Pulling The Plug

[Lewis]

I was talking to Jason about the dying VA Vets and that made me want to talk about our own loved ones deaths. Now my question is this, if your mom or daughter or son or whoever was dying and there was no chance for them, would you pull the plug and let them go ? Some people get selfish and will not let them go because they want them here, but it is really time for them to go they are brain dead in a coma for years, and the family still won't pull the plug. I now know that, that is selfish. Now how about you have you instructed your family to pull the plug on you, if you were in the last stage of cancer ? Also is helping a terminally sick person to die a crime in the sight of God and men ?

 

[jefgreen]

I was talking to Jason about the dying VA Vets and that made me want to talk about our own and loved ones deaths. Now my question is this, if your mom or daughter or son or whoever was dying and there was no chance for them, would you pull the plug or let them go. Some people get selfish and will not let them go because they want them here, but it is really time for them to go they are brain dead in a coma for years, and the family still won't pull the plug. I now know that, that is selfish. Now how about you have you instructed your family to pull the plug on you, if you were in the last stage of cancer ? Also is helping a terminally sick person to die a crime in the sight of God and men ?

Ultimately, only God is permitted to make this call - whether or not to let a person continue to live.

Job 1:21 (KJV): "...Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

"Thou shalt not kill" is stated in the ten commandments, as I'm sure you know.

Would pulling the plug be considered murder? Killing? Killing, I believe, can be done with or without malice; however, scripture says that killing is also forbidden. Let's assume conditions are such that only one decision can to be made: The patient continues to live or the plug is pulled. If the patient's kin allows him to live, nothing has changed, obviously. On the contrary, if the patient's kin allows him to fade away and eventually die, then I would argue that the family has killed said patient. They have sinned. Man has just made a decision that only God is allowed to make. Say that you were to assume the following:

- No malice was involved in this decision.
-He was a vegetable and
-He probably would have agreed with the family's decision of letting him go.

Even if this were the case and everything worked out well, a crime was still committed. Everything goes back to the fact that ONLY God may make this decision.

With that: This is not to say that prayer and similar measures cannot not be taken. Our Lord knows the answer. Ask and ye shall receive. There have been miracles of patients coming out of a coma lasting several years. Questions like this should be answered on a case-by-case basis, in my opinion.

God bless.

 

[Pebbles]

In my case my position varies on the decisions of the indivdual and I mean explicitly stated opinions. If an individual has a right to life then they must have a right to waive that right and a right to die.

As I don't belive in god nor is it likley the pepole who would ask me such a thing would either. it's opinion is irrelivient why should I care what a christian thinks in that scenario?

Without god the opinions of concern to me or my moral reasoning are the members involved. Both the person pulling the plug and the person who's body that was.

 

[Aardverk]

The proper, humane thing to do with an animal dying and in pain is to put it out of its misery. Sometimes it is appropriate to treat a human humanely too.

My father was dying of cancer, fading away in agony despite constant pain killers. A couple of days before he died, the doctor told us that he was not likely to survive the pain killing injection 'probably next Saturday' which gave all the family time to gather together from many miles away. We were all able to spend our last precious time with him before the doctor arrived and, as he predicted, my father died during the injection with us all there. I was sitting on the bed next to him holding him as he died, letting him know by my touch how much he was loved.

The truth was probably that my father had asked the doctor to get the family together and then give him an overdose to stop his years of suffering. I assumed beforehand that was the case and I could have stopped the doctor. I could have forced my father to continue to live in agony but that would have been a terribly wrong thing to do. 'Pulling the plug' in that case was very much the right thing to do.

 

[felix]

Now my question is this, if your mom or daughter or son or whoever was dying and there was no chance for them, would you pull the plug or let them go. Some people get selfish and will not let them go because they want them here, but it is really time for them to go they are brain dead in a coma for years, and the family still won't pull the plug. I now know that, that is selfish.

How can you say 'not killing a family member who is suffering' is 'selfish on the part of the family members' and not 'murder' according to scriptures?

Why do you want to take the role of God on your hands who has the authority to take life?

Now how about you have you instructed your family to pull the plug on you, if you were in the last stage of cancer ?

Definitely not. It is God to decide whether it is time for me to go to Him or still I had to be on earth. Just because I am in the last stage of cancer does not mean it is impossible for God to cure it.

