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him, whenever He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
(Mar 8:34-38 EMTV)

Learn some context for crying out loud.
THIS is the reason some of you apparently cant get it.
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Christ never taught against owning a sword. If he did Peter would not have had one when Judas betrayed him.
There is no transgression committed owning a gun where owning these weapons is legal. Scripture does not deal with the instruments used in crime but addresses the consequences of the sin regardless of what is in the hand of the one committing the sin.

We all have our liberty to live within the confines of the law concerning gun ownership. Owning a gun where doing so is legal is up to the individual. If one chooses not to own a gun then that's their choice. That does not give anyone the right to condemn those who choose otherwise especially using scripture to pass that judgment directly or by insinuation upon one who has not committed a criminal act. I can't find anything in the bible that says owning a sword is sinful. Again, Scripture does not deal with the instruments used in crime but addresses the consequences of the sin regardless of what is in the hand of the one committing the sin. It is not a sin to own a gun where possession is legal.

And again...

ToS said:
5 - Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.
 
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