Question

[Georges]

... At least prewrath has made sense of Paul.

Yes, I believe they put much of Paul's End Times "views" into proper perspective.

... I don't know JM....I still contend that the Great Whore of Babylon may be Pauline Christianity....when the Great Whore (including those who follow the teachings of Paul) is destroyed who will be left? My guess is the future Nazarene Jews (ie the 144000 or those associated with those who obey Torah and follow Christ). Are they the ones who will be raptured before the wrath? Possibly....

Heh, you all know my beliefs on that, so I won't rehash. I will say I don't believe the 144,000 are in any way part of the harpazio. I think that takes them away from their purpose during the Wrath.

Yeh...I know your perspective, still it is something (albeit unpleasant) to think about...I agree with your statement about the 144000. I only bought up the 144000 because they are a model of what Nazarene Judaism will be...I believe that non Jewish people who wish to be in that group (associated with that group would be more proper) will proselyte....I believe that will be their mission...just like it was the mission of the 12 Apostles....they were a Nazarene Jewish bunch....

JM...I don't necessarily discount all of what Paul states...As I've always said, I glean what I can from Paul as useful...if it agrees with the Law and Prophets, Jesus and the Church at Jerusalem...

Paul does use Feast Day terminology (somewhat)...in his timing of end time events...

Yes he does. I just 'wish' he would have elaborated a bit on some things, like the "last Trump" and the apostasy (falling away) Too many Bible "students" do not take into consideration what this all meant to the people 2,000 years ago. They try to squeeze in 19th. and 20th. century thinking into 2,000 year old and older terminology.

Agreed...

I'm certain the people of Paul's time knew EXACTLY what he was trying to convey to them. When I read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 I get the impression the people though they missed the Second Coming. Paul was telling they didn't miss anything because two things MUST happen first;

a falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin.

I tend to go with the thought that Apostacy (in greek) also means Departure (when tied in with 2 th 2:1) and not defection from the faith. But in light of Paul's departure from the faith as established by Jesus through the early Nazarenes, it may well be a falling away...

Anything other than that above would be a waste of Paul's words. Why would Paul tell them they will be "whisked" away from the very events he tells them must happen first. Why bother??? duh Was Paul rubbing in their faces the "fact" that if they witnessed these events, they missed the train, so to speak? Duh x 2. lol

 

[Vic C.]

I tend to go with the thought that Apostacy (in greek) also means Departure (when tied in with 2 th 2:1) and not defection from the faith. But in light of Paul's departure from the faith as established by Jesus through the early Nazarenes, it may well be a falling away...

Well it certainly is in line with this:

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


Sidenote: I read somewhere today that the Nazarenes believed Jesus was both Messiah and God. What do you know about this?

 

[Georges]

I tend to go with the thought that Apostacy (in greek) also means Departure (when tied in with 2 th 2:1) and not defection from the faith. But in light of Paul's departure from the faith as established by Jesus through the early Nazarenes, it may well be a falling away...

Well it certainly is in line with this:

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


Sidenote: I read somewhere today that the Nazarenes believed Jesus was both Messiah and God. What do you know about this?

The Nazarenes chruch today is not the same group as the early Nazarenes...it is a relatively new group.