Putting a time limit on the holy spirit!

[ZHarner83]

Can I get some opinions!

Tonight my time with my kids ran over quite a bit after the service. I wasn't doing this out of my own gain, but because the spirit was leading me to deliver an important message about their relationships together and with others.

One set of parents, (the ones that always get mad about this), got upset.

I guess I get confused on why. If the Holy Spirit is telling me to do something, who am I or any other person to stop it?

I was tempted to say to the father, "well you know, if you would actually spend time teaching your kids a Christ like attitude the rest of the week, I wouldn't have to cram it into an hour on Sunday night!"... but I didn't. He gave me a dirty look as if I did though. He said he had other kids to get home, I just replied with "I understand, but I have work for God to do and have to do it when he says."

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, ministries can get bigger than planned.
If a contemptuous parent crosses your path, then he/she needs attention.

1. Pray for them.

2. Ask God to show you what he wants you to do about it.

3. You may find a time that you and that parent can talk alone and you can do some "adult" pastoring.

4. Get your children out on time.

5. If you get the parent on the right track, it goes a long way to help the child.

 

[ZHarner83]

I agree with all of them except 4. I get them out most of the time on time. BUT if the spirit is leading me to continue on, (because what is our "time" compared to God and his glory) I believe that I should continue on. If they spirit says whoa, lets get them out of here, then I'll do that too.

My wife suggested that I write a letter to the parents letting them know that sometimes the youth service/event will go over.

 

[ZHarner83]

I guess it may be me being stubborn, but I kind of hold these parents at a higher standard than the kids and believe they should appreciate the fact that their kids are having moments that are taking them closer to God.

It could also be that typically it takes under 7 minutes for the entire church to clear out after the downstairs service is done. If they end at 11:50 downstairs, I will release my by kids at noon (on most days as it is the scheduled time), take a couple minutes to clean up the youth area, and by the time I head downstairs the church is a ghost town. I am the last person to leave on most Sundays. I have been since I started. Perhaps the parents are spoiled by the rush to get out to lunch every Sunday? and the idea of allowing God to control the service instead of putting a time limit on it is foreign to them? Anyone else ever had a similar situation with the release rush?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It seems that you may need to talk to your pastor about it.
You don't want the parents to take their kids else where.

 

[reba]

Yea Z just get used to it

If I had a youth group I would be watching the calendar for the local school activities little league soft ball those kind of things so the KIDS are not torn. Parents using the youth group as a sitter is nothing new....sometimes parents do have plans maybe some one has to pick Grandma up at the airport.....Most every one turns to see who opened a door you could let 'your kids' know if dad shows up ... quietly get up and slip out....

I was tempted to say to the father, "well you know, if you would actually spend time teaching your kids a Christ like attitude the rest of the week, I wouldn't have to cram it into an hour on Sunday night

Spot on here but ya have to find a pleasant way of saying it.... Remember God is in control not you... His Word will not ....
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it....




Lived with AofG Sunday School for what seems like forever wouldn't change what I learned for nothing!

 

[Sparkey]

"well you know, if you would actually spend time..."

The last couple verses in the Old Testament speak of Elijah, the "Friend of the Bridegroom" being sent prior to His coming. His Heart and his Spirit, together with what you have said here today, say:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth [the eretz] with a curse.

- Mal 4:5 KJV -

I like it when I see the word "Behold(!): in the Word of God. "Look now and see:"

 

[ZHarner83]

Allen, I did mention it the Pastor the last time it occurred. Pastor's response was that this father volunteers to run the sound board and has saved the church a lot of money by doing volunteer work around the church. He then left it at that I need to let the kids out on time....

Who am I to quench the Holy Spirit from doing his work? I honor my pastor, but (pardon my military terms here) the Holy Spirit out ranks him. So I have to take orders from the superiors in my chain of command. If a man whom we honor is telling us to go against what God wants, how do we continue to honor him, if the initial reason for our honor was our respect for his obedience to God?

I do check those things Reba. I try to make sure not to schedule any events on nights that they have them. Oddly, the school in my town is a huge fan of having events on Sundays. My high school didn't do this, so it was a real shock to me!

