Putting on the Mind of Christ - (Which stage most applies to you now?)

[eddif]

As a jerk from Mississippi I do not know that I am smart enouth to explain what I am about to say.

We can be in Christ and have Christ in us. I do not think it is the same thing.

We have Christ on us in baptism.

We have Christ in us when he enters us after knocking at the door.

I think we have the mind of Christ in us rather than on us. Maybe it is a picky thought, but then doctrine does that to us. Discussing all this is quite a trip, and I hope this point being brought up is in the right spirit. You know the Holy Spirit and not just a spirit (LOL).

eddif

 

[Adullam]

One person cannot have the mind of Christ...it is a plural "we" thing. It is like trying to have unity all by yourself. ;)

So it appears that this book is just one more self-help book that is meant to guide the individualistic public astray and make some money in the process.

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[eddif]

Revelation 3:21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I can always be wrong, but it seems to be individual in some cases. We form the corporate body of Christ after we become individual living stones.

I will look at your scripture more.

eddif

 

[eddif]

One person cannot have the mind of Christ...it is a plural "we" thing. It is like trying to have unity all by yourself. ;)

So it appears that this book is just one more self-help book that is meant to guide the individualistic public astray and make some money in the process.

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I think you need
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. KJV

I do tend to agree with you, that the natural man can not know what is going on regarding spiritual things. Eastern religion tends to look for the God that is within. Unless you are born again, God is not inside fallen man.

eddif

 

[Comprehender]

As indeed it is impossible to find any perfect publication.

For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (1 Corinthians 1:19 NIV)​

That's great advice. Keep on getting your hands dirty, keep on thinking and you will at least be rewarded with small gems. 'Wrong thinking' is not 'sinful thinking' as someone else said. Thinking is what that big brain is for. Sometimes you will get it wrong but I get the distinct impression that most of the time you will get it right Comprehender. Do let me know if you find the diamond.

Thanks, Aardvark.
Ironically, the way we think about sin, is a sin, IMO.
We make it a crime to make mistakes, when how else are we going to learn?

I'm not much into jewelry, but I'll let you know if I find the diamond - more than likely it's way way up in the sky & the fun is not in achieving it, but dreaming of & striving for it.

 

[Comprehender]

As a jerk from Mississippi I do not know that I am smart enouth to explain what I am about to say.

We can be in Christ and have Christ in us. I do not think it is the same thing.

We have Christ on us in baptism.

We have Christ in us when he enters us after knocking at the door.

I think we have the mind of Christ in us rather than on us. Maybe it is a picky thought, but then doctrine does that to us. Discussing all this is quite a trip, and I hope this point being brought up is in the right spirit. You know the Holy Spirit and not just a spirit (LOL).

eddif

Thank you, Eddif.
I especially like how you hope this is brought up in the right spirit.
Me too.

Good point - that "Putting on the mind of Christ" sounds a little like putting on a mask or putting on a show. It is probably better worded to say, "Developing the mind of Christ."

 

[Comprehender]

One person cannot have the mind of Christ...it is a plural "we" thing. It is like trying to have unity all by yourself. ;)

So it appears that this book is just one more self-help book that is meant to guide the individualistic public astray and make some money in the process.

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I think I understand what you mean - as far as working together as a community.
The foot doesn't say it doesn't need the head, etc. Each part is both individually unique and part of the whole body of Christ.

William James wrote that "Spirituality is much broader [than religion], it is the attempt to be in harmony with an unseen order of things."

 

[Aardverk]

We make it a crime to make mistakes, when how else are we going to learn?

Very few consider it a sin to be wrong. That must be something they were told; they obviously have no experience of thinking for themselves :halo

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wonder about this, Jethro.
First, I thought I was good - you know, kids think that.
Then I thought I was bad - because many told me I was.
Then I was told I was a child of God & that I was good.

