Bible Study Question for Greek experts concerning Eph 3:5?

[chessman]

Ephesians 3:5
English Standard Version (ESV)
the mystery of Christ
5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

Who does Paul mean by "holy apostles and prophets" exactly?

My thought is that he means all Past (dead) Holy Apostles and prophets not living ones. Here's why:

1. Was John the Baptist the last Holy Prophet or not?
And of course JTB was already dead at the time Paul wrote this.

2. Paul says: " 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight...
So Living Apostles and Prophets could read and perceive this insight from his writings if he meant them as in the sense of a 2nd Century apostle/prophet to a local church.

3. Why distinguish between "sons of men"(i.e. unsaved) in past generations and prophets and apostles within past generations, if he meant them from the past.

4. He calls them Holy (i.e. already de-fleshed).

5. Paul's already said:

Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
So he's referenced them as being what seems like those that are dead.

6. He clarifies that there are some that ascended with Jesus:
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

7. I'm not saying Paul and others do not apply the office of apostle/prophet to the living. But "Holy ApostlesProphets"?
Eph 4: 11 And he gave theapostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God

So my question is; is there anything in the Greek grammar that either supports or does not support my idea here?

 

[RevSRE]

NASV
Eph 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
NIV
Eph 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

There is a wonderful truth made known here. and yes JTB is commonly held to be the last Old Covenant Prophet.

We have to be very careful with Culture, History, and word definition. In this case the the sons of men is just that: like we mas mankind or people. There is just no more there.

BUT, Paul says there is a mystery. It was not made known to Old Covenant People. IT was taught to the Apostles and (Prophets) those in the Church that could understand the Prophets ie the gift of prophesy. The mystery is That ALL MEN OF ALL TIME were included in GODS GRACE All are saved in JESUS CHRIST and were always included.

My I suggest do not struggle with words Find, study, and thank God for the Mystery! All people of all times are saved be Grace! There has never been but one way.

 

[Deborah13]

One does not have to be died for God to declare them holy.

G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Believing God, in faith. When God spoke to the prophets and the apostles they believed Him, even unto death.

 

[Eugene]

I don't know one word of Greek, and with most Greeks and their accents I can scarcely understand their English. I reckon I 'll just spit out these following scriptures instead.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This acceptance of Gentiles certainly wasn't known to Israel:
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[chessman]

My question was about any evidence for who the Holy Apostles and prophets were. That is dead (OT) ones or NT ones or it be either or both. Aren't people assuming he means NT apostles/ prophets? If you think about it (not such a bad thing sometimes) there are several evidental points that might indicate he meant the OT prophets had that mystery revealed to them. Is there something in the original Greek's use of tensed verbs or predicates, etc. that either supports this idea or prevents it? I don't know. Sometimes the meaning is actually more clear when read in the Greek. That's all i meant.

I'm not Jewish so maybe it's not a fair comparison but frankly the idea of Jesus coming to save not just Jews but Gentiles is not that hard of a concept to grasp to me or any NT prophet, for that matter. It doesn't really take the Spirit to reveal that mystery to me so why should it have them? They could just read Paul's and Jesus', etc. words for that fact in those times. Though I'm sure they were just as hard headed as we are. It's hard to change minds so if they had it in their heads the Messiah was only for the Jews or God loved only a Jew, then I guess it might take the Spirit.

Now, on the otherhand, revealing it to a dead OT prophet; that would take the Spirit's work. Which is who Paul said revealed it to them.

BUT, Paul says there is a mystery. It was not made known to Old Covenant People. IT was taught to the Apostles and (Prophets) those in the Church...

See, that's my point. The text actually says it was a mystery. It wasn't any longer and Paul and others taught this former mystery and had written about it extensively.

You siad Paul taught it to the Apostles in the NT church. That's true. But the text actually says the Spirit revealed it to the Holy Apostles and Prophets. Aren't you assuming he meant NT ones?

 

[Eugene]

A prophet?

Strongs - One who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration.

This had to certainly pertain to the Apostle Paul when he said in Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The following is certainly pertaining to the NT prophets; that told by inspiration of God.

1Co_14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

 

[RevSRE]

NASV
Eph 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
NIV
Eph 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

Ok I will try once again. The "is" I used I think as Normal English usage, THERE IS A MYSTERY although solved the truth of the subject is still there.
To me it is a given that truth revealed to Paul and taught by him to others IS FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT!

In present terms 1. not revealed in times past, 2. now revealed ; must mean the ones God placed in authority in His Church.
a foreteller; by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet: - prophet. Having the gift of a prophet to preach and explain Gods word.
Do not try to read into words what is not there. Past present Apostle Prophet are NOT IMPORTANT!

Understand study KNOW THE MYSTERY All of ALL TIME are saved by GOD'S GRACE! Now that is something to get excited about write about and PREACH TO ALL!

 

[About the Son of God]

Ephesians 3:5
So my question is; is there anything in the Greek grammar that either supports or does not support my idea here?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/3-5.htm

The Greek is ambiguous, grammatically....
The only time clue in the whole sentence is "now" which can refer either to the "final age", which I don't think includes the time of John the Baptist; or it can refer to an "ongoing" present which is whenever Paul said it....

If the Greek has any other clues at all -- it's in the Jewish innuendo and not the literal meaning or grammar.

Consider: Biblically -- the word "Know" generally means to have had intimate personal experience with.
When scripture says "Adam knew his wife" -- it's not speaking about intellectual knowledge; but rather it means the intimate empirical knowledge Adam had of relations with Eve as husband and wife.

The word "KNOW" can also apply very strongly to a people and their God, and the convenant.
To know one's God, is to be faithful to them.

The word is so strongly understood that whenever Israel dallied with foreign God's -- the Prophets would often condemn them as guilty of "adultery". Israel is to KNOW the I AM as their God, and him alone.

So -- I point you to this Idea, as the first one that should come to mind when speaking of the old testament and "knowing"

The second word "Apocalypse" or ἀπ-ε-καλύφ-θη, also has a double meaning; for it is often used to describe a woman at a wedding who is "un-veiled", eg: having the covering (GK: kalypse) taken away (apo).
The word also means to uncover, or reveal, which can be taken in a generic sense to mean a prophecy.

So -- focus on the locus of the words (mouthfull, eh?!) The Spirit is the source of prophecy, and recall something that Jesus' covenant revealed which was never known before then: The idea of the Trinity.
The Trinity was not clearly unveiled until Jesus fulfilled all those mysterious prophecies in the old testament and demonstrated that the Holy Spirit was a person; a "someone" who is an advocate, and who we can actually sin against.

When Jesus talks about "Apostles and prophets in the Spirit"; That has a whole new meaning to Jewish converts to Christianity than it would have had before then.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Holy Apostles and prophets of the OT and NT were those who had the anointing of Gods Spirit whom revealed the mystery (truth) of his spoken word. I do not believe in prophets today as I believe Jesus was the last prophet, but also redeemer in whom was made the final sacrifice for our sin who now sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us before the Father. Ours now is a servants heart to the great commission of Matthew 25: 31-40; 28:18-20. It was Gods anointing through Jesus, just as it is now through us who have been baptized into the Holy Spirit who now dwells in us teaching us all mysteries (truth) of Gods word as truth only comes by the very Spirit of God teaching us all things, John 14:26.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.