Also is helping a terminally sick person to die a crime in the sight of God and men ?

It is definitely crime in the sight of God.

Does God not aware of such suffering? There are only two reasons why people suffer due to sickness:
1. Some kind of secret sin or the Lord taking vengeance for his/her past actions for unforgiven sins (or sins that are not truly repented).
2. For the glory of God.

 

[jasoncran]

both my grandfather died of alzehiemers the likely hood me getting is high based on genetics. i guess at 55 i should commit suicide.


god never said nor did he promise any christian life would be easy. just that in the hereafter theres hope. we cant play god. theres a condundrum of problems with euthansia.

for one insurance would say better to kill the patient then to try to save him. or prolong his life.in holland 12 years old with chronic illness have been put to death.

 

[Lewis]

Felix, what I am saying is let me give you an example. If I have a wife who gets in a car accident and is in a coma for lets say, like a year should I let her continue in that state or should I pull the plug on a man made machine that is keeping her alive. Not pulling the plug is after a while is a very selfish act, and you can't tell me any different.

 

[jasoncran]

Felix, what I am saying is let me give you an example. If I have a wife who gets in a car accident and is in a coma for lets say, like a year should I let her continue in that state or should I pull the plug on a man made machine that is keeping her alive. Not pulling the plug is after a while is a very selfish act, and you can't tell me any different.

how you do know that god wont revive here and use her for something? we cant.

i have made my living will clear on this matter. in the case of being in a coma , dont pull the plug, but if i do die dont revive me.

 

[felix]

Felix, what I am saying is let me give you an example. If I have a wife who gets in a car accident and is in a coma for lets say, like a year should I let her continue in that state or should I pull the plug on a man made machine that is keeping her alive. Not pulling the plug is after a while is a very selfish act, and you can't tell me any different.

Your explanation makes me to remember how David killed Uriah. David didn't kill but sent Uriah to fight by placing him in the frontline.

The action is not judged by what is done outside but the intend of the heart inside. You know that pulling the plug will kill her(exactly how David knew by placing Uriah in frontline will kill him), yet, if you proceed it's clearly murder.

 

[Lewis]

Okay if it happens to my wife or mom and they are in a coma for to long a time they are alive by artificial means a machine. Many people have told their family not to let them live like that, and the family goes against their wishes and lets them stay around in that state. And if one has massive head damage and she or he is not going to return, you are a selfish person to let them continue to live by a machine. My mom told me not to let her live like that.

 

[Lewis]

Jason I will PM you.

 

[felix]

... they are alive by artificial means a machine.

They are not alive by any artificial means a machine but the breath of God is in them.

There are some diseases which require medicines to be taken daily. How about not taking them by saying they are alive by man made medicines?

The answer drilled down as follows:

• Does pulling the plug will kill him? Yes.
• Does not pulling the plug will keep him alive? Yes.
• Then, what is the real intend of pulling the plug? to end suffering by killing
• Is killing a sin? Yes
• Is killing to end other's suffering a sin? Yes

You are simply rewriting God commandment: you shall not murder [except that ends suffering?]

 

[Lewis]

The important thing about this board is we learn here. We are able to discuss different things here and use the Word to go by. Sometimes not so popular questions will be asked, and many times you will get a not so popular answer. We are here to fellowship with other Christians, and we are also here to Evangelize and we are also here to Learn. People need to get answers for the hard questions and it is our job to discuss such things, instead of letting them go to the World for answers.

 

[Lewis]

Felix I heard a woman say one time and it made sense, she said that when we let people languish on life support and that is just what it is (Life Support) she said that when they have been that way for a long time God is allowing them to remain because of (you) but He has no plans to revive them. She said that God will allow them to remain in that state because of your prayers, but He has no plans to revive them. And most of the times He does not. There was a guy in Tennessee who woke up after 26 years, and there was another who woke up after something like 18 years, and he died the next year. Them cases are rare. My mom told me don't let her live like that and other family members have told me that too. As for me, if I don't wake up for months or something pull the plug.

 

[Lewis]

lewis the comatose dont die within minutes but days sometimes it take about three days. they die from dehydration and that has them bleeding from their membranes first.

how is that humane?

I don't know Jason, that is why I started this subject so that I and others could learn something. Because this pulling the plug thing is up against people everyday all over the world. Every second somewhere somebody is making a decision to pull the plug or let them languish.

 

[felix]

Felix I heard a woman say one time and it made sense, she said that when we let people languish on life support and that is just what it is (Life Support) she said that when they have been that way for a long time God is allowing them to remain because of (you) but He has no plans to revive them. She said that God will allow them to remain in that state because of your prayers, but He has no plans to revive them. And most of the times He does not. There was a guy in Tennessee who woke up after 26 years, and there was another who woke up after something like 18 years, and he died the next year. Them cases are rare. My mom told me don't let her live like that and other family members have told me that too. As for me, if I don't wake up for months or something pull the plug.

She is contradicting herself and doesn't make any sense to me.

She is portraying a group of people as if they are praying to God for - to keep just alive as she says? No, no one prays like that but to cure the sick person who needs life support. Then she goes on to say God is allowing them to remain in life support without curing or no intention to revive them as if she knows what God is going to do. If the family is willing o save him/her, what is that to do with her?

If she is not willing to save anyone from life support and it seems to be selfish on her, why don't she simply ask God to take the suffering soul?

Just to add, a peaceful death is a blessing from God. God will not allow any such suffering on his children. Nor will He allow His children to be a burden to others. If such suffering comes, it could very well be either some past un-forgiven sins or for God to reveal His glory through him. Scripture does not teach any other reason.

 

[Vic C.]

Hmm,

My mom, who is 81, has a living will that states she is not to be kept alive by any artificial means. If and when the times comes, I will honor her will. The Lord teaches us to honor our mother and father. I cannot believe the Lord would contradict Himself and call this murder if I am honoring her living will.

 

[Pebbles]

There was a guy in Tennessee who woke up after 26 years.

There are two cases where I know that happened.

One of them was a victim of severe medical malpractice he had been completely paralysed (locked him syndrome) but was concious all that time. a brain scan revealed it the hospital had refused to perform a brain scan on him in all those years. In either case he never woke up because he was strictly speaking never in a coma although it's misreported as such.

The other incident involved a man who was very much in a deep coma and then awoke after 26 years... I say. "awoke" because he only has a crude level of conciousness or awareness. It's more like from a deep coma to less deep one.
A coma isn't like sleeping there are levels of neurological functioning.

He went from none to minimal.

Specifically he has extreme damage to both his temporal lobes meaning he's incapable of aquiring any new long term memory. Significant damage to his motor cortex, and moderate damage to his prefrontal lobes, and visual cortex. Meaning he's completely paralysed still thinks he's 21 years old can't and won't ever remeber anything from the time of his accident and is still dependant on feeding tube assisted life support. And is prone to bouts of explosive anger whenever anyone introduces him to new stimuli, such as seeing his daughter who was 2 at the time of the accident because he thinks that she's his mother.

I mean I guess he's alive so the point is valid. But don't misstate what happened this isn't a miraculous recovery and happy ever after.

 

[felix]

Hmm,

My mom, who is 81, has a living will that states she is not to be kept alive by any artificial means. If and when the times comes, I will honor her will. The Lord teaches us to honor our mother and father. I cannot believe the Lord would contradict Himself and call this murder if I am honoring her living will.

You don't kill to honor someone. If your mother ask you to murder your neighbor, will you honor her will?

 

[jasoncran]

She is contradicting herself and doesn't make any sense to me.

She is portraying a group of people as if they are praying to God for - to keep just alive as she says? No, no one prays like that but to cure the sick person who needs life support. Then she goes on to say God is allowing them to remain in life support without curing or no intention to revive them as if she knows what God is going to do. If the family is willing o save him/her, what is that to do with her?

If she is not willing to save anyone from life support and it seems to be selfish on her, why don't she simply ask God to take the suffering soul?

Just to add, a peaceful death is a blessing from God. God will not allow any such suffering on his children. Nor will He allow His children to be a burden to others. If such suffering comes, it could very well be either some past un-forgiven sins or for God to reveal His glory through him. Scripture does not teach any other reason.

i dont get you.

ye say that we arent under the law yet this well no christian will suffer during death

yet peter was crucified upside down. what do you suggest that a christian when faced with these illness repent every second? serious. i wasnt going to bother with that and its funny you also say that gays and so forth are the reason the land is cursed.

if the law is done then its all done. not parts. god still judges nations does he not?

funny how inconsistent that is the generational curse thing is from the law not really mentioned in the nt at all.