Emboldened part: Only true if you've had a Luke 18:9-14 experience.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 18:9-14&version=NIV1984

Then I was told that there was no good or evil - but "thinking makes it so."

I hope you don't believe this now.

Actually it was the reality of evil that started my journey to God that ultimately culminated in me being born anew by the Spirit of God (and being born into his family becoming a child of God now in his nurture and care and instruction). I could plainly see evil was very real as evidenced by what it did, and was not relative to any man's definition or perception of it. Mankind was indeed very evil. And I didn't need CNN or the morning newspaper to help me see it.

But maybe you're right - that GOoDness comes from God - not us.
Maybe like Moses discovered, we're nothing - God is responsible for everything.

...and the longer I'm in Christ the more I know how utterly and completely true this is. Pride simply has no place whatsoever in the presence of God. All boasting is removed when standing in the presence of God who is completely and totally holy through and through, not just tries to be holy and is really good at it, but the very essence and substance of holy.

I don't know what I think about forgiveness.
I'm so used to my upbringing & I acknowledge the need for metaphors - to resonate & feel the spirit.
But I don't believe God requires us to "earn" forgiveness - we require it of ourselves.

I don't believe we 'earn' forgiveness either. It is a free gift. We don't earn free gifts, but we do need to humbly acknowledge that we need it. Pride in our own self sufficiencies effectively blocks out the free gift of God's forgiveness. Pride is the staircase to hell, that place utterly and completely devoid of all things God. Pride is THE sin of mankind.

When I've screwed up & feel bad about it, like just yesterday, I found myself praying for forgiveness - but I think it was more for me - so I can "give" myself to go "for"ward.

Yes, a guilty conscience is very burdensome. God knows this and has graciously provided a way to be free of life destroying guilt. But it is also very true that one must be cleansed of sin guilt to be in the kingdom of God where sin and the slavery of sin can not dwell. Forgiveness is not just about us.

I agree that this life is probably tiny compared to eternity.
My friend who had a Near Death Experience had always been so stressed about any mistakes she made, but during her spiritual experience, she realized that it wasn't a big deal.

I only can understand this in regard to the simple frustrations of life...choosing the wrong job or spouse, for the wrong reason, but definitely not in regard to things that are very real and hurt other people. I don't think anyone would think fits of rage where things are smashed and people are injured, or marriages broke up by infidelity are things creatures in heaven are smiling about as the funny little things in life. You seem fair and rational, so I think you would agree with me if you thought about it.

Spirits who loved her & looked after her kindof smiled regarding her freaking out about her mistakes...

'Spirits who loved & looked after her'? Smacks of new ageism.

Somehow in the new age concept of heavenly beings, they are always kind and incapable of identifying sin, and are here to stroke our egos.

- like a loving mother would smile when her child starts throwing a fit about getting dressed to go have fun. She cares about her child, understands, has compassion & wants the best for her child, but also realizes that her child may be short-sighted & will be happier soon.

Actually somewhat true in regard to how God understands his children, but that doesn't mean he doesn't judge wrong-doing. Every good parent does. And according to the level of responsibility the child has achieved. The less short-sighted a person is, the greater God's accountability for wrong-doing. My parents used to laugh about the time I decided to fill my pants at my infant baptism. I'm pretty sure I can't get away with that now without some serious repercussions.

I think if we hate any part of ourselves, it's like trying to fight fire with fire.
Maybe the way to lose our pride (carnal nature) is to be humble & teachable - & to be dedicated to searching for & pursuing the highest GOoD, no matter what.

I disagree because if you do not truly hate what you do that is evil and hurts you and other people you can not have a dedicated relationship with God. Dedication and pursuit of God means hating evil and seeking out his good:

Proverbs 8:13
To fear the LORD is to hate evil...;

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD (hating evil) is the beginning of knowledge...

