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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Purpose of the Great Trib
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
D
Darrell dunn
Guest
God dose not want any to go to hell.
So He is trying to get their attention, With the tribulations.
So He is trying to get their attention, With the tribulations.
Vic C.
Member
It wouldn't bother me though I wouldn't get joy from it either. We are speaking hypothetically in light of 1 Thess 5:9, correct? They will even be crying out for vengeance from Heaven...
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
The Great Tribulation is Antichrist's time of persecution against all believers. God's Wrath is His anger poured out on an unbelieving world.
Yet some still insist these are the same event. :-?
I asked a question in another thread. I asked when the two witnesses appear in the 70th. week. Darrell confirmed my beliefs...
That would bring us halfway through the week. That is about the time most of us believe the Great Tribulation starts, correct?Darrell dunn said:
Some have mentioned Malachi 4:5 in determining one of the two witnesses. Lets look at it...
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
It says Elijah will be sent before the Day of the Lord, but we have him coming at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. How can they be the same event? This is one of many verses that show a separation of these events. It confuses me as to how so many could say these events are one in the same. :-?
Vic said:
That'd be me.
Looking at Matthew 24:21 that reads the Great Tribulation is a unique time of trouble "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE."
Also:
"...a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book" Daniel 12:1 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" Jer. 30:7. see also Joel 2:2 "Day of the Lord"
I don't buy the pre-wrath view that the Day of the Lord begins after the Great Tribulation and that the Day of the Lord is the time of God’s wrath. With Matthew 24:21, Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7 all teaching the Great Tribulation is the greatest time of trouble that the world has ever known.
The pre-wrath view has a big problem with Matthew 24:21, and I find it hard to believe that the time of God’s wrath should be less severe than the Great Tribulation.
But as I said, I'm new and could be wrong.
Peace,
JM
Vic C.
Member
Since I believe the GT and Wrath are two distinct events, I have no problems believing the Tribulation will be the worst ever in history, past, present and future. Yes, God's Wrath will be worse overall, but it's not Tribulation, it will not be against believers and that's where I draw the line. But back to my question... sorry to sidetrack the topic.
If the two witnesses are to appear before God's wrath, as stated in Malachi, but we place them as appearing at the start of the second half of the 70th. week, where we believe the GT to begin, how can these two events, GT and Wrath, be the same? :-?
What if we were to do this? Call it the Great Tribulation and subdivide it into two 'episodes', for lack of a better word. The first 'epidode' is the Antichrist's wrath or persecution against believers and the second 'episode' is the Wrath of God against an unbelieving world.
:
If the two witnesses are to appear before God's wrath, as stated in Malachi, but we place them as appearing at the start of the second half of the 70th. week, where we believe the GT to begin, how can these two events, GT and Wrath, be the same? :-?
What if we were to do this? Call it the Great Tribulation and subdivide it into two 'episodes', for lack of a better word. The first 'epidode' is the Antichrist's wrath or persecution against believers and the second 'episode' is the Wrath of God against an unbelieving world.
:
P
preterist
Guest
It was to punish the unbelieving Jews.
Adam Clarke:
Mat 24:21 -
For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luk_21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.
John Gill
Mat 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation,.... This is urged as a reason for their speedy flight; since the calamity that would come upon those who should remain in the city, what through the sword, famine, pestilence, murders, robberies, &c. would
Why don’t we let Jesus tell us who this Elijah was:
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Well what do you know, John the Baptist(Elijah) came just 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem(Day of the Lord).
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
N
noblej6
Guest
Hi Forum,
There are a few ideas of how a future great tribulation would happen. There probably is more than one guess at how the GT would occur in the past too.
Here is how I see the big picture in the 'past' theory.
The great trib is to punish those who rejected Jesus Christ when He first came to earth.
Generally speaking Matthew 23 describes who will suffer the wrath of God.
God doesn't outfit Himself with literal armor and sharpen a literal sword to conduct the killing of the unbelievers as I see it. God enlists the physical army of Rome (NERO) to do the actual fighting. Then it becomes possible for Satan(NERO) to cause the deaths of the Christian followers Of Jesus as Jesus describes in the Olivet Discourse. It also becomes possible for the wrath of God to be handed out to those in Judea and in the actual town of Jerusalem.
Here is who will suffer the wrath of God.
Matthew 23
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,........................ 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
Those who see Him coming finally twig that He was indeed the promised Messiah and they are the multitude that came out of the tribulation. They saw the light and washed their robes.
