Question

[JM]

Pls! Read the scriptures quoted ONLY, and then vote.

Matthew 24:27-40

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

"Does this passage refer to the glorious return of Christ as recorded in Revelation 19:11-21, or does it refer to the rapture of the saints as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17."

 

[Georges]

JM...this is Jewish eschatology....can I speak? It is very important to the scripture presented.....I will not before you give the ok...it is important to label Jewish idioms concerned.

But I vote....2nd coming and other....(no rapture).

Did you want discussion.

 

[Vic C.]

Jason, I voted "other" and if you will allow me a moment, I will explain why I did.

I see Matthew 24:27-31 as the harpazio. I see the rest as events that follow the harpazio. I don't see the harpazio as The Second Coming. This is one point in which I differ from standard Pre-wrath teaching.

I believe the rest of the passage (and the verses I'm not supposed to comment on) describe the Sheep and Goat judgement. The ones taken... bad (goats). The ones left... good (sheep).

 

[JM]

JM...this is Jewish eschatology....can I speak? It is very important to the scripture presented.....I will not before you give the ok...it is important to label Jewish idioms concerned.

But I vote....2nd coming and other....(no rapture).

Did you want discussion.

Please do G. :D George, you once wrote something like, "it's possible for a pretrib rapture but I doubt it..." and it was in relation to the feasts. Would you explain?

Peace,

jm

 

[Orates]

I Vote For Both

Matthew 24:27-40

This is how I see these scriptures...

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (2nd) coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles (actually vultures in Greek, which feast upon the carcases of the slain on the battlefields of Israel- see Exekial 38.) be gathered together (at Armageddon).
29Immediately after the tribulation (persecution of Saints and Jews) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (the Wrath):
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (2nd Coming).
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (Last Trumpet), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (1st Resurrection/Rapture).
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree (nation Israel); When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (when Israel recaptured Jerusalem in 1967), ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation (the ones seeing this) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Noah was not taken by surprise- just the unbelievers and scoffers- the same as today.)
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left (The one who is taken might represent the Jews in Israel who are taken to be killed in Jacob's Trouble. The one who is left could represent the Jews who convert when they see their Messiah coming to rescue them at the 2nd Coming. See Zach- last Chapter)

Orates

 

[Darrell dunn]

This is the second coming of Christ.

And when he is gathering the saints they are in Heaven not earth.

Read v 31

Jesus was giving a overall picture of the future not detailed account you go to the book of Rev. for the play by play account.

I have 6 or 7 version of the Bible and I don't have some of these storys that I have read here in any of my Bibles.

We need to come to the fact that God dose have control of the Bible and there is nothing there by accident, or without reason.

 

[Vic C.]

Matthew 24:31

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends. (Green's Literal translation-LITV)

31and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof. (Young's literal Translation-YLT)

Now compare it to:

16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; (YLT)

16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.
17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. (LITV)

Jesus comes down from Heaven and gathers the elect from the clouds (heavens) to take them home to Heaven.

There's nothing in the previous verses of Matthew 24 or 1 Thess 4 that even hints the elect are already in Heaven.

 

[Georges]

Pls! Read the scriptures quoted ONLY, and then vote.

Matthew 24:27-40

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

"Does this passage refer to the glorious return of Christ as recorded in Revelation 19:11-21, or does it refer to the rapture of the saints as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17."

It most definetely concerns the 2nd coming of Messiah...however, it is not a rapture passage (in the classic sense) in which belivers are taken to heaven.

Consider Mat 24's sister passage....

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.

When Jesus is speaking of where the Eagles are gathered, he is using a Jewish idiom denoting the "Feast of Leviathan". The "Feast of Leviathan" in Jewish eschatology occurs during the Messianic Kingdom era...There is way to much on this to put here, but during the Messianic Kingdom, Leviathan will be slain to provide food for the Great Banquet where all the patriarch's will eat with the ressurected righteous, and Messiah. The Feast of Leviathan occurs simultaneous with the Wedding Feast of Messiah. This occurs during that period of time that the present day Feast of Tabernacles occurs...in other words, the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles is a representation of life in the Messianic Kingdom (1000 yrs). Leviathan in the OT represents the Beast in Revelation.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

I digress, First off...in Jewish mythology, Leviatian is a 7 headed beast that lives in the sea...sound familiar (Rev 13), and the Feast of Leviathan is developed in the OT.