(NIV1984)

If a person never gets to stage one in the journey to the knowledge of God and what he is all about they will certainly never get to any other stage. The person who thinks they have come to know God, but has bypassed the very first step to God, is deceived. And I think there are plenty of voices in ourselves and in the world to help us think we can get to God without this first step.

Patience with offensive people is a divine trait, not a human one. That's why we need God's Spirit to come into us from outside of us (through the forgiveness of sin) to be what God is by nature, but which we are not.

Maybe.

Only God can help a person see how utterly true what I said is. God is the only one who can break the pride down in any one of us by allowing circumstances and situations that show how incapable of being like him we are, and how enslaved we are to our own defensive mechanisms without his Spirit inside of us.

Yeah - except the word, "sin" has so much baggage attached to it.

I guess it's all in what one thinks the implications of that baggage are. If that baggage means I'm not good by nature and my pride can't accept that, then, yes, it's very ugly and burdensome baggage that I'd like to just go away and deny that I have. But for the humble person it is baggage that can be honestly and effectively dealt with and disposed of in the right way and which doesn't have to be dragged around everywhere they go, and which ends up hurting and dragging other people down.

God created us to sin - it's not a crime.

Actually it is a crime. A crime that demands justice. God is not a good God if he has no justice concerning how we humans are so painfully hurtful to one another.

Making it a crime is a sin - ironically.

No. Calling sin wrong and criminal is completely accurate and honest. By nature we do very real criminal things to each other. It's not wrong to identify those hurtful things we do as criminal and worthy of judgment. The real crime is in denying what we do to each other is wrong or criminal. That's an injustice. God is very interested in justice. That truth should make all of us fearful and humble...but also comforted.

The shame we compile causes more thinking that harms us &/or others.
So many paradoxes...

But God has made such a gracious way to get rid of the shame that hinders and hurts and robs us and others of life. The answer is not to redefine sin and it's shame. That's just going into denial and sweeping it under the proverbial carpet. It still leaves a lump in the carpet no matter how out of sight we think it is. The answer is to acknowledge the reality of it and do away with it in an honest and honorable way--the way God has provided to do that.

 

[Comprehender]

Very few consider it a sin to be wrong. That must be something they were told; they obviously have no experience of thinking for themselves :halo

Ah... I think you're wrong, but it's no sin!
I don't think it's so much about experience... insanity is doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results.
It's more about interpretation.

 

[Comprehender]

Emboldened part: Only true if you've had a Luke 18:9-14 experience.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2018:9-14&version=NIV1984

Thanks for this good reminder of humility, Jethro.

I hope you don't believe this now.

Actually it was the reality of evil that started my journey to God that ultimately culminated in me being born anew by the Spirit of God (and being born into his family becoming a child of God now in his nurture and care and instruction). I could plainly see evil was very real as evidenced by what it did, and was not relative to any man's definition or perception of it. Mankind was indeed very evil. And I didn't need CNN or the morning newspaper to help me see it.

No doubt there is evil outside of us, as there is good.
Yet, often times how I respond to both, depends on how I interpret it.
Like the parable you quoted in Luke 18... Jesus was trying to teach us that condemning others is like condemning ourselves because we are all human! If I were born & lived under your circumstances (or another's), I'd likely act similarly. We each have potential for good & evil. God created both good & evil, so we could appreciate, & progress spiritually. In the big picture, it's all GOoD - because of this spiritual progress, but in the process, we must discern between what is best (most loving for us & others) & what isn't.
Is that clear as mud?
Paradoxes galore!

...and the longer I'm in Christ the more I know how utterly and completely true this is. Pride simply has no place whatsoever in the presence of God. All boasting is removed when standing in the presence of God who is completely and totally holy through and through, not just tries to be holy and is really good at it, but the very essence and substance of holy.

Beautifully put!

I don't believe we 'earn' forgiveness either. It is a free gift. We don't earn free gifts, but we do need to humbly acknowledge that we need it. Pride in our own self sufficiencies effectively blocks out the free gift of God's forgiveness. Pride is the staircase to hell, that place utterly and completely devoid of all things God. Pride is THE sin of mankind.

