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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study Problem with 1 Samuel 18:10-11
- Thread starter Orion
- Start date
D
DM
Guest
I think the confusion stems from a misunderstanding of what a "spirit" is in this passage.
Both the Hebrew and Greek words that get typically get translated into the English language as "spirit", literally mean "breath", or "wind". It is, quite literally, "an unclean breath", that God sends. (This is also seen in the New Testament where Jesus will destroy the lawless one with the "breath of his mouth" - 2 Thess. 2:8).
Moreover, Saul in the context of 1 Samuel 18:10, is prophesying. This can easily be deduced by doing a concordance search on the word "raved" in that verse. There is only one other time that the Hebrew word gets translated to English as "raved". Most often, it's "prophesied".
This is the critical connection between "words" and "breath" (i.e. "spirit"). Just as to speak words is to literally propel breath from one's mouth, so to believe what is spoken is to "receive" that "spirit" (cf. Galatians 3:2 / Romans 10:17 / Ephesians 1:13).
The "unclean breath / spirit" from God, then, is the word of God coming to Saul. He "raved" (prophesied) by speaking through the "spirit" which God gave to him.
A comparative example is found in 1 Kings 22:13-28, where the prophet Micaiah sees (a vision) where God has, "put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you". (1 Kings 22:23). That the "spirit" is "in the mouth of" the false prophets who are predicting victory for King Ahab, it must be understood that this is not some entity or being that is being dispatched by God, but rather it is "the word / decree of God" (and in this case, some not so choice words) which is being spoken. It is ultimately the believing of the words of the false prophets that will "entice" Ahab (cf. 1 Kings 22:20-22). The language of Macaiah's vision can be understood as either literal (as in a literal scence taking place on the bright side of eternity with Micaiah getting a glimpse of it), or it can be understood as anthropomorphic - a "picture" of what's about to take place.
Peace in Him.
David
Both the Hebrew and Greek words that get typically get translated into the English language as "spirit", literally mean "breath", or "wind". It is, quite literally, "an unclean breath", that God sends. (This is also seen in the New Testament where Jesus will destroy the lawless one with the "breath of his mouth" - 2 Thess. 2:8).
Moreover, Saul in the context of 1 Samuel 18:10, is prophesying. This can easily be deduced by doing a concordance search on the word "raved" in that verse. There is only one other time that the Hebrew word gets translated to English as "raved". Most often, it's "prophesied".
This is the critical connection between "words" and "breath" (i.e. "spirit"). Just as to speak words is to literally propel breath from one's mouth, so to believe what is spoken is to "receive" that "spirit" (cf. Galatians 3:2 / Romans 10:17 / Ephesians 1:13).
The "unclean breath / spirit" from God, then, is the word of God coming to Saul. He "raved" (prophesied) by speaking through the "spirit" which God gave to him.
A comparative example is found in 1 Kings 22:13-28, where the prophet Micaiah sees (a vision) where God has, "put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you". (1 Kings 22:23). That the "spirit" is "in the mouth of" the false prophets who are predicting victory for King Ahab, it must be understood that this is not some entity or being that is being dispatched by God, but rather it is "the word / decree of God" (and in this case, some not so choice words) which is being spoken. It is ultimately the believing of the words of the false prophets that will "entice" Ahab (cf. 1 Kings 22:20-22). The language of Macaiah's vision can be understood as either literal (as in a literal scence taking place on the bright side of eternity with Micaiah getting a glimpse of it), or it can be understood as anthropomorphic - a "picture" of what's about to take place.
Peace in Him.
David
Orion said:
This is a very important verse and not one to be deleted because one doesn't understand it. It bears out that God is the one who is hardening hearts as he tells us in Romans 9. But God himself cannot sin so he uses Satan and his minions to harden people's hearts.
But most peole don't want to believe this about God. They have kind of a "hippie love" perception of God and don't know the bible well enough to know that God is making the decisions of the universe, not us. In every case where someone does evil in the bible, he is ruled by Satan rather than the Holy Spirit, which are the only 2 powers operating in the bible. And Saul is no exception.