This is developed from Job 41....

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft [words] unto thee?
Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Job 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as [with] a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
Job 41:6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?

Notice the term in verse 41:1 "make a covenant" as echoed in Dan..

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

before I leave Job....consider the last verse...it refers to Pharoah and his godlike stature and pride...exactly how the future false messiah will be...

Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the children of pride.

Pharoah is equated with Leviathan (the beast of Rev 13)....

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

Isaiah 27 is a Messianic Kingdom passage....at the start of the passage, the Lord destroy's Leviathan and the subsequent verses, are Messianic Kingdom related...

and another Messianic Kingdom passage....

Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. [Art] thou not it that hath cut Rahab, [and] wounded the dragon?

Rahab (an Hebrew term for Egypt)....the dragon is Leviathan.

and the Feast of Leviathan is mostly seen here....

Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
Eze 29:4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
Eze 29:5 And I will leave thee [thrown] into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.

There is way too much to show how the OT Leviathan equates the the NT False Messiah...and how the Feast of Leviathan is in fact the same as the banquet for the birds...

Back to...Mat 24:40 and Luke 17:37....who is taken and who is left....In all actuality, the righteous are left and the wicked are taken to where the eagles are...that is they are bird food.

So, this is not the rapture of the righteous, but the rapture of the wicked to the Feast of Leviathan.


Having said that, there should be a rapture of the righteous....most likely 5-15 days before this event. If the Feast of Leviathan (wicked are taken) occurs at the Feast of Tabernacles (Tishri 15), the second coming should be on (Tishri 10) and the Rapture/Resurrection (Tishri 1-2?).

Bottom line...there is no Christianity involved with any of these passages...this is Jewish terminology (Jesus and the disciples were Jews) and should be interpreted as such....

Just a show of hands...how many out there in forumland...know anything about th Feast of Leviathan...or how the Beast from the Sea (Rev 13) equates to him? I'm guessing if you were like I was...an average every Sunday going Christian...you've never heard of this before...

Study Jewish eschatology....I guarantee you these passages will open up.

 

[Vic C.]

Back to...Mat 24:40 and Luke 17:37....who is taken and who is left....In all actuality, the righteous are left and the wicked are taken to where the eagles are...that is they are bird food.

I like that! The goats become bird food. :

Just a show of hands...how many out there in forumland...know anything about th Feast of Leviathan...or how the Beast from the Sea (Rev 13) equates to him? I'm guessing if you were like I was...an average every Sunday going Christian...you've never heard of this before...

Don't worry, I'm learning. It takes some time to retrain the way one thinks about End Times.

 

[Georges]

Back to...Mat 24:40 and Luke 17:37....who is taken and who is left....In all actuality, the righteous are left and the wicked are taken to where the eagles are...that is they are bird food.

I like that! The goats become bird food. :

[quote:bb445]Just a show of hands...how many out there in forumland...know anything about th Feast of Leviathan...or how the Beast from the Sea (Rev 13) equates to him? I'm guessing if you were like I was...an average every Sunday going Christian...you've never heard of this before...

Don't worry, I'm learning. It takes some time to retrain the way one thinks about End Times.[/quote:bb445]

All I meant by the "show of hands" was that Christians in general think they hold the market in eschatology, not realizing that there is a whole different school of eschatology in Judaism...

As I had said...Christian eschatology is fine if it is in line with Jewish eschatology....however, Jewish eschatology should be the foundation blocks upon which to build proper prophecy descernment...

 

[Vic C.]