I think so too.
I think pride is what Jesus was referring to when he said, "He that findeth his life (pride) shall lose it (spiritual life): & he that loseth his life (pride) for my sake shall find it (spiritual life)." -Matt 10:39

Yes, a guilty conscience is very burdensome. God knows this and has graciously provided a way to be free of life destroying guilt. But it is also very true that one must be cleansed of sin guilt to be in the kingdom of God where sin and the slavery of sin can not dwell. Forgiveness is not just about us.

What do you mean by "forgiveness is not just about us"?
Do you mean that if we don't forgive, we affect others too?

I only can understand this in regard to the simple frustrations of life...choosing the wrong job or spouse, for the wrong reason, but definitely not in regard to things that are very real and hurt other people. I don't think anyone would think fits of rage where things are smashed and people are injured, or marriages broke up by infidelity are things creatures in heaven are smiling about as the funny little things in life. You seem fair and rational, so I think you would agree with me if you thought about it.

Yes, I do agree, I think.
I don't know, Jethro - I'm still figuring it out.
My marriage has been through the ringer. It's not easy.
I think every action has a reaction, including spiritual energy.
So, although some things are no big deal, even though we stress about them...
Some things are a big deal & will have a significant ripple effect for generations.

'Spirits who loved & looked after her'? Smacks of new ageism.
Somehow in the new age concept of heavenly beings, they are always kind and incapable of identifying sin, and are here to stroke our egos.

Maybe... but what about Saint Paul or all of the other spirit-guides many Christians adore?
The NewAge that encourages giving up basic values (ie loving others/esp family as self) is nonsense, IMO. Yet, NewAge that is in line with the heart of Christ, is beautiful & shouldn't be discarded just because they use different terminology.

BTW... You know Mother Teresa's name is not really Teresa, but she adopted Teresa's name, & Teresa is one of the people who helped realize this spiritual journey of putting on the mind of Christ.

Actually somewhat true in regard to how God understands his children, but that doesn't mean he doesn't judge wrong-doing. Every good parent does. And according to the level of responsibility the child has achieved. The less short-sighted a person is, the greater God's accountability for wrong-doing. My parents used to laugh about the time I decided to fill my pants at my infant baptism. I'm pretty sure I can't get away with that now without some serious repercussions.

Probably not!
I agree that "where much is given, much is required."

I disagree because if you do not truly hate what you do that is evil and hurts you and other people you can not have a dedicated relationship with God. Dedication and pursuit of God means hating evil and seeking out his good:

Proverbs 8:13
To fear the LORD is to hate evil...;

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD (hating evil) is the beginning of knowledge...

(NIV1984)

If a person never gets to stage one in the journey to the knowledge of God and what he is all about they will certainly never get to any other stage. The person who thinks they have come to know God, but has bypassed the very first step to God, is deceived. And I think there are plenty of voices in ourselves and in the world to help us think we can get to God without this first step.

But God is love, not fear. -1John 4:8
"Perfect love casteth out fear."

Only God can help a person see how utterly true what I said is. God is the only one who can break the pride down in any one of us by allowing circumstances and situations that show how incapable of being like him we are, and how enslaved we are to our own defensive mechanisms without his Spirit inside of us.

Jethro, honestly, I'm kindof jealous of others who have more faith.
I don't know what or who to trust in anymore.
Maybe I'm being too logical & less spiritual.

I guess it's all in what one thinks the implications of that baggage are. If that baggage means I'm not good by nature and my pride can't accept that, then, yes, it's very ugly and burdensome baggage that I'd like to just go away and deny that I have. But for the humble person it is baggage that can be honestly and effectively dealt with and disposed of in the right way and which doesn't have to be dragged around everywhere they go, and which ends up hurting and dragging other people down.