And if God leads me to ever address this man on the issue, I am 100% sure that he will allow me to do it tactfully.

So what you're saying Sparrow is that I need to change this man's heart before we all get smited!!!? :P

 

[Sparkey]

you're saying Sparrow is that I need to change

Hmmmmm.... Is that what I said? Maybe not. I thought I said that I heard the voice that I've longed to hear in the sound of your cry.

Smite that, baby! :toofunny
Me hasta run now. L8r

 

[reba]

Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

A sound board? Don't even let me get started on what churches need.... Teaching the youth out ranks a sound board... Big time... Who is the worship service for? O never mind that is another thread...

 

[Obadiah]

Well, ZH, I've been in your situation more than once. Each time I simply asked myself one question: "Who is my God, the God of Israel or the clock on the wall?" The answer for me was obvious and I had no trouble deciding which one to obey. In fact, I even removed the clocks from my youth room for exactly this reason. A lot of teenagers worship the clock as much as their parents do and it is distracting when it's mounted on the youth room wall. Why do you think church sanctuaries don't have wall clocks prominently placed for everyone to see?

Yes, it is good to respect time constraints and the schedules and commitments of others when that doesn't interfere with God's work. On those times that the Holy Spirit is leading you otherwise (and it doesn't sound like you let the kids out late just because they were in the middle of having fun with some kind of unimportant game!) the clock has to go out the window unless you want to make it your idol instead of God. And you can not sacrifice the work God is trying to do in your whole group of kids just to placate one parent who doesn't care about that. To many times parents have no respect for their teenage children and don't even consider that those kids may even care to follow God. The youth program is nothing more than a babysitting service in the minds of those kind of parents, and that many times results in the attitudes you are describing here. But it doesn't matter how much volunteer work those parents do in the church, your job and your calling is to make disciples out of these teenagers, not to be their babysitter. You must follow God's will and what he has called you to do. If one kid needs to leave before you are done once in a while, that's the way it goes. But you can't sacrifice the work of the Holy Spirit in the whole group just because of one parent (or even a few parents) doesn't care about God or His work in their teenager's life more than they care about getting home to watch the "big game" on TV or whatever other thing they had planned that day.

 

[Obadiah]

A sound board? Don't even let me get started on what churches need.... Teaching the youth out ranks a sound board... Big time... Who is the worship service for? O never mind that is another thread...

Hahaha! As a paid staff church sound tech I wish you would start that thread! People always seem shocked that my attitude is one of being there to serve them and help God work in the worship service rather than to have them serve my desires as a sound tech! To many sound techs (pro or volunteer) and the churches they work in have done the opposite!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Allen, I did mention it the Pastor the last time it occurred. Pastor's response was that this father volunteers to run the sound board and has saved the church a lot of money by doing volunteer work around the church. He then left it at that I need to let the kids out on time....

Who am I to quench the Holy Spirit from doing his work? I honor my pastor, but (pardon my military terms here) the Holy Spirit out ranks him. So I have to take orders from the superiors in my chain of command. If a man whom we honor is telling us to go against what God wants, how do we continue to honor him, if the initial reason for our honor was our respect for his obedience to God?

I do check those things Reba. I try to make sure not to schedule any events on nights that they have them. Oddly, the school in my town is a huge fan of having events on Sundays. My high school didn't do this, so it was a real shock to me!

And if God leads me to ever address this man on the issue, I am 100% sure that he will allow me to do it tactfully.

So what you're saying Sparrow is that I need to change this man's heart before we all get smited!!!? :P

ZHarner83, just something for you to think about.

Does the child see you not honoring his father's request?

Does the child now think that he doesn't have to honor his father's requests either?

What are you teaching the child that is more important than this?

P.S. I'm sorry to hear your meeting with the pastor was a waste of time but these things happen all too often these days.

