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Purgatory??????

IS Purgatory agaist the Doctrine of Eternal Judgement?

  • Total voters
    10
And though Purgatory isn't used in the Bible does not necessary conclude it is made up or false. The Trinity isn't used in the Bible.

I'm not quite sure where this doctrine originates from. Maybe I should find that out.
 
Catholic Convert said:
.....If your a fairly good person and don't reject God you are sent to Purgatory to be cleansed and made ready to heaven......
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Hi CC. Welcome and thanks for your comments.

The problem here is, how good is 'fairly good' in God's eyes? Isaiah says that "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."(Isa 64:6)

And Paul goes on to say...
Rom 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:..."

and again...

Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.'

There are many more verses which state that our righteousness means nothing in God's eyes...but we can start here.

:angel:

Vic
 
rev 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Just not having complete confidence in God is a sin.."fearful".....wouldn't that qualify as a pretty good person....did not say he was a murder, or adulterer....just lacked in faith....

This is Doctrine.

Purgatory is a whim of Doctrine, used for people to make room for dead people they don't feel like made it to heaven....sad.
 
Monkey Del said:
rev 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Just not having complete confidence in God is a sin.."fearful".....wouldn't that qualify as a pretty good person....did not say he was a murder, or adulterer....just lacked in faith....

This is Doctrine.

Purgatory is a whim of Doctrine, used for people to make room for dead people they don't feel like made it to heaven....sad.
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Being fearful isn't a sin.

1COR 2:3 Far from relying on any power of my own, I came among you in great 'fear and trembling'

PHIL 2:12 So then, my dear friends, continue to do as I tell you, as you always have; not only as you did when I was there with you, but even more now that I am no longer there; and work for your salvation 'in fear and trembling'.
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If you have no fear at all on the road to salvation you could fall into presumption, which is a sin. In this, a person is so confident that they're okay with God that they become careless and presume that God will forgive them whatever they do. The comment you quote in Revelations about the fearful means the cowards who are afraid of men and prefer to please them before God.

As for Purgatory, that makes perfect sense to me, especially if you believe that a certain amount of purging goes on in this life. If you believe that then what happens if you die before the purging is complete, how is it finished?

Tobael
 
Catholic Convert said:
The doctrine of Purgatory is pretty easy to beleive.
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Hi Eric. Well that's all good and well. But what can you tell us to try and convince us to believe this doctrine. This IS the Apologetics forum, so lets see some apologeticing. :lol: :wink:

:angel:
 
Well, this has been dead for a while, but it looks like one poster may have been a bit confused of some things, so might as well clear up where the Catholic position on purgatory comes from.

First what purgatory isn't. It isn't a place where people are forgiven of sins that they never asked forgiveness for. Anyone who dies in such a state goes to Hell forever, end of discussion. I don't care how nice they were to everyone. Die in a state of (mortal) sin, you are going to Hell.

What of those who go to Heaven? Nothing perfect may enter heaven (Rev. 21:27), so how can any of us be made perfect? Even if we do not die separated from God? That is what purgatory is. Ideas of "doing time" in a "place" are simply constructs that we have made to get our finite minds around the idea. Much like heaven full of fluffy clouds and angels playing harps.

Here is how one of the early Fathers describes purgatory:
"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness."
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Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14

This is talking about the judgment of God. Even if you know you are going to Heaven at the moment of judgment when you know your sins, don't you think you'd be rather embarrassed to say the least? Seeing Jesus there and knowing what our sins did to him, wouldn't this be painful? This is purgatory. It will be over, but while it lasts, it much seem quite hellish and long.

This quote from Clement may sound familiar:
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
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(1 Cor 3:13-15)

Purgatory is the time that we are in the fire of God's judgment. Even those who's construction (their soul) survives the fire (ie they go to Heaven) are still tested in the fire.

Hope that clears some things up.
 
What of those who go to Heaven? Nothing perfect may enter heaven (Rev. 21:27)
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You must mean imperfect, unclean, as the verse indicates.

As for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, it clearly says the Day will reveal it. The Day of God's judgement, Not purgatory.

~Josh
 
Yes, of course. Typo on my part. Otherwise God wouldn't be in heaven :lol:

Do the mods want this moved to the newer purgatory post? I just noticed there was a newer one after I posted, sorry for that.

"the Day will reveal it. The Day of God's judgement"

Figurative. Again, we are have minds that think in time and of finite things. That is why we have no hope of fully comprehending God in this life, all we are doing is looking through a glass darkly. I forget exactly where the quote is, but it says that to God a thousand years is but as a day. Time is just meaningless. To us standing there in the fire of God's judgment, I'm thinking that for most of us it will seem to go on forever, or at least be the greatest sorrow and pain that we have ever felt. Again, I'm going back into speaking of time. It's hard not to. But I think you'd agree that to the soul, time is meaningless.

Compared to all the time (or lack of time, eternity) we will spend with God in heaven, this testing fire will seem like but a day once we look back on it. I don't think it will be a fun thing, I'm certainly not looking forward to it. Just in this life without visibly seeing God in all His Glory right in front of me, thinking over what I have done in the past to Our Lord and how undeserving we are to even be able to stand in front of Him and endure that fire is just terrifying. How can you not be horrified by your past sins thinking of Christ on the Cross suffering all of that? I shudder to expand that to what it will be like when I see him face to face. But of course, we have the hope that we will come through all right and make it to the other side.

In the end, I'm pretty sure we will see that we are talking about the same thing. The Orthodox have a view of it as more of a journey, which seems to be a rather nice analogy. I'm not an expert on that theology by any means, but it is interesting. Using specific words that elicit specific images is where the problem is, not in the concept, I believe.
 
But what can you tell us to try and convince us to believe this doctrine
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Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Peace
 
Mungo said:
Can you prove both of those statements or are we supposed to take your word for it.
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Well, to begin with, the first mention of a soul is with the creation of Adam.
I'm sure you are familiar with it.
Adam .... BECAME .... a living soul.
There are a great many scriptures that say souls were KILLED, even though modern translations substitute "persons" instead of soul. (Nephesh)

Not having an 'Immortal Soul' put in him.

Agree?
 
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