Yet, we need healthy self esteem to love ourselves well & then be more efficient & genuine in loving others.

Actually it is a crime. A crime that demands justice. God is not a good God if he has no justice concerning how we humans are so painfully hurtful to one another.

God loves, God is love.
We are our own condemners - at least in life & probably after life, of what I hear.

No. Calling sin wrong and criminal is completely accurate and honest. By nature we do very real criminal things to each other. It's not wrong to identify those hurtful things we do as criminal and worthy of judgment. The real crime is in denying what we do to each other is wrong or criminal. That's an injustice. God is very interested in justice. That truth should make all of us fearful and humble...but also comforted.

I think it's important to distinguish between "clean pain/sin" & "dirty pain/sin"... or to distinguish between guilt & extra unnecessary shame.
God gave us consciouses - the light of Christ - so we have a sense of what is good & what isn't.
But sometimes we even feel ashamed for what is good...
IE: If you were taught that sex is bad (because they didn't want you having forinication)... but then you get married & still feel sex is bad, that's unhealthy, unnecessary shame.

But God has made such a gracious way to get rid of the shame that hinders and hurts and robs us and others of life. The answer is not to redefine sin and it's shame. That's just going into denial and sweeping it under the proverbial carpet. It still leaves a lump in the carpet no matter how out of sight we think it is. The answer is to acknowledge the reality of it and do away with it in an honest and honorable way--the way God has provided to do that.

And how is that, exactly?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We each have potential for good & evil. God created both good & evil, so we could appreciate, & progress spiritually. In the big picture, it's all GOoD - because of this spiritual progress, but in the process, we must discern between what is best (most loving for us & others) & what isn't.
Is that clear as mud?
Paradoxes galore!

When you understand 'evil' and 'good' as not what we do, but who we are, then you can see how we're not 'some good' and 'some bad' and so somehow we have something 'good' to offer God in our natural selves.

Before being born again by the Spirit, our struggle is with righteousness, because our fundamental nature before being born again is evil, not good. Doing good is what is difficult because it chaffs against what we are by nature--evil. Doing evil is easy, and comfortable, and satisfying. The natural man relies on it to survive in this world.

But when we get born again we get a new nature, the righteous nature of God himself that longs to be what it is--good. Now our struggle is with evil. Now evil is the thing we struggle with and are uncomfortable and dissatisfied with. This is the mind of Christ, the mind controlled by the Spirit. We long for righteousness and hate evil, and because that's true we're growing more and more righteous in what we do and say as our faith in God's provision to protect us and care for us in this life grows. People who have faith in God don't have to resort to the selfish, sinful defensive mechanisms called 'sin' to survive.

 

[Comprehender]

When you understand 'evil' and 'good' as not what we do, but who we are, then you can see how we're not 'some good' and 'some bad' and so somehow we have something 'good' to offer God in our natural selves.

I'm not sure if I understand you, so let me know one way or the other.
Who are we?
My guess is you don't believe we're our bodies that regenerate cells every so many years & that will inevitably someday die.
So, who are we?
Do you believe we're children of Satan/Evil or children of God/Good - or a mix?

As a parent, when my kids screw up, I don't say, "Bad girl" - or "Bad boy!"
I explain to them how & why what they did wasn't right & sometimes if they get extra upset & think I don't like them anymore, I tell them, "God & I always love you - you are good because you're a child of God, but sometimes what you do I don't like."
There's a difference between who we are & what we do.
Although, they affect each other... "Who we are is what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is a habit." -Aristotle

Before being born again by the Spirit, our struggle is with righteousness, because our fundamental nature before being born again is evil, not good.

What do you mean exactly by being "born again"?
To me, being born again is not literal, of course, but it's spiritual - which begins with a new perspective (gospel = good news).

Doing good is what is difficult because it chaffs against what we are by nature--evil.

Again - we are not by nature, evil. That's a self-fulfilling harmful lie from the adversary.