 

[Obadiah]

I just had another thought regarding this problem. One of the problems I've seen in churches these days is that some of them like yours have their youth meetings during the regular Sunday morning worship service. This is something I personally have a problem with. Not only does this re-enforce in the minds of the parents that yes, indeed, the youth program really is nothing more than a babysitting service (which destroys their respect for the ministry as well as for you as the minister!) it also separates teenage kids from the rest of their family during a time of worship that I've always felt should be shared as a family, even if that is just the "family" of Christians if the teen doesn't have parents that attend church.

I conducted Sunday morning youth meetings too, but always before the service and the teens attended (strongly encouraged to attend) the regular worship service along with their parents, the younger kids, and everyone else. This not only gives them a foundation of regularly attending a corporate worship service with the whole body of Christ, but also the extra commitment to come early (as well as parents commitment to bring them early when needed) was an investment for them. When someone makes a personal investment in something, they also get a lot more out of it and it becomes more meaningful to them. There seems to be a fear today among these churches that none of the teens will go if it's done this way, but that wasn't the case for me at all. They learned commitment to God and they not only showed up, but it had meaningful life long effects on many of them.

I keep in touch with many of them who are now established adults, and they have broken the trend of teens leaving church after high school. They continued to go to church, and they remember their church (full worship service) experience as a positive thing that kept them going after they were no longer part of the youth group. They can't be expected to suddenly feel a belonging in the church when they are suddenly no longer of youth group age if the youth program has been all they ever learned about their church and they never became part of the rest of the congregation. A good percentage of the kids from my ministry are now volunteer church workers, leaders, full time pastors and teachers, and even missionaries as a result of their experience. So many of the adults too (not just parents) have told me how they enjoyed seeing all the teens coming in to worship with them, and what a joy it brought them to see see the teens as growing Christian brothers and sisters. But on the flip side, the vast majority of teenagers who are in programs that don't emphasize attending the full worship service with the whole congregation tend to quit going to church as soon as they are no longer under their parents control and no longer in the youth group. Most never return. Most of those who do return only do so because now they are raising kids of their own and actually see the church as a source of help in raising their own kids, not so much as a place to fellowship, honor God, and worship.

Anyway, just thought I might offer some food for thought on changing some things in your program that might be a benefit to the teens, even though I know it would probably involve convincing others in your church and that will take work.

 

[ZHarner83]

Very good feedback everyone.

ROFL. Sparrow sometimes I get confused!!!

Reba. I agree. The outlook that I was given was that this church, though runs an average of around 100 people per Sunday, seriously struggles to get volunteers. My wife and I are the youngest couple in the church at 30 years old. I do not believe that we have any adults younger than us actually. And the next age up is just under 40. So when we get someone that can help out, it becomes a priority to please them. (this is how goes, but I do not support it!)

Obadiah, that is solid. I agree. God is the reason we are here, there, or anywhere!

Allen, I understand what you mean. But we're not talking about the guy asking me to take out a bag of trash. We're talking about the guy wanting me to cut of the Holy Spirit. Is honor thy mother and father still in affect if your parents wishes are for you to cut out your time with God? I would hope that this would inspire the kids into understand that God is greater than their parents. This actually makes me wonder how many kids lost faith because their parents held them back and the kids honored it?

-The father is actually the adopted father of the children. The mother is their adopted mom as well. The kids came from a very hard life. They were clams when my wife and I first arrived in our positions at the church. Through worship, fellowship, and teaching the word of God, the kids developed a bond with us that was greater than with their adopted parents, even though we still promoted their parents to them greatly. We actually got the oldest daughter to start opening up to her new mom. This was done because we let God use us as we were intended to be used. The parents ended up getting jealous ( as the mom later admitted) because the kids would come to me with problems instead of her. She then stopped allowing them to come to any of my extra curricular events (bible study Tuesdays at my house, friday night fellowships, saturday night trips to the awakening).

Obadiah, on to your most recent statement.
The kids would come in for Sunday school. After that they would go up to the sanctuary for worship with the adults. They hated it. Our worship leader sings hymns that these kids do not understand. They love contemporary Christian music and they worship to it with everything they have. They weren't getting this downstairs. So one day one of my PK's told her dad that she would like to have a separate service for teens. And he said ok and the idea was brought to me.

