Psalm 110:1 - Yahweh said to Yahweh

[Free]

the Nicene Creed is Biblically WRONG in places. Regardless of who put it together.

Where? There is nothing I disagree with as there is nothing I can see that is unbiblical.

 

[Randy]

if you are going to say that what I have written is wrong, I expect that you provide your own response, rather than sharing someone else' link. Nothing that I have written can be disproved from the Greek, by anyone, as I am 100% confident in what I have written to be factual Greek.

It is very clear from the reading of the greater majority of English Versions, that God the Father Addresses Jesus Christ directly as GOD, in Hebrews 1:8, 9, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος...ὁ Θεός, ὁ Θεός σου". Again, if honesty is used in what is written here, it is very clear that the English reads, "But concerning the Son, Your Throne O God is forever and ever...O God, Your God". As in John 20:28 (Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου), we have instances in Greek grammar, where, the nominative case is used as vocative, in address.

Also, in verses 10-12 of Hebrews 1, the Father Addresses Jesus Christ as LORD (equal to YHWH), and says that He is the actual Creator of the entire universe. the fact that the Father uses Psalm 102:4-27 here, for Jesus Christ, is conclusive to any honest person, that the Father knows Jesus Christ is ALMIGHTY GOD!

Also note in Hebrews 1:6, that Father COMMANDS the WORSHIP of Jesus Christ. something impossible if Jesus Christ is less than YHWH!

I don't know Koine Greek. But as I stated what JLB stated was orthodox as it is stated Jesus is begotten from the Father before all worlds. It is also stated begotten but not made. True God from true God.

The context is clearly Jesus is the only like to like begotten Son from the Father before all things.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Just a brief word on the grave errors in the Nicene Creed

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,
Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,

begotten from the Father before all ages,
light from light,
true God from true God

The use of the Greek preposition, ἐκ, is for the purpose to show that God the Father is the SOURCE of Jesus Christ' Divine Being. Literally is is, "out of", not simply "from".

This is Biblically IMPOSSIBLE and FALSE theology!

Jesus Christ is in the Bible, as much YHWH, THEOS, ELOHIM, as the Father is, and the Holy Spirit is. There is ZERO distinction in the Eternal Godhead between the ABSOLUTE EQUALITY of the Three distinct Persons. None is "greater", or "better" than the other.

The FACT that the Three are YHWH, shows that they are ETERNAL, and therefore UNCREATED and UNDERIVED!

Anything else his demonic HERESY!

 

[Free]

Just a brief word on the grave errors in the Nicene Creed

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,
Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,

begotten from the Father before all ages,
light from light,
true God from true God

The use of the Greek preposition, ἐκ, is for the purpose to show that God the Father is the SOURCE of Jesus Christ' Divine Being. Literally is is, "out of", not simply "from".

This is Biblically IMPOSSIBLE and FALSE theology!

Jesus Christ is in the Bible, as much YHWH, THEOS, ELOHIM, as the Father is, and the Holy Spirit is. There is ZERO distinction in the Eternal Godhead between the ABSOLUTE EQUALITY of the Three distinct Persons. None is "greater", or "better" than the other.

The FACT that the Three are YHWH, shows that they are ETERNAL, and therefore UNCREATED and UNDERIVED!

Anything else his demonic HERESY!

And yet, John 1:14 states:

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

Where "from" or "of" is para and means "from beside," "near," and other similar meanings. The Nicene Creed agrees with John 1:14, and also John 16:27-28 and 17:8, . It is also used of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26 and Acts 2:33.

None of what the Nicene Creed states contradicts Scripture about the nature of Christ. The irony is, you're arguing against an English translation of the Greek text of the Creed, and according to you, the Greek is correct in what it says. So, on both counts--mine and yours--I fail to see how the Creed gives false theology.

 

[SolaScriptura]

And yet, John 1:14 states:

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

Where "from" or "of" is para and means "from beside," "near," and other similar meanings. The Nicene Creed agrees with John 1:14, and also John 16:27-28 and 17:8, . It is also used of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26 and Acts 2:33.

None of what the Nicene Creed states contradicts Scripture about the nature of Christ. The irony is, you're arguing against an English translation of the Greek text of the Creed, and according to you, the Greek is correct in what it says. So, on both counts--mine and yours--I fail to see how the Creed gives false theology.

the Greek preposition, παρὰ, as used in John 1:14, 16:27-28, 17:8, 15:26, and Acts 2:33, is one that shows a clear distinction between the Persons in the Godhead. The KJV in John 1:14 is incorrect, as it is elsewhere.

We need to be precise and through in our study of the Word of God, and not allow our notions and personal views be the guides that we use, only the Holy Spirit.

The theology of the Creed is NOT what the Bible Teaches on the Person of Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit

 

[Free]

the Greek preposition, παρὰ, as used in John 1:14, 16:27-28, 17:8, 15:26, and Acts 2:33, is one that shows a clear distinction between the Persons in the Godhead.

I misunderstood what you were saying. The Greek of the Nicene Creed is probably somewhat more biblical that the English. John says the Son is the "only begotten," the monogenes. That is why we say he is eternally generated. It doesn't mean there was a time when he didn't exist, nor does it mean he is not fully God or equal to the Father. But there is a very important idea being conveyed in John 1:14 and 18.

"The doctrine of eternal generation essentially teaches that God the Father eternally and by necessity generates or begets God the Son in such a way that the substance (divine essence) of God is not divided. The Person of God the Son derives His deity from this generation. In other words, there is a communication of the whole, indivisible substance of the Godhead so that God the Son is the exact representation (or express image) of God the Father. There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof states the doctrine of eternal generation in this way:

It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change (Systematic Theology, pg. 94).