As I had said...Christian eschatology is fine if it is in line with Jewish eschatology....however, Jewish eschatology should be the foundation blocks upon which to build proper prophecy descernment...

Quick question, how does progressive revelation fit into this line of thinking?

 

[Georges]

As I had said...Christian eschatology is fine if it is in line with Jewish eschatology....however, Jewish eschatology should be the foundation blocks upon which to build proper prophecy descernment...

Quick question, how does progressive revelation fit into this line of thinking?

Progressive revelation....IMO doesn't...the only thing progressive IMO is an individual learning new (to them) concepts therefore allowing them to interpret scripture (or prophecy), thus helping them discern possible contemporary fulfillment. I don't think there is anything "new" to be interpreted, just recognition when it occurs....I have to think about that though.....

Progressive revelation is a term made up by theologians to justify Paul's superceeding the Torah or even Jesus' words...

Is progressive revelation the term you meant?

I guess in the light of prophetical events occuring that jive with scripture that no one had considered before....it is possible for PR...

 

[Quasar]

Post subject

Hi guys,

Jesus ministry covering Mt.24:27-40 is about the prophecy of His Second Coming to the earth, as seen in Zech.14:4-5, where the actual location of it is revealed to be the Mount of Olives, from where He ascended. It has nothing at all to do with His Church which did not yet exist, at all. [1 Thes.4:14-18 cannot be equated with the above at all and is about a pre-trib rapture].

Jesus stated in a couple of places that 'He was sent ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL" [Mt.15:24]. And the orders He gave to His disciples, not to go among the Gentiles, or to any town of the Samaritans, but rather, only to the lost sheep of Israel [Mt.10:5-6].

His ministry is also for His Church, but it was for the 'Jew first, and then the Gentile,' and for the latter, mostly the Gospel as other teachings were exclusively for Israel only.

May I point out here as well, there are two ELECTS, Israel and the Church. Reference to Israel, as in Isa.45:4 and 65:9, 22 as well as Mt.24:22 and 31. For the Church, as in Rom.8:33, Co.3:12 and 1 Pet.1:2. It is in Mt.24:22 and 31 that too many get thrown off track, believing the Church is the only Elect of God, and therefore, are going to go through the tribulation, which is false.

When Rev.19:14 is read carefully, it reveals Jesus is returning in His Second Coming to the earth, with His raptured saints all following Him, on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean [The sign of the righteous acts of the saints, Rev.19:8 NIV], from heaven, where they have been, preceding the revealing of the Antichrist, who then triggers the tribulation [Dan.9:27 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. Which the Scriptures clearly reveal to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

Peace,

Quasar

 

[JM]

Ac 11:26 "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

8-)

 

[Vic C.]

Matthew 16:18 :-D j/k

I see it as ONE elect; two folds which one day will all be under one flock and One Shepherd.

Which the Scriptures clearly reveal to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

If it is clear, why all the arguing? I say it not clear at all. I say a Pre-Trib rapture is a stretch of the imagination by those who are fearful of having their Faith tested during the time Antichrist is persecuting Saints. There is no concrete proof in the Bible and I know Walvoord would agree to that. There is not one verse that outright says we will escape the Tribulation. The assumption that we will be exempt from this Tribulation is just that... an assumption. IMO, it makes a mockery of all those who put their Faith in Jesus over and above their life... and it cost them that life.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

The only difference in that sort of trial and tribulation and what is to come is the scale of it all.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I like what George said a while back... "it is mostly about Israel, the church is just along for the ride" 8-)

read nothing into my "tone" please, I'm just being blunt.

George - this is where I'm coming from on the PR thingy:

http://www.endtimes.org/progressive.html

 

[JM]

I like what George said a while back... "it is mostly about Israel, the church is just along for the ride"

That's the WHOLE argument. Is the Church along for the ride? Is the Church a mystery that is removed or is it spiritual Israel and how does that affect ethnic Israel's prophecy?