Doing evil is easy, and comfortable, and satisfying. The natural man relies on it to survive in this world.

What is evil?
My defintion of evil is still evolving, as is my definition of good & other concepts.
But as it is, I think evil is when we actively deny truth, often because it's too uncomfortable. Of course, we can't acknowledge all truth (that's God) - but evil is when we go out of our way to deny or avoid some truth particularly relevant to us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe we're children of Satan/Evil or children of God/Good - or a mix?

Never a mix. You either belong to God, or you belong to the enemy of God.

As accountable adults we have to purposely make peace with God and be adopted into his family. Until we do that we remain enemies of God.

As a parent, when my kids screw up, I don't say, "Bad girl" - or "Bad boy!"
I explain to them how & why what they did wasn't right & sometimes if they get extra upset & think I don't like them anymore, I tell them, "God & I always love you...

Just because God loves us all doesn't mean we aren't bad by nature. God's love doesn't mean we can't possibly be bad by nature. That's an illogical conclusion to come to.

- you are good because you're a child of God, but sometimes what you do I don't like."

It would be more accurate to see it as, "you are a child of God as far as having been created by him, and in his image, but that image has been marred and must be restored; the wrong doing being the damage done to the image of God we were created in".

There's a difference between who we are & what we do.

And that is certainly true to some extent. We don't always do the good we want to, nor do we always do the bad we want to do. But it is what we are characterized by that determines who we really are. Man, by nature, is not characterized by good.

Although, they affect each other... "Who we are is what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is a habit." -Aristotle

Which is pretty much what I just said. The hard truth is, though, that without being restored to God through the forgiveness of sins we will continue to be characterized by the deeds of the flesh (jealousy, envy, pride, hatred, lust, etc.), not the excellence of God's character.

What do you mean exactly by being "born again"?

It means having a new life, a new 'spirit' birthed in you by God. A new life birthed in your body different than the life birthed in you when you were born from the womb. That new life, that new spirit, being the Spirit of God himself who then dwells inside of you where he did not before, and who puts to death the power of sin to hold you in bondage to the desires of the flesh. No one is born a new creation. You must be born 'again' to have that different Spirit placed inside of you. A Spirit that is not bound to the desires of the flesh.

To me, being born again is not literal, of course, but it's spiritual

It's literal in that the spirit of a man, and the Spirit of God are very real and literal things.

- which begins with a new perspective (gospel = good news).

It's much more than just a new perspective. It's literally having your sins forgiven through the blood of Christ where there was no forgiveness available before. That's why it is 'good news'.

"...36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ..." (Acts 10:36 NIV)

38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39 NIV)

Without Christ, man stands utterly condemned without remedy by what he does and thinks, and which he ultimately can not stop doing.

Again - we are not by nature, evil. That's a self-fulfilling harmful lie from the adversary.

You're certainly entitled to your own beliefs, but this is not what the Bible says, nor what we see as being true in the world.

What is evil?

Doing harm to others...a direct result of being in bondage to the demands of flesh bodies removed from the power and presence of God's love.

My defintion of evil is still evolving, as is my definition of good & other concepts.

Not fulfilling the law of God is evil (sin). By nature we are law breakers, hurting and harming people in the pursuit of our own well being. The essence of the law is 'love your neighbor as yourself'. To not keep the law is to not love your neighbor.

"10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10 NIV)


Paul describes the evil deeds of the flesh as these:

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 NIV)

...and describes the righteous deeds of the Spirit of God this way:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22-23 NIV)

The Bible doesn't leave us guessing what is evil and what is good. And it all comes down to how we treat other people.

But as it is, I think evil is when we actively deny truth, often because it's too uncomfortable.

Well, it's definitely evil to deny the truth about our sin as defined above. Denial is really just lying. Jesus said lying is the native language of the devil and those who belong to him.

Of course, we can't acknowledge all truth (that's God) - but evil is when we go out of our way to deny or avoid some truth particularly relevant to us.