G
Guest
Guest
Heidi said:
Are these two powers equal to each other?
aLoneVoice said:
You should know the answer to that, Alone, if you believe that God is the almighty. God is the supreme power in the universe. Just look at Job to see that God controlled Satan. He told Satan he could have his way with Job but not kill him. Notice that Satan complied, not because Satan had free will but because of God's power over Satan. So we humans certainly don't have power over God to do what we want either.
G
Guest
Guest
Heidi said:You should know the answer to that, Alone, if you believe that God is the almighty. God is the supreme power in the universe. Just look at Job to see that God controlled Satan. He told Satan he could have his way with Job but not kill him. Notice that Satan complied, not because Satan had free will but because of God's power over Satan. So we humans certainly don't have power over God to do what we want either.
Heidi - I did not ask out of my own ignorance, rather I was interested in what YOU believed.
All too often people believe that Satan and God are equal oppositites - this gives way to much power to Satan.
Orion,
If you pay close attention to the Bible, you will see that the concept of evil develops over time. Originally, in their idea of God's sovereignty, the Jewish people attributed evil to God himself. This is why you will see no mention of satan in the Torah (the serpent is only identified as satan by tradition). You can also see that the Lord sends an evil spirit to plague king Saul.
The Jews originally believed that obeying God brought prosperity whereas disobeying him would bring destruction and suffering.
In the story of Job, where satan first appears, you can also see that he is considered to have very little power. He appears infront of God and has to ask permission to bring Job his troubles, even in this story it is ultimately God behind human suffering.
Especially after the horror of the Babylonian Exile and the collapse of Israel's self-government, Judaism started to speculate on a more autonomous satan, something that Christianity really picked up.
If you pay close attention to the Bible, you will see that the concept of evil develops over time. Originally, in their idea of God's sovereignty, the Jewish people attributed evil to God himself. This is why you will see no mention of satan in the Torah (the serpent is only identified as satan by tradition). You can also see that the Lord sends an evil spirit to plague king Saul.
The Jews originally believed that obeying God brought prosperity whereas disobeying him would bring destruction and suffering.
In the story of Job, where satan first appears, you can also see that he is considered to have very little power. He appears infront of God and has to ask permission to bring Job his troubles, even in this story it is ultimately God behind human suffering.
Especially after the horror of the Babylonian Exile and the collapse of Israel's self-government, Judaism started to speculate on a more autonomous satan, something that Christianity really picked up.
D
DM
Guest
Heidi said the following in a recent post. "It bears out that God is the one who is hardening hearts as he tells us in Romans 9. But God himself cannot sin so he uses Satan and his minions to harden people's hearts."
In this scenario, Heidi's interpretation would suggest that Satan is God's agent for hardening human hearts. Of course, by implication, this must mean that either God is hardening the heart of Satan, since no agent between God and Satan is presented to harden the heart of Satan in the first place, or that Satan hardens his own heart, of his own accord.
Given that option 1 seems to be unfounded by Scripture, I would offer that it is human beings, in and of themselves - of their own accord - who harden their own hearts to the word of God. God's message, which is "breathed" (in-spirit-ed) through the message of the prophets, apostles and Jesus Christ concerning the gospel of the kingdom of God, is all that is needed for human hearts to be hardened. A hard heart amounts to unbelief in the promises of God.
Peace in Him.
David
In this scenario, Heidi's interpretation would suggest that Satan is God's agent for hardening human hearts. Of course, by implication, this must mean that either God is hardening the heart of Satan, since no agent between God and Satan is presented to harden the heart of Satan in the first place, or that Satan hardens his own heart, of his own accord.
Given that option 1 seems to be unfounded by Scripture, I would offer that it is human beings, in and of themselves - of their own accord - who harden their own hearts to the word of God. God's message, which is "breathed" (in-spirit-ed) through the message of the prophets, apostles and Jesus Christ concerning the gospel of the kingdom of God, is all that is needed for human hearts to be hardened. A hard heart amounts to unbelief in the promises of God.
Peace in Him.
David
DM said:
I take it, you do believe that God hardens hearts, as Romans 9:18 tells us. Is that correct? If you do believe that passage, then how do you think that God hardens hearts? Do you think that God himself can commit evil? If so, then why does he allow Satan in the world? :o What's Satan's purpose and function?