:morning:

 

[Georges]

I like what George said a while back... "it is mostly about Israel, the church is just along for the ride"

That's the WHOLE argument. Is the Church along for the ride? Is the Church a mystery that is removed or is it spiritual Israel and how does that affect ethnic Israel's prophecy?

:morning:

JM, hopefully you will have read the pdf that I sent you....I really don't know how modern Pauline Christianity fits in the future...(if Paul has taught falsely then everything changes...how I don't know....if God judges the motive (intent) of believers then it may not matter, regardless of Paul). Of course I made that statement based on the pdf I sent you...

Having said that, Nazarene Judaism (James, Peter and the Jerusalem Church) is what Chrisianity should have been....a Torah observant group comprized of Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus as the Messiah. It is quite clear Israel will be the head of the nations during the Messianic Millennial Kingdom era...Nazarene Judaism will be the prevailing practice.

Having said that will Pauline Christianity convert back to Nazarene Judaism? I don't think they will have much choice....

 

[JM]

What if what you pdf is saying is true, but more importantly, what if what Paul is saying is also true...and the Jewish dispensation has been set aside until after the rapture?
http://www.trianglebiblechurch.org/New/ ... meline.gif

I've read thru the pdf and have read similar things in the past.

At least prewrath has made sense of Paul.

 

[Georges]

What if what you pdf is saying is true, but more importantly, what if what Paul is saying is also true...and the Jewish dispensation has been set aside until after the rapture?

I don't know JM....I still contend that the Great Whore of Babylon may be Pauline Christianity....when the Great Whore (including those who follow the teachings of Paul) is destroyed who will be left? My guess is the future Nazarene Jews (ie the 144000 or those associated with those who obey Torah and follow Christ). Are they the ones who will be raptured before the wrath? Possibly....

http://www.trianglebiblechurch.org/New/ ... meline.gif

I've read thru the pdf and have read similar things in the past.

What did you think about the eerie comparision/similarities between Paul and Balaam? Very coincidental....as my previous exit verse from ecc stated, that what happened before will happen again...did it with Balaam and Paul?

At least prewrath has made sense of Paul.

JM...I don't necessarily discount all of what Paul states...As I've always said, I glean what I can from Paul as useful...if it agrees with the Law and Prophets, Jesus and the Church at Jerusalem...

Paul does use Feast Day terminology (somewhat)...in his timing of end time events...

 

[Vic C.]

... At least prewrath has made sense of Paul.

Yes, I believe they put much of Paul's End Times "views" into proper perspective.

... I don't know JM....I still contend that the Great Whore of Babylon may be Pauline Christianity....when the Great Whore (including those who follow the teachings of Paul) is destroyed who will be left? My guess is the future Nazarene Jews (ie the 144000 or those associated with those who obey Torah and follow Christ). Are they the ones who will be raptured before the wrath? Possibly....

Heh, you all know my beliefs on that, so I won't rehash. I will say I don't believe the 144,000 are in any way part of the harpazio. I think that takes them away from their purpose during the Wrath.

JM...I don't necessarily discount all of what Paul states...As I've always said, I glean what I can from Paul as useful...if it agrees with the Law and Prophets, Jesus and the Church at Jerusalem...

Paul does use Feast Day terminology (somewhat)...in his timing of end time events...

Yes he does. I just 'wish' he would have elaborated a bit on some things, like the "last Trump" and the apostasy (falling away) Too many Bible "students" do not take into consideration what this all meant to the people 2,000 years ago. They try to squeeze in 19th. and 20th. century thinking into 2,000 year old and older terminology.

I'm certain the people of Paul's time knew EXACTLY what he was trying to convey to them. When I read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 I get the impression the people though they missed the Second Coming. Paul was telling they didn't miss anything because two things MUST happen first;

a falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin.

Anything other than that above would be a waste of Paul's words. Why would Paul tell them they will be "whisked" away from the very events he tells them must happen first. Why bother??? duh Was Paul rubbing in their faces the "fact" that if they witnessed these events, they missed the train, so to speak? Duh x 2. lol