The danger to Christians here is that the Roman army was crucifying them in great numbers. This had more to do with Nero and others hating the followers of Christ than anything else, however, Jesus did predict it in the Olivet.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
The above statement was really true for some of those deciples because they were crucified by the Romans.
Now here are some verses that fit in with this idea.
2 Thess 2
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
So God held back the rebellion of Judea until it was time for the Great Tribulation to start.
Luke 21
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
Notice the WRATH part and the "all that has been written"
The people who were followers of Jesus Christ DID flee fom Judea back then according to Josephus and they did appently flee to the mountains.
What does anyone see here that doesn't follow scripture? Or more importantly what is in scripture that would make this NOT agree with the bible?
noble6
There are a few ideas of how a future great tribulation would happen. There probably is more than one guess at how the GT would occur in the past too.
Here is how I see the big picture in the 'past' theory.
The great trib is to punish those who rejected Jesus Christ when He first came to earth.
Generally speaking Matthew 23 describes who will suffer the wrath of God.
God doesn't outfit Himself with literal armor and sharpen a literal sword to conduct the killing of the unbelievers as I see it. God enlists the physical army of Rome (NERO) to do the actual fighting. Then it becomes possible for Satan(NERO) to cause the deaths of the Christian followers Of Jesus as Jesus describes in the Olivet Discourse. It also becomes possible for the wrath of God to be handed out to those in Judea and in the actual town of Jerusalem.
Here is who will suffer the wrath of God.
Matthew 23
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,........................ 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
Those who see Him coming finally twig that He was indeed the promised Messiah and they are the multitude that came out of the tribulation. They saw the light and washed their robes.
The danger to Christians here is that the Roman army was crucifying them in great numbers. This had more to do with Nero and others hating the followers of Christ than anything else, however, Jesus did predict it in the Olivet.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
The above statement was really true for some of those deciples because they were crucified by the Romans.
Now here are some verses that fit in with this idea.
2 Thess 2
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
So God held back the rebellion of Judea until it was time for the Great Tribulation to start.
Luke 21
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
Notice the WRATH part and the "all that has been written"
The people who were followers of Jesus Christ DID flee fom Judea back then according to Josephus and they did appently flee to the mountains.
What does anyone see here that doesn't follow scripture? Or more importantly what is in scripture that would make this NOT agree with the bible?
noble6
I
irishrain
Guest
JM said:
Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deu 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
Deu 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
S
Solo
Guest
The Great Tribulation is the World's persecution of the chosen of God, and the bringing about of Satan's position as god being worshipped by the world. This period is not the wrath of God.JM said:
The wrath of God is poured out after Jesus returns and his chosen meet Jesus in the air and the 144,000 sealed from harm.
D
Darrell dunn
Guest
Vic
I can not find anything that says that the word tribulation, means only against believers from the world,
The word tribulation just means trouble, or troubles, It could be troubles on anyone.
It is not a holy word meaning only the church.
There will be troubles, then there will be great troubles.
The persecution of the church during this time. Jesus described in Mat. 24: 51 when He said they will be appointed a portion with the hypocrites: there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Gods wrath is the great tribulations (or troubles on the world)
The way that God has told me there will not be anyone saved during this time unless they endure till the end. all of the saved are gone, and the Jews are hiding in the mountains.
This will be when the two witnesses will preach.
I can not find anything that says that the word tribulation, means only against believers from the world,
The word tribulation just means trouble, or troubles, It could be troubles on anyone.
It is not a holy word meaning only the church.
There will be troubles, then there will be great troubles.
The persecution of the church during this time. Jesus described in Mat. 24: 51 when He said they will be appointed a portion with the hypocrites: there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Gods wrath is the great tribulations (or troubles on the world)
The way that God has told me there will not be anyone saved during this time unless they endure till the end. all of the saved are gone, and the Jews are hiding in the mountains.
This will be when the two witnesses will preach.
Vic said:Since I believe the GT and Wrath are two distinct events, I have no problems believing the Tribulation will be the worst ever in history, past, present and future. Yes, God's Wrath will be worse overall, but it's not Tribulation, it will not be against believers and that's where I draw the line. But back to my question... sorry to sidetrack the topic.
If the two witnesses are to appear before God's wrath, as stated in Malachi, but we place them as appearing at the start of the second half of the 70th. week, where we believe the GT to begin, how can these two events, GT and Wrath, be the same? :-?