So now on Sunday mornings, we do 2 worship songs for kids 6-11, dismiss them and do 3-4 contemporary songs for the 12-18 year olds. Then I give a message/sermon/lesson whatever you prefer to call it. I usually end it with giving them an opportunity to seek Christ or to pray over one another.

I agree with you 100% the kids should be up with their families to encourage a closeness in family with Christ. But unfortunately, the church we attend does not reach out to people under 40. (Hence why my wife and I are the youngest adults!)

I really hate to make my church sound bad lol! But we need to release the Holy Spirit here and stop locking him out!

 

[reba]

Sounds like you are where you are needed!

 

[ZHarner83]

I hope so. I've been asking God to show me if this is where I am supposed to be or not. I'm on stand by.

 

[Sparkey]

ROFL. Sparrow sometimes I get confused!

If another witness counts (other than what you know and is given to you by the Holy Spirit, and it's okay to look to those whom you are given and given unto, even the Body of Christ) you have the confirmation whispered to me by the Holy Spirit; as I read your testimony my amen is heard. We know something that not many know. We, meaning Christians. It is the Work of the Holy Spirit to jointly fit us together and He does so on a very intimate basis and in accordance with the Mind of Christ we all share. I'm singing to the choir and trying to quote Scripture that you may very well be more familiar than I am, but there it is.

:amen

Want a story to go along with it? I gots many. But take care, I will speak if asked. This one is called, "It is the Lord! It is the Lord!"

 

[Obadiah]

I agree with you 100% the kids should be up with their families to encourage a closeness in family with Christ. But unfortunately, the church we attend does not reach out to people under 40. (Hence why my wife and I are the youngest adults!)

Yeah, seems it's not just your decision, but I still hold that it's a bad idea and, unfortunately it will eventually kill your church. There are many examples and statistics that show this and it seems your church is becoming one of the examples too, despite your good efforts. How many young adults in the 18 to 30 year old range did you say attend the regular worship service under the way things are being done now? What reason would they have to return at age 40, after being away for over half their lives? How will that affect your congregation 20 years from now?

The pastor needs to understand that he needs to minister to all of his congregation during the worship service, not just the group he prefers. And the teenagers need to learn that they can sing the hymns and participate in the rest of worship right along with the adults. They CAN do that even if they don't like it at first. It takes time, but after a while those hymns and other parts of worship will have meaning for them, and they will eventually like it (if the pastor and the rest of the congregation will do their part as well). I've seen this happen lots of times. We even had several teenagers in the choir (singing the traditional hymns with a traditional organ accompaniment!) and they enjoyed it and made it a priority in their lives!

Of course, you're right too, the pastor has to make the worship service meaningful for younger people as well instead of just focusing on the older ones and solving the problem of not relating to the younger ones by removing them. After years of attending the regular worship service, during youth group meeting song time when the kids I worked with could request singing any songs they wanted, sometimes they would even request some of the hymns because spending time worshiping with the whole congregation gave those hymns meaning and good memories for them. Those good memories are the reason they kept in the faith and kept attending church after they were past youth group age and out from under their parents control. If that's an important issue for your adult congregation members and pastor (which, to be honest, it sadly sounds as with many churches, it might not be truly very important to them), then the teens need to be trained to do that now.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it." (Proverbs 22:6, NKJV)

So do we train them to only worship at youth group, which won't be an option when they are suddenly adults out on their own and the rest of the world is still pulling at them? Or do we train them to enjoy and want to go to the regular worship service, which WILL be available to them when they become adults, so that they have a reasonable and workable way to "not (forsake) the assembling of ourselves together..." (Heb 10:25a NKJV) I think your pastor needs to do some thinking and praying about all of this too and ask God if He wants the younger people to worship together with the rest of the body of Christ and continue to do so in this church when they are adults.

 

[Sparkey]

So do we train them to only worship at youth group, which won't be an option [soon]...

But it is an option now. And the hope is that as they grow some will also put their hand to the plow as they are called and led by the Lord. The thing that is crucial is that this working, this fitting of one to another, is done by the Holy Spirit. God hears prayers.