Putting Prayer to the Test

[anthony123]

I wonder if this has ever been done. If not, I think it would be awesome if a Christian interest group would fund a study.

For example, why not test the power of prayer amongst a group of 200 cancer patients in the same stage/age group/cancer type. 100 atheists and 100 protestant Christians. The hypothesis being that because of the power of prayer the group of 100 Christians will have a much higher cancer remission rate than that of the 100 atheists.

I think this would be an awesome way to scientifically prove the Supernatural and that the God of the Bible must exist.

Someone must have attempted this? If not, why not? Christians should have nothing to fear.

 

[Rick W]

And if God doesn't want to participate in the survey then what?

I just get a creepy feeling about testing God. There's something about it that doesn't fit somehow.

 

[ProphetMark]

It has been done. Richard Dawkins mentions it in "The God Delusion". More of the people who WEREN'T prayed for recovered.

 

[anthony123]

That's interesting. I also searched google immediately after posting and found that all studies of prayer show no effect from prayer.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health ... or_health/

So, based on empirically tested evidence, prayer does not work. This doesn't seem correct. Why would God allow as many Christians to die from Cancer as non-Christians. Especially, if the Christians prayed for remission?

Why should I continue praying at all?

 

[tim-from-pa]

I guess whether prayer works or not depends on who you ask.

Statistics for prayer affecting healing:

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

And those who say it DOES NOT work:

http://www.edifyingspectacle.org/archiv ... t_heal.php

Both sides "explain away" the other to justify their own view.

I rather pray and believe in God. Even if He was a delusion, it provides more comfort before I die, rot and perish forever.

If an atheist is right, then he will also die, rot and perish forever.

If an atheist argues that believing in God limits his brief life on earth with rules and regulations, then he is free to believe that, but should not criticize people who feel the opposite--- but rather open his mind beyond his world into understanding that his shoe does not fit some other people, and should be respectful of that.

I can't get more neutral than that.

 

[destiny]

I have found that just being in close relationship with the Lord puts me in His will for my life and the lives I am to touch through Him. He sets up the appointments, not me.

 

[gralanlinae]

It is my experience that prayer to get results usually leaves me feeling barren and somewhat alienated. I believe that God's peace will guard my heart, if I'm faithful to submit all and be thankful.

In terms of questioning the effectiveness of prayer with unbelievers, I personally refuse to allow them to define vocabulary, terms of discussion, methods, etc. Honest discussion is always possible, often hard to establish.

JB Phillips' book

Your God Is Too Small

and CS Lewis' essay

The Eternal Weight of Glory

have been useful reads for my wife and I.

 

[tim-from-pa]

In terms of questioning the effectiveness of prayer with unbelievers, I personally refuse to allow them to define vocabulary, terms of discussion, methods, etc. Honest discussion is always possible, often hard to establish.

So true. I found that the unbelievers want God to answer or do something on their terms which BTW is an egocentric point of view, sort of like the ancients that believed the whole universe orbited around them. But the unbelievers are totally blinded to their stance and fail to realize it. The bottom line: God is the boss. So what is not answered according to some may actually be the groundwork for something better in the future because God is so much bigger than answering the here-and-now like a big "go-for" boy.

 

[Godfrey]

“Other things are proved not simply by experience but by those artificially contrived experiences which we call experiments. Could this be done about prayer? I will pass over the objection that no Christian could take part in such a project, because he has been forbidden it: ‘You must not try experiments on God, your Master.’ Forbidden or not, is the thing even possible?

“I have seen it suggested that a team of people – the more the better – should agree to pray as hard as they knew how, over a period of six weeks, for all the patients in Hospital A and none in Hospital B. Then you would tot up the results and see if A had more cures and fewer deaths. And I suppose you would repeat the experiment at various times and places so as to eliminate the influence of irrelevant factors.

“The trouble is that I do not see how any real prayer could go on under such conditions. ‘Words without thoughts to heaven never go,’ says the King in Hamlet. Simply to say prayers is not to pray: otherwise a team of properly trained parrots would serve as well as men for our experiment. You cannot pray for the recovery of the sick unless the end you have in view is their recovery. But you can have no motive for desiring the recovery of all the patients in one hospital and none in the other. You are not doing it in order that suffering should be relieved; you are doing it to find out what happens. The real purpose and the nominal purpose of your prayers are at variance. In other words, whatever your tongue and teeth and knees may do, you are not praying. The experiment demands an impossibility.â€
- C S Lewis, The Efficacy Of Prayer

Not to mention that the idea, which is often put forward, of a control group for whom no-one is praying is fallacious. You may not be praying for them, but how do you know no-one else is?

 

[CrimsonPride]

God answers all prayers, just cause the answer is a no doesnt mean he didnt answer it. people who try testing prayer are very ignorant for trying it, and it shows the lack of knowledge of the Bible. Sorry for being so blunt about it but sometimes its easier that way

 

[anthony123]

God answers all prayers, just cause the answer is a no doesnt mean he didnt answer it. people who try testing prayer are very ignorant for trying it, and it shows the lack of knowledge of the Bible. Sorry for being so blunt about it but sometimes its easier that way

Of course then you would never know if he did answer prayer. Isn't that correct CrimsonPride? Sounds like willful ignorance to me.

 

[CrimsonPride]

God answers all prayers, just cause the answer is a no doesnt mean he didnt answer it. people who try testing prayer are very ignorant for trying it, and it shows the lack of knowledge of the Bible. Sorry for being so blunt about it but sometimes its easier that way

Of course then you would never know if he did answer prayer. Isn't that correct CrimsonPride? Sounds like willful ignorance to me.

nothing i said was ignorant. paul, i think it was paul, prayed to remove the thorn in his flesh, which is believed to be bad eyesight but it may be nowhere close, God didnt remove this "thorn in the flesh", so are you saying God didnt answer paul, i hope not. if you pray for a bike and dont get it, does that mean God doesnt answer prayer. if you pray for someone not to die and they do, does that mean he ignored you, no, it means his answer is no. So yes, you dont know if God necessarily says yes to a prayer, you dont pray to be well and then immediately youre well, you pray and keep praying and if God decides he wants you well then you will get well over time.

So you calling me ignorant really shows your lack of faith, your lack of faith to believe God will do the best thing even if its not what you think it is. God can say no to any prayer he wants, it doesnt mean he doesnt answer them, actually if you knew enough of the bible you would know this. So thank you for calling me ignorant and in course showing your own ignorance.

 

[anthony123]

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

How about the child who prays for the molester to stop or the woman who prays for the rapist to stop?

God chooses to not answer their prayer because they need to be raped and molested in order to teach them something?

There seems to be a lot of excuses for God and I believe yours are as manufactured as the others. God is a big boy, he can take some criticism. If he has a reason for not answering those prayers I'd like to know why.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I wonder if this has ever been done. If not, I think it would be awesome if a Christian interest group would fund a study.

For example, why not test the power of prayer amongst a group of 200 cancer patients in the same stage/age group/cancer type. 100 atheists and 100 protestant Christians. The hypothesis being that because of the power of prayer the group of 100 Christians will have a much higher cancer remission rate than that of the 100 atheists.

I think this would be an awesome way to scientifically prove the Supernatural and that the God of the Bible must exist.

Someone must have attempted this? If not, why not? Christians should have nothing to fear.

the problem with this would be that prayer doesnt depend on being a protestant or athiest it doesnt even depend only on having the right God although that is a part. But on the faith of the one praying

 

[CrimsonPride]

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

How about the child who prays for the molester to stop or the woman who prays for the rapist to stop?

God chooses to not answer their prayer because they need to be raped and molested in order to teach them something?

There seems to be a lot of excuses for God and I believe yours are as manufactured as the others. God is a big boy, he can take some criticism. If he has a reason for not answering those prayers I'd like to know why.

Oh i see youre an atheist coming here knowing nothing of the Bible trying to turn people away from God, way to fail. I have an easy answer for everything you just said but I wont dignify you with a response because until you actually care about what someone says and youre willing to listen then you have no reason to be here.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

How about the child who prays for the molester to stop or the woman who prays for the rapist to stop?

God chooses to not answer their prayer because they need to be raped and molested in order to teach them something?

There seems to be a lot of excuses for God and I believe yours are as manufactured as the others. God is a big boy, he can take some criticism. If he has a reason for not answering those prayers I'd like to know why.

well that is really untrue of you. You do not want to know why. You want to accuse your maker and try him to stand before YOU as His judge, but in truth you are not interested in His answer because you have already judged Him without His answer and His answer would not change your mind. No matter what His answer it would be nothing but cause for you to mock more. At least be honest with yourself.

 

[anthony123]

I am not an atheist, as a matter of fact I'm the son of a non-denominational protestant-Christian pastor and I'm not getting answers from this forum that make me feel good about Christianity.

Why can't we use logic when we read the Bible?..maybe it is not all God's word...maybe it doesn't have to all be correct to convey the message of Christ...shouldn't reason dominate...people do horrible things in the name of religion. Why can't Christians set the standard and simply let love dominate any interpretation of scripture that seems harsh towards others?

 

[CrimsonPride]

I am not an atheist, as a matter of fact I'm the son of a non-denominational protestant-Christian pastor and I'm not getting answers from this forum that make me feel good about Christianity.

Why can't we use logic when we read the Bible?..maybe it is not all God's word...maybe it doesn't have to all be correct to convey the message of Christ...shouldn't reason dominate...people do horrible things in the name of religion. Why can't Christians set the standard and simply let love dominate any interpretation of scripture that seems harsh towards others?

then why dont you ask your dad why dont people always get what they pray for. its obvious that you dont want to believe what i have told you is truth, according to the bible, and if you were a true christian then thats all that would matter. instead you go the way of logic which the bible doesnt have to follow logic, why you ask, cause its the bible, it is written with true inspiration from God, not what alot of people now claim. God doesnt have to answer every prayer yes, but he does answer every prayer. there is a gray area about if he hears all prayers from just anyone, to me atleast cause i never really studied it much, but i know he hears and answers every prayer from true christians, again not every person who claims to be a christian is one.

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I am not an atheist, as a matter of fact I'm the son of a non-denominational protestant-Christian pastor and I'm not getting answers from this forum that make me feel good about Christianity.

Why can't we use logic when we read the Bible?..maybe it is not all God's word...maybe it doesn't have to all be correct to convey the message of Christ...shouldn't reason dominate...people do horrible things in the name of religion. Why can't Christians set the standard and simply let love dominate any interpretation of scripture that seems harsh towards others?

being the child of a believers doesnt mean you are one. and doesnt give you any " credit". We either on our own believe GOD or we worship ourselves.
The reason that you cannot use your own logic is because the worlds wisdom is foolishness to God.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And exactly WHOSE logic would we use? Maybe we would each use our own logic. Maybe I could see perfect logic in one verse while you see no logic in it. They only "logic" that can be rightly used is that of the Holy Spirit compairing spiritual things with spiritual and that will not come from what you think or reason.
Should reason dominate? No. Do you know who the scriptures show that reason dominated with? The pharasees and scribes. Many times when Jesus spoke to them it says they reasoned within themselves, or amoungest themselves and they were always wrong and deceptive in that reasoning.We either accept ALL of the word of God or we are accepting none of it. If you accept part and throw part out then you come up with another Jesus of your own making which you form and craft in your mind as an idol Jesus that looks like what YOU fashion him to be. That is absoltuly no diffrent that what idolaters did when they made statues of diana and zeus.
It really does not matter to the truth what many have done in the name of religion.It only matters what is true religion.It is because men have done exactly what you are suggesting that we do, that men have done terrible things in the name of religion.It is because they threw away the parts that werent reasonable or logical to themselves and formed their own idea in the place of what they threw away. Then they could justify any actions they felt were good for themselves.

Do you think it is horrible to die for the name of Jesus?To lay down your life to suffer with him? Do you think it is horrible to turn the other cheeck, do good to all men, love your enemy? To be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves? To reisist not the evil man?Is it horrible to preach the gospel so people can be saved and to trust God to feed you clothe you protect you? Is it horrible to always forgive? Is it horrible to submit to the authorities over you whether they be governments, bosses, husbands, elders unless they tell you not to preach the name of Jesus then disobey them only in that?-THAT is the real Jesus and the real scriptures.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I can't understand how an atheist arrives at the conclusion that there is no God just because prayer is not answered. Makes no logical sense to me.