What if we were to do this? Call it the Great Tribulation and subdivide it into two 'episodes', for lack of a better word. The first 'epidode' is the Antichrist's wrath or persecution against believers and the second 'episode' is the Wrath of God against an unbelieving world.
Here's what I got back...
Quote:
I've always understood the two witnesses to have their ministry during the first part of Daniel's 70th week, not the last part.
Vic, why would you say the ministry doesn't start at the first part of the 70th week?
Vic C.
Member
No offense anyone, but I feel as though I've been talking to myself the last couple of months. I have given explanations and timelines many, many times for what I believe and why.
I'm going to ask some questions...
When do you all believe the Great Tribulations starts and why? Can you show me in Revelation?
Do you believe that believers are persecuted and killed during this Great Tribulation?
Why would God be concerned with tribulation of nonbelievers in the End?
If the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are the same, these verses makes God look like the bad guy for doing in His own followers.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
________________________________________________________________________
Jason, read the text surrounding Revelation 11:13 and see what events are transpiring. Are they 1st. half or 2nd. half events? I already mentioned in a PM that the first half of the week will be a time of peace, false peace. Daniel 9:27 confirms that, correct? We believe that covenant to be a sort of peace treaty, no?
Now look at the powers the witnesses have;
fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies:
(enemies? during a time of peace?)
power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
(hmm, no rain, hard to uphold peace in a time of drought)
have power over waters to turn them to blood,
:o
to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
and look at this;
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The seventh angel sounded? in the first half of the week? :-?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The nations were angry? In a time of peace?
I have been accused of making scrambled eggs out of scripture, but it is not me who is twisting the timeline of events in Revelation. Antichrst's true identity is revealed midweek. This is the time the world will need the two witnesses, the three angels and their woes, which I didn't mention 'til now, and the sealed 144,000.
I'm going to ask some questions...
When do you all believe the Great Tribulations starts and why? Can you show me in Revelation?
Do you believe that believers are persecuted and killed during this Great Tribulation?
Why would God be concerned with tribulation of nonbelievers in the End?
If the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are the same, these verses makes God look like the bad guy for doing in His own followers.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
________________________________________________________________________
Jason, read the text surrounding Revelation 11:13 and see what events are transpiring. Are they 1st. half or 2nd. half events? I already mentioned in a PM that the first half of the week will be a time of peace, false peace. Daniel 9:27 confirms that, correct? We believe that covenant to be a sort of peace treaty, no?
Now look at the powers the witnesses have;
fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies:
(enemies? during a time of peace?)
power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
(hmm, no rain, hard to uphold peace in a time of drought)
have power over waters to turn them to blood,
:o
to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
and look at this;
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The seventh angel sounded? in the first half of the week? :-?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The nations were angry? In a time of peace?
I have been accused of making scrambled eggs out of scripture, but it is not me who is twisting the timeline of events in Revelation. Antichrst's true identity is revealed midweek. This is the time the world will need the two witnesses, the three angels and their woes, which I didn't mention 'til now, and the sealed 144,000.
N
noblej6
Guest
Hi Vic,
All part of the great tribulation. Because I see this as the rebellion of Judea, I can see how it follows that history. It seems good to me.
If I could I would like to answer some questions you asked in another post not addressed to me.
I see the great trib starting as soon as the followers of Christ flee Judea fter seeing the abomination.
I would think Christians are martyred before during and after the great tribulation, but those talked about in the OLivet are mostly before the great tribulation starts. There are some Christians martyred later somewhere as we see here:
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
I don't see the great tribulation as being at the end of time but at the time of the end which was the end of the old system and the beginning of the new Heavenly kingdom. So yes, the largest number of casualties in this rebellion are those who rejected Christ, the non believers. It was non believers that saw Jesus coming on the clouds for the most part. They realized the error of their ways and washed their robes.
This is actually before the great tribulation happens as we see in Matthew 24.
If you notice the GT doesn't happen until after they see the abomination and they flee Judea. As I said there are many people persecuted and murdered just as Jesus predicted they would be. The Roman power were against this new fledgling Christianity.
Yes, the ones who rejected Christ were in for some bad trouble just as Jesus tells them in Matthew 23.
The dragon, here again the Roman Herrod, tried everything to rid his empire of this Christ, to discourage any following of the Messiah. He even tried to kill all male babies up to two years old. He worked against all who may start to believe in this Jesus Christ.
So Jesus told His deciples specifically that they would be persecured and killed, but that was because of their testimony of Jesus. They were killed by the Roman army which also was the tool with which Jesus carried out the Wrath of God against those who rejected Jesus.
So that is how I see it fitting into the rebellion of Judea in the first century.
All part of the great tribulation. Because I see this as the rebellion of Judea, I can see how it follows that history. It seems good to me.
If I could I would like to answer some questions you asked in another post not addressed to me.
I see the great trib starting as soon as the followers of Christ flee Judea fter seeing the abomination.
I would think Christians are martyred before during and after the great tribulation, but those talked about in the OLivet are mostly before the great tribulation starts. There are some Christians martyred later somewhere as we see here:
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
I don't see the great tribulation as being at the end of time but at the time of the end which was the end of the old system and the beginning of the new Heavenly kingdom. So yes, the largest number of casualties in this rebellion are those who rejected Christ, the non believers. It was non believers that saw Jesus coming on the clouds for the most part. They realized the error of their ways and washed their robes.
This is actually before the great tribulation happens as we see in Matthew 24.
If you notice the GT doesn't happen until after they see the abomination and they flee Judea. As I said there are many people persecuted and murdered just as Jesus predicted they would be. The Roman power were against this new fledgling Christianity.
Yes, the ones who rejected Christ were in for some bad trouble just as Jesus tells them in Matthew 23.
The dragon, here again the Roman Herrod, tried everything to rid his empire of this Christ, to discourage any following of the Messiah. He even tried to kill all male babies up to two years old. He worked against all who may start to believe in this Jesus Christ.
So Jesus told His deciples specifically that they would be persecured and killed, but that was because of their testimony of Jesus. They were killed by the Roman army which also was the tool with which Jesus carried out the Wrath of God against those who rejected Jesus.
So that is how I see it fitting into the rebellion of Judea in the first century.
Vic C.
Member
No problem. I consider you a part of "you all". It wasn't addressed to anyone specific. Thanks for taking the time to respond.noblej6 said:
I agree on your placement of the GT, but I see this particular abomination as a future event.
I would think Christians are martyred before during and after the great tribulation, but those talked about in the OLivet are mostly before the great tribulation starts. There are some Christians martyred later somewhere as we see here:
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.[/quote:a6e57]
I did sneak in Matthew 24:9 by mistake, but left it. I knew someone would pick that up and you did, as you stated in your post.
The verses you just quoted above; I place them smack in the midst of the persecution and martyrdom that I believe makes up the GT.
I don't see the great tribulation as being at the end of time but at the time of the end which was the end of the old system and the beginning of the new Heavenly kingdom.[/quote:a6e57]
Agreed. It's the end of a particular age. That's why I just 'said' "End". I made an assumption people would know I didn't mean the end of time.
My question actually revolved around the fact that the word Tribulation appears in the KJB 22 times; 3 in the OT, 19 in the NT. All but Judges 10:14 pertains to believers. This leads me to believe the GT Jesus speaks about is Tribulation against believers, but on a scale never experienced before on Earth. The Tribulation to end all tribulations. ;) 1 Thessalonians 3:3 even suggests we are appointed to affliction (tribulation). While Paul states we will be appointed to tribulation, he also comforts us by telling us we ARE NOT appointed to wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) This is one reason why I believe the GT and God's Wrath are not the same.
I just don't see God persecuting His own. He allows it, as He allowed persecution all throughout our 2,000 year history. Excuse me for applying human logic here, but it is Scriptually-based.
D
Darrell dunn
Guest
Vic
I believe you missed a couple
Rom.2:9 TRIBULATION and aguish, upon every soul of man that doeth EVIL; of the Jew first and also of the Gentile.
2Th.1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense TRIBULATION to them that trouble you.
Both of these are God causing the world tribulation.
And the tribulations is for the world, and a portion for those not found ready when he comes, Mat.24:51
I believe you missed a couple
Rom.2:9 TRIBULATION and aguish, upon every soul of man that doeth EVIL; of the Jew first and also of the Gentile.
2Th.1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense TRIBULATION to them that trouble you.
Both of these are God causing the world tribulation.
And the tribulations is for the world, and a portion for those not found ready when he comes, Mat.24:51
: Serves me right for trying to post and work at the same time. 8-)