question for trinitarians

[gingercat]

I believe early reformers were godly Christian leaders.

Did they interprete Jesus as God like trinitarians are claiming too?

Thank you. :D

 

[Georges]

I believe early reformers were godly Christian leaders.

I do as well....
Did they interprete Jesus as God like trinitarians are claiming too?

Some other questions need to be asked.....

1. How much of Judaism did men such as Luther (et al) know or understand?
2. Did men such as Luther (et al) know anything about Gnosticism when forming their theology?
3. Did men such as Luther (et al) know anything about Mystery Religion such as Mithraism when forming their theology?
4. Did men such as Luther (et al) know Religious and Governmental policies of the 1st century?

(et al) includes all of the Christian Father's post 1st century AD.

With the age of information...we have the abiltiy to inform ourselves concerning the questions above...our Christian Forefathers didn't have the resources available to them, therefore limiting them to form their theology with what they had....
Thank you. :D

 

[gingercat]

So georges,

They did not question about trinity or RCC did not even have trinity theology?

 

[Georges]

So georges,

They did not question about trinity or RCC did not even have trinity theology?

How would they know what to question......?

 

[Sothenes]

I believe early reformers were godly Christian leaders.

Did they interprete Jesus as God like trinitarians are claiming too?

Thank you. :D

Which reformers? How early?

Earthly people are fallible to sin and human understanding so they won't be the final arbiter of truth.

 

[gingercat]

How would they know what to question......?

I am only asking if they even had trinity theology, like Luther time.

 

[thessalonian]

I wouldn't call them reformers but don't try to twist them in to Arianism (which is what you hold). yes they did.


http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=7472

In these three articles God himself has revealed and opened to us the most profound depths of his fatherly heart, his sheer, unutterable love. . . . We could never come to recognize the Father's favor and grace were it not for the Lord Christ, who is a mirror of the Father's heart. Apart from him we see nothing but an angry and terrible Judge. But neither could we know anything of Christ, had it not been revealed by the Holy Spirit (Large Catechism II, 64, 65).







These are the three persons and one God, who has given himself to us all wholly and completely, with all that he is and has. The Father gives himself to us. . . . The Son himself subsequently gave himself. . . . The Holy Spirit comes and gives himself to us also, wholly and completely (Luther's Works, 37:366).

There of course is much more and I have little doudt with a little searching on the net I could find quotes by Calvin and Zwigli.

 

[thessalonian]

George, the mystery religion stuff is baloney!

 

[Sothenes]

How would they know what to question......?

I am only asking if they even had trinity theology, like Luther time.

A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil, 1522

[The following sermon is taken from volume III:406-421 of The Sermons of Martin Luther, published by Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, MI). It was originally published in 1907 in english by Lutherans in All Lands Press (Minneapolis, MN), as The Precious and Sacred Writings of Martin Luther, vol. 12. The pagination from the Baker edition has been maintained for referencing. This e-text was scanned and edited by Richard Bucher, it is in the public domain and it may be copied and distributed without restriction.]

Page 406 ---------------------------

I. THE HOLY TRINITY.

I. Today we celebrate the festival of the Holy Trinity, to which we must briefly allude, so that we may not celebrate it in vain. It is indeed true that the name "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man. For this reason it sounds some-

Page 407 ---------------------------

what cold and we had better speak of "God" than of the "Trinity."

2. This word signifies that there are three persons in God. It is a heavenly mystery which the world cannot understand. I have often told you that this, as well as every other article of faith, must not be based upon reason or comparisons, but must be understood and established by means of passages from the Scriptures, for God has the only perfect knowledge and knows how to speak concerning himself.

http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/Martin ... _1_15.html

 

[gingercat]

I wouldn't call them reformers

Who are you talking to? If it is me, of course I call them reformers because they fought against RCC; they did not succomb into hypocricy.

 

[thessalonian]

I wouldn't call them reformers

Who are you talking to? If it is me, of course I call them reformers because they fought against RCC; they did not succomb into hypocricy.

I know, everyone who fights the RCC is good. RCC people are bad. We have horns. Have you ever read about Martin Luther and some of the statements he made and the way he treated people he didn't agree with. Did you know that at his words the German Goverment killed over 100,000 people who did exactly what he told them to do. Interpret the Bible themselves. Zwingli and Luther were hardly friends.

Instead of one Pope they caused there to be 300 million. No, they were deformers.

Ginger, I've come to the conclusion that you come to conclusions without any real knowledge of anything. Sad but true.

blessings though.