So we see that eternal generation is an act performed by the First Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, this act by the First Person is necessarily and eternally performed. Finally, the result of this act is the generation of the Second Person of the Trinity in such a way that the entire divine essence is communicated from the First Person to the Second Person.

Because of this act of eternal generation, the relational terms, “Father” and “Son,” come to describe the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The Father eternally generates the Son, and the Son is eternally generated by the Father. This is similar to human generation (which, to note, is neither eternal nor necessary). Just as a human father ‘generates’ or ‘begets’ a human son, so the divine Father eternally and necessarily ‘begets’ the divine Son."

https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-generation.html

The KJV in John 1:14 is incorrect, as it is elsewhere.

What is incorrect about it?

We need to be precise and through in our study of the Word of God, and not allow our notions and personal views be the guides that we use, only the Holy Spirit.

And how do you tell the difference between your notions and personal views, and the Holy Spirit?

The theology of the Creed is NOT what the Bible Teaches on the Person of Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit

The Nicene Creed agrees with the Bible.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I misunderstood what you were saying. The Greek of the Nicene Creed is probably somewhat more biblical that the English. John says the Son is the "only begotten," the monogenes. That is why we say he is eternally generated. It doesn't mean there was a time when he didn't exist, nor does it mean he is not fully God or equal to the Father. But there is a very important idea being conveyed in John 1:14 and 18.

"The doctrine of eternal generation essentially teaches that God the Father eternally and by necessity generates or begets God the Son in such a way that the substance (divine essence) of God is not divided. The Person of God the Son derives His deity from this generation. In other words, there is a communication of the whole, indivisible substance of the Godhead so that God the Son is the exact representation (or express image) of God the Father. There is still one divine essence that eternally exists in two persons through eternal generation. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof states the doctrine of eternal generation in this way:

It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change (Systematic Theology, pg. 94).

So we see that eternal generation is an act performed by the First Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, this act by the First Person is necessarily and eternally performed. Finally, the result of this act is the generation of the Second Person of the Trinity in such a way that the entire divine essence is communicated from the First Person to the Second Person.

Because of this act of eternal generation, the relational terms, “Father” and “Son,” come to describe the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The Father eternally generates the Son, and the Son is eternally generated by the Father. This is similar to human generation (which, to note, is neither eternal nor necessary). Just as a human father ‘generates’ or ‘begets’ a human son, so the divine Father eternally and necessarily ‘begets’ the divine Son."

https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-generation.html


What is incorrect about it?


And how do you tell the difference between your notions and personal views, and the Holy Spirit?


The Nicene Creed agrees with the Bible.

Hi, I would like to discuss this further, but this is not the correct place. Can you start a thread on this and I will join in?

 

[Randy]

if you are going to say that what I have written is wrong, I expect that you provide your own response, rather than sharing someone else' link. Nothing that I have written can be disproved from the Greek, by anyone, as I am 100% confident in what I have written to be factual Greek.

It is very clear from the reading of the greater majority of English Versions, that God the Father Addresses Jesus Christ directly as GOD, in Hebrews 1:8, 9, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος...ὁ Θεός, ὁ Θεός σου". Again, if honesty is used in what is written here, it is very clear that the English reads, "But concerning the Son, Your Throne O God is forever and ever...O God, Your God". As in John 20:28 (Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου), we have instances in Greek grammar, where, the nominative case is used as vocative, in address.

Also, in verses 10-12 of Hebrews 1, the Father Addresses Jesus Christ as LORD (equal to YHWH), and says that He is the actual Creator of the entire universe. the fact that the Father uses Psalm 102:4-27 here, for Jesus Christ, is conclusive to any honest person, that the Father knows Jesus Christ is ALMIGHTY GOD!

Also note in Hebrews 1:6, that Father COMMANDS the WORSHIP of Jesus Christ. something impossible if Jesus Christ is less than YHWH!

You didn't address John 1:14. Are you stating, (μονογενὴς monogenēs), doesn't mean only begotten? I aware of different families of manuscripts that have the only begotten Son versus the only begotten God.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

 

[SolaScriptura]

You didn't address John 1:14. Are you stating, (μονογενὴς monogenēs), doesn't mean only begotten? I aware of different families of manuscripts that have the only begotten Son versus the only begotten God.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

The correct Greek word for "only begotten", is "μονογέννητος"

"μονογενής", means "one of a kind, unique"

 

[Randy]

The correct Greek word for "only begotten", is "μονογέννητος"

"μονογενής", means "one of a kind, unique"

I'm not on a translation team nor do I know koine greek but I can read others take on the word. So it doesn't appear as strait forward as your absolute opinion. Considering the wording of the nicene creed they don't agree with you either.

Greek Concordance: μονογενὴς (monogenēs) -- 4 Occurrences

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus is presented as Lord not because He always was and always was God but because God exalted Him.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
Because Jesus is a begotten Son the writer of Hebrews contrasted the superiority of His sonship/name to the angels of God.
This is the same writer of Hebrews you quote and its His understanding.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

One can acknowledge the nature found in the word, (all the fullness of God the Father), and the works of the Father in the beginning by that given nature, as God created all things through Him, by Him and for Him and still know who gave Him that nature. Col 1:19 and believe the Father is the only true unbegotten God. John 17:3

To be clear all the fullness of the living God, the Father, was pleased to dwell in the Firstborn of all creation and Jesus is the image of that other. (God) and One with that other. (Father) He is all that the Father is as the nature found in Him is all the fullness of God.

And God reconciled to "Himself" all things through His Son Col 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[JLB]

read #12

It looks like your point based on post #12 is the Bible really doesn’t mean what it says because it is flawed.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17


Jesus Christ the Son created all things.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth
• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Do you agree with this scripture?




JLB