...like how we are supposed to treat other people. By nature, we do not treat people the way God says we are supposed to treat them. We hold grudges and dole out our love and favor, and trample on people's well being according to our own selfish interests. God does not do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I stumbled on to this entirely by accident the other day:

http://youtu.be/xM5ILOsHLnw

Is this in line with what you believe? I recognize some of the phrases you have used like "Christ consciousness" and it being in all of us without exception.

 

[Aardverk]

I stumbled on to this entirely by accident the other day:
http://youtu.be/xM5ILOsHLnw
Is this in line with what you believe? I recognize some of the phrases you have used like "Christ consciousness" and it being in all of us without exception.

Thanks for that reference Jethro

Obviously the Youtube video is terribly biased against Oprah but what she says makes a great deal of sense. I don't agree with everything she said but it ties in pretty well with my beliefs. Jesus was exceptional and an example to us all.

The alternative, illustrated by the quotes interleaved with the video, is a blind acceptance of whatever MAN has written in the Bible and a blind acceptance of the popular interpretations of the Bible by MAN. The Bible often cannot be read literally and needs to be interpreted. We interpret it in many different ways - ergo, "there are many ways to God" as Oprah said.

We all know that the Bible is contradictory and often cryptic which makes the message unclear. We all know that there are thousands of copying and translation errors. We all know that there was much disagreement about what would be included in the Bible. We all know that many people feel that the pure message of Jesus has been corrupted by Paul, and others, yet many people try to treat it as a precise manual for how to live their lives. Unfortunately it is not as simple as that and, I believe, that is the message that Oprah was trying to get over. It is not a perfectly clear message because the person who prepared that video was trying to discredit her.

There is a spectrum of believers spread out from absolutely rigid Bible adherents through to people with vague beliefs in God. You seem to be up one end of that spectrum and you very clearly believe that makes you a better Christian. People somewhere else on the spectrum probably do not agree with you Jethro. What most of us have in common is that we FEEL that we know the mind of Christ. Some of us are quite obviously wrong but none of us can tell the others that they are wrong because it is simply a matter of belief. I think it best just to accept that there are many ways to God and, in the mean time, live our lives following Jesus's example as best we can. Love!

 

[eddif]

The Bible often cannot be read literally and needs to be interpreted. We interpret it in many different ways - ergo, "there are many ways to God" as Oprah said.

We all know that the Bible is contradictory and often cryptic which makes the message unclear.

Well as a person from Mississippi there is probably not much intelligence expected from me.

I tend to believe the word of God is divided and applied to different situations and not interpreted. The problem is that we often do not want to hear what is said about some of our situations of life.

Jesus spoke in cryptic language called parables. The purpose of parables was to keep some people from hearing. Parables were effective enough that the disciples had to seek explanation themselves. So that seeing / hearing led to no understanding except with help from Jesus.

IMHO feelings get you in trouble. IMHO the 12 pair of cranial nerves are about the human condition, but the 12 gates to the New Jerusalem are about the belief God wants to give entrance to His Kingdom. This entrance requires removing part of our feelings, and replacing them with faith.

I hope I was cryptic enough.. LOL.

eddif

 

[Comprehender]

Never a mix. You either belong to God, or you belong to the enemy of God.

All things are spiritual to God... God is the Creator of ALL.

As accountable adults we have to purposely make peace with God and be adopted into his family. Until we do that we remain enemies of God.

I agree... and God is experienced within, as Jesus taught - Luke 17:21

Just because God loves us all doesn't mean we aren't bad by nature. God's love doesn't mean we can't possibly be bad by nature. That's an illogical conclusion to come to.

What if God (from a mathematical opposites kind of way) is both good & evil?
Ultimately... God is good, because, IMO, the goal is good, but getting there, involves a lot of stumbling around - by all of us - & that's what God intended.

It would be more accurate to see it as, "you are a child of God as far as having been created by him, and in his image, but that image has been marred and must be restored; the wrong doing being the damage done to the image of God we were created in".

Maybe what redemption means... this restoration?

And that is certainly true to some extent. We don't always do the good we want to, nor do we always do the bad we want to do. But it is what we are characterized by that determines who we really are. Man, by nature, is not characterized by good.

When a baby is born - isn't he or she normally characterized as good?

Which is pretty much what I just said. The hard truth is, though, that without being restored to God through the forgiveness of sins we will continue to be characterized by the deeds of the flesh (jealousy, envy, pride, hatred, lust, etc.), not the excellence of God's character.

But we will never be completely without sin!
To our dying days, we will be imperfect.
And I don't believe in a scapegoat of human sacrifice that God needs, to correct what God Him/Herself created (our imperfection).

It means having a new life, a new 'spirit' birthed in you by God. A new life birthed in your body different than the life birthed in you when you were born from the womb. That new life, that new spirit, being the Spirit of God himself who then dwells inside of you where he did not before, and who puts to death the power of sin to hold you in bondage to the desires of the flesh. No one is born a new creation. You must be born 'again' to have that different Spirit placed inside of you. A Spirit that is not bound to the desires of the flesh.

Do you believe in being born again only once... or over & over, throughout one's life (like never ending spiritual rebirths)?

It's literal in that the spirit of a man, and the Spirit of God are very real and literal things.

Yeah, if you see subtle, spiritual things as literal.
But most people when they define birth, they consider when we were "born of water" from our mothers' amniotic fluid - kind of birth.

It's much more than just a new perspective. It's literally having your sins forgiven through the blood of Christ where there was no forgiveness available before. That's why it is 'good news'.

Why believe in a scapegoat of human sacrifice, when God created us to be imperfect?

Without Christ, man stands utterly condemned without remedy by what he does and thinks, and which he ultimately can not stop doing.

Yes... but who is Christ?
Christ is not Jesus' last name, but what he became & told us to become as well.
This is "putting on the mind of Christ."

You're certainly entitled to your own beliefs, but this is not what the Bible says, nor what we see as being true in the world.

Be careful what you worship - if you worship people & the words of them (including authors of the bible), than your god will fail you. Only God (who is love/truth/light) will not fail. God is GoOD... God is creation, which we are.

Doing harm to others...a direct result of being in bondage to the demands of flesh bodies removed from the power and presence of God's love.

Agreed.
And when we harm others, we harm ourselves, even at that moment, if we feel the hatred, or ignorance or whatever that causes the harm - we feel it within us.

Not fulfilling the law of God is evil (sin). By nature we are law breakers, hurting and harming people in the pursuit of our own well being. The essence of the law is 'love your neighbor as yourself'. To not keep the law is to not love your neighbor.

I agree. But I don't think the fact that we break laws & hurt ourselves & others means that we are evil. It just means we "don't know what we do."

The Bible doesn't leave us guessing what is evil and what is good. And it all comes down to how we treat other people.

Although, I would argue that the bible is ambigous & conflicting in several cases... IE: genocide in the name of God after God through Moses just told them, "thou shalt not kill"???
But I do think it comes down to how we treat others & ourselves.

Well, it's definitely evil to deny the truth about our sin as defined above. Denial is really just lying. Jesus said lying is the native language of the devil and those who belong to him.

Agreed.
And it's tough to be really honest - even with ourselves!

...like how we are supposed to treat other people. By nature, we do not treat people the way God says we are supposed to treat them. We hold grudges and dole out our love and favor, and trample on people's well being according to our own selfish interests. God does not do that.

Yes, this is where psychology can be helpful, IMO.
If you TRY to resist a thought... IE, I say, "Don't think of a pink elephant!" Then you can't help but think of a pink elephant. We need to learn to confront (not deny) our own feelings/desires/fears, without impulsively acting on them.