Or do you think that Satan is more powerful than God and God has no control over Satan? :o If so, that would make Satan the supreme power in the universe, not God. So you are in error, friend. :wink: Read Revelations 20:1-3 to see that God can bind Satan any time he wants to. ;-)
D
DM
Guest
Heidi.
It is the message that God reveals to humanity in the gospel of His kingdom, which hardens hearts. Since "the word" is God's agent of revelation to human beings, it is "the word" (i.e. the message of the gospel of the kingdom) to which hearts are hardened. This "word" of God's kingdom is "spirit"
John 6:63b "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
Since "breath" (i.e. spirit) is what animates "life" in the physical world, so the words of Jesus given to him by God, give "eternal" (literally, "coming age") life to those who receive them. To "receive the Spirit", is to believe the gospel. (cf. Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13).
If a human heart is hardened to the truth of the gospel, it is because the hearer of the good news is unable to receive that "spirit" (i.e. words) concerning God's kingdom. Your interpretation of Romans 9:18 is reading beyond the intended meaning of the passage, as if you're suggesting that "God hardens hearts", when you already claimed that God does this via the agency of "Satan and his minions". Are you saying that God hardens the heart of Satan and his minions, who in turn then harden the hearts of humanity? You seem to be trying to insulate God from being culpable in this scenario, and yet giving Him credit for it at the same time. Which is it? Please clarify.
Sincerely,
David
It is the message that God reveals to humanity in the gospel of His kingdom, which hardens hearts. Since "the word" is God's agent of revelation to human beings, it is "the word" (i.e. the message of the gospel of the kingdom) to which hearts are hardened. This "word" of God's kingdom is "spirit"
John 6:63b "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
Since "breath" (i.e. spirit) is what animates "life" in the physical world, so the words of Jesus given to him by God, give "eternal" (literally, "coming age") life to those who receive them. To "receive the Spirit", is to believe the gospel. (cf. Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13).
If a human heart is hardened to the truth of the gospel, it is because the hearer of the good news is unable to receive that "spirit" (i.e. words) concerning God's kingdom. Your interpretation of Romans 9:18 is reading beyond the intended meaning of the passage, as if you're suggesting that "God hardens hearts", when you already claimed that God does this via the agency of "Satan and his minions". Are you saying that God hardens the heart of Satan and his minions, who in turn then harden the hearts of humanity? You seem to be trying to insulate God from being culpable in this scenario, and yet giving Him credit for it at the same time. Which is it? Please clarify.
Sincerely,
David
DM said:
Sorry, but Romans 9:19 doesn't say, "For it is the message of the gospel that hardens hearts." It says; "God hardens hearts."
Nor does the verse in Samuel say; "God didn't send an evil spirit to Saul." It says; "God sent an evil spirit to Saul."
So it's not my claim that God hardens hearts, God says he hardens hearts. So I don't have to clarify. All one has to do is believe the bible as written instead of change the words around to make the bible say what they want it to say as you did. You can read why God hardens hearts in Romans 9:22-25.
D
DM
Guest
Heidi.
In a previous post you said the following: "It bears out that God is the one who is hardening hearts as he tells us in Romans 9. But God himself cannot sin so he uses Satan and his minions to harden people's hearts."
When you say, "But God himself cannot sin so . . .", you seem to be saying that it would be, on the one hand, a sin for God to do the hardening directly? You then continue the thought with, "he (God) uses Satan and his minions to harden people's hearts."
It was this particular construct of your explanation that did (and still) causes me to wonder what exactly you're saying. Are you saying that God does the hardening, or that God instructs Satan to do the hardening? Or something else?
Please clarify.
Sincerely,
David
In a previous post you said the following: "It bears out that God is the one who is hardening hearts as he tells us in Romans 9. But God himself cannot sin so he uses Satan and his minions to harden people's hearts."
When you say, "But God himself cannot sin so . . .", you seem to be saying that it would be, on the one hand, a sin for God to do the hardening directly? You then continue the thought with, "he (God) uses Satan and his minions to harden people's hearts."
It was this particular construct of your explanation that did (and still) causes me to wonder what exactly you're saying. Are you saying that God does the hardening, or that God instructs Satan to do the hardening? Or something else?
Please clarify.
Sincerely,
David