 

[Sothenes]

I wouldn't call them reformers

Who are you talking to? If it is me, of course I call them reformers because they fought against RCC; they did not succomb into hypocricy.

Is The Creedal Doctrine Of The Trinity Biblical?
By Bob Passantino, © 1992

http://answers.org/theology/trinity_biblical.html

 

[gingercat]

Did you know that at his words the German Goverment killed over 100,000 people who did exactly what he told them to do.

I dont just swallow a Catholics' information.

Is he telling the truth, anyone?

 

[thessalonian]

Did you know that at his words the German Goverment killed over 100,000 people who did exactly what he told them to do.

I dont just swallow a Catholics' information.

Is he telling the truth, anyone?

Oh, by all means. Us Catholics are most definitely all liars. So do some study on your own.

You don't mind if I point you to just one of the many articles I hope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

In Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants (1525), he encouraged the nobility to visit swift and bloody punishment upon the peasants. Many of the revolutionaries considered Luther's words a betrayal. Others withdrew once they realized that there was neither support from the Church nor from its main opponent. The war in Germany ended in 1525, when rebel forces were put down by the armies of the Swabian League.

 

[Sothenes]

Did you know that at his words the German Goverment killed over 100,000 people who did exactly what he told them to do. Interpret the Bible themselves. Zwingli and Luther were hardly friends.

I would like to see some documentation to that.

I think the problem of Luther was theological in his dealings with the Jews.

 

[thessalonian]

The part about Zwingli?

I already posted a bit of info on the peasants. It was on Channel 2 last year in their documentary on Luther as well.

 

[Sothenes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

In Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants (1525), he encouraged the nobility to visit swift and bloody punishment upon the peasants. Many of the revolutionaries considered Luther's words a betrayal. Others withdrew once they realized that there was neither support from the Church nor from its main opponent. The war in Germany ended in 1525, when rebel forces were put down by the armies of the Swabian League.

Who wrote the Wikipedia article?

 

[thessalonian]

I don't know. But here are the words straight from the horses mouth:

In the third place, they cloak this terrible and horrible sin with the gospel, call themselves “Christian brethren,â€Â7 take oaths and submit to them, and compel people to go along with them in these abominations. Thus they become the worst blasphemers of God and slanderers of his holy name. Under the outward appearance of the gospel, they honor and serve the devil, thus deserving death in body and soul ten times over. I have never heard of a more hideous sin. I suspect that the devil feels that the Last Day is coming. and therefore he undertakes such an unheard‑of act, as though saying to himself, “This is the end, therefore it shall be the worst; I will stir up the dregs and knock out the bottom.â€Â8 God will guard us against him! See what a mighty prince the devil is, how he has the world in his hands and can throw everything into confusion, when he can so quickly catch so many thousands of peasants, deceive them, blind them, harden them, and throw them into revolt, and do with them whatever his raging fury under­takes.

Here is the whole thing:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/louthan/R ... sants.html

 

[thessalonian]

Ran in to some more on Luther.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... vinity.txt

A debate with a non-trinitarian he had:

27. For those who say that Christ is a creature according to the
old use of language, that is, by himself [separatam], were never Christians.


Christians indeed say that Christ according to his
humanity is a creature, but they immediately add that Christ according to his
divinity is the Creator, etc. Therefore the human nature is not to be spoken
of apart from the divinity. The humanity is not a person, but a nature.


Guess that about settles the matter on Luther, hey ginger?

 

[thessalonian]

Calvin on the Trinity and Jesus divinity:

http://www.piney.com/HsCalInst13.html

"The Son called God and Jehovah. Other names of the Eternal Father applied to him in the Old Testament. He is, therefore, the Eternal God. Another objection refuted. Case of the Jews explained. "

"The angel who appeared to the fathers under the Law asserts that he is Jehovah. That angel was the Logos of the Eternal Father. The Son being that Logos is Eternal God. Impiety of Servetus "

Oh by the way, Servetus is an interesting case. He was tried at the Genva Inquisition. No it wasn't a Catholic inquisition, but a Protestant one. Calvin was there in fact. He was not in favor of the cruel manner in which they were going to do away with Servetus, that of a pile of wood, some lighter fluid, and matches. He prefered a more docile manner of experation. Hanging by the neck till dead. Hotter heads did prevail however. :-D . Servetus didn't believe in the trinity.

http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2003/10 ... 2003.shtml

Wonder if Calvin thought he was a Christian. Not likely